National Forum

Tailteann Cup - Tier 2

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Replying To Htaem:  "To be fair, I'd imagine a lot of people put the time and effort into coaching and development at a young age in those counties and do so for no financial gain.

Now if you don't have a problem with Div 3 & 4 counties being removed from the championship proper then that's ok, that's your opinion. But personally I think removing them will in no way magically increase their interest in some token B competition, in fact I think it will do the exact opposite, I think it will further damage interest in those counties.

We need to stop listening to pundits who continue to push this idea that a 2nd tier will work in championship football and recognise that we already have an excellent tiered competition in the NFL (that could be marketed and promoted a lot better) and that we do not need another tiered competition."
The NFL 4x8 could be more interesting too if there were Playoffs - keeping more teams in the hunt -
say, in Playoff SFs. 7th in a div hosts 4th from div below and 2nd hosts 3rd in div below - both winners to Playoff Final (hosted by higher seed).
Or, treat both SFs as 2 Finals instead - so you could have 3 going up (1st, 4th and the 2nd/3rd winner).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1797 - 30/07/2020 16:01:02    2285856

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As someone from Antrim I'm not actually against a tiered championship.

I think there's a lot of sense to a tiered championship.

It has to be done right though.

The focus can't be on tiering for tiering sake or tiering to stop drubbings.

On their day the Dublin, Kerry's and time a lesser extent Mayo, Tyrone and Donegal can hand out a beating to all but the top teams.

Kerry or Dublin can hand out a beating to any other team in the country.

The motivation for a tiered championship should be that the top tier competition could do with being improved. I think that's the big problem here. The All Ireland currently is a Frankenstein's monster of a competition.

It needs to be reformed because it's not a good competition.

You can get buy in to a tier 2 if the prize for promotion from tier 2 were entry to an attractive tier 1 competition.

I think that's what's missing here.

I also just agree with Htaem that the NFL is a really good tiered competition and if the intercounty season were 5 months long from April to August with current league played in April and May, then that'd be a whole lot better season for those playing intercounty at all levels.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 30/07/2020 16:46:40    2285864

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Also let's not kid ourselves here that the introduction of this competition is solely for the good of weaker teams.

It's also an attempt to level the playing field so top Ulster counties don't have to go through a protracted qualifier series to get to the All Ireland.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 30/07/2020 16:48:49    2285866

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Replying To Htaem:  "Jaysus that must have been quite surreal, watching a handle fly off a cup that's supposed to mean something, just goes to show the Gaa's indifference.

There's no doubt that there's a push to create an elite championship, but the less successful counties need to push back against it because it won't benefit them in the long run. Now to the counter to that is the tired old trope of 'ah sure they had no hope of winning it anyway', but that's not the point, in fact that would exclude bascially every county in Ireland bar Dublin at the minute!

Point is if you remove half the country from a championship that's been running since 1887 then you will kill much of the interest in those countys."
" you remove half the country from a championship that's been running since 1887 then you will kill much of the interest in those countys."

That would be true but it's only been in quite recent times that there were championships with every team playing in it. Kilkenny for example haven't played in it since the 80's. Now i know Kilkenny are different when it comes to football, but it's not true to say every county has been playing in the championship since day one.

Using the FA Cup as an example also doesn't stand up, as Teams outside of the top two divisions have their own cup companions they play in with the finals in Wembley etc

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 377 - 30/07/2020 18:51:32    2285882

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Replying To wicklowsupport:  "oneoff, what I am saying is that I don't think the second tier championship is the right option. As to whether it will work is down to how it is run and how the players buy into it. In the past, it was run off out of sight and out of mind, as a result it failed - quite rightly. If the GAA go down the same route with the latest installment then I believe it will suffer the same fate. The GAA is unique in the sense that where you are born determines who you play for regardless of how good you are. This is the strength of the GAA but in another way it is a weakness. I personally think that if a player in a so called weaker county is expected to put in the same effort for six months then that player should be afforded the same opportunity to play in the championship especially if they are playing for a weaker team due to where they are born. Maybe it is not logical but as I have pointed out on a post, success to a player in a weaker county isn't always measured in terms of silverware. If it were then a lot of weaker counties would have ceased to exist a long time ago. The highlight for such a player may be pulling off a shock in a Leinster championship. People talk about weaker counties but if you were to remove Dublin from the Leinster championship, I believe that some Wicklow players would believe that they could pull off a shock against any of the other counties at this moment in time or in a qualifier for that matter. Chances are that it wouldn't happen very often but the odds are not as long as some people in the GAA think. Yes, of course, if WIcklow played Dublin tomorrow, they would be hammered but there are a lot of other counties in other provinces that would suffer the same fate. As I say, maybe I am old fashioned but I am not convinced that the second tier championship is the right option especially if winning it doesn't allow you back into the all Ireland championship. Despite what people say about the tiered championship being a success. One of the counties you reference, Carlow were demoted from the Leinster championship last year for finishing bottom despite putting in good performances especially against Galway while Waterford who finished bottom in Munster remained in the Munster championship. Different rules in the same competition - that doesn't seem to me like the GAA helping the weaker teams to advance, it sounds like protecting the elite counties at all cost."
The fact that teams in Munster more or less can't be relegated couldn't be happening, remember even if Kerry win the McDonagh Cup they still have to beat the last placed team in Munster, but that's more down the GAA being afraid of upsetting them. There was a case of Wexford and Antrim straight out refusing to play a relegation play-off circa 2008. But still the likes of Carlow wouldn't be able to get anyway competitive had it not been for the Ring Cup etc

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 377 - 30/07/2020 19:36:59    2285886

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Replying To Htaem:  "We spent a season in Division 3 ourselves in 2013, now that's fine we deserved to be there. But if that then meant we also had to play in some mickey mouse cup competition in the summer rather than the All-Ireland proper, that would have been a disaster for us!"
Meath wouldn't have been playing in tier 2 that year as they made the Leinster final anyway. When they were beaten their only game in the backdoor was a defeat to Tyrone, I'm not sure why missing that would be considered a disaster.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2409 - 30/07/2020 19:52:54    2285887

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Replying To Htaem:  "We spent a season in Division 3 ourselves in 2013, now that's fine we deserved to be there. But if that then meant we also had to play in some mickey mouse cup competition in the summer rather than the All-Ireland proper, that would have been a disaster for us!"
Absolutely it would have been a total disaster.

How long are Sky showing our games now? It must be 5-6 years surely, obviously they looked into our championship and saw a "product" they liked and wanted to pay for and market so why then do the gaa go and make this change.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 10997 - 30/07/2020 21:08:26    2285899

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Replying To oneoff:  "" you remove half the country from a championship that's been running since 1887 then you will kill much of the interest in those countys."

That would be true but it's only been in quite recent times that there were championships with every team playing in it. Kilkenny for example haven't played in it since the 80's. Now i know Kilkenny are different when it comes to football, but it's not true to say every county has been playing in the championship since day one.

Using the FA Cup as an example also doesn't stand up, as Teams outside of the top two divisions have their own cup companions they play in with the finals in Wembley etc"
I haven't used the FA cup as an example, it's a different sport in a different country, nothing to do with the Gaa.

Again, I'm not opposed to making changes to the structure of the championship, but I am opposed to introducing a tiered championship. Especially considering we already have an excellent tiered competition in the League, which seems to be completely ignored by those you also want a tiered championship, why is this?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 09:19:51    2285927

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Replying To Soma:  "Meath wouldn't have been playing in tier 2 that year as they made the Leinster final anyway. When they were beaten their only game in the backdoor was a defeat to Tyrone, I'm not sure why missing that would be considered a disaster."
Under the current Tommy Murphy cup 2 then yes that is correct.

However in the long run I fear there will be a push to section the championship off into upper and lower tiers of 16 each anf under such a structure we would be condemned to a mickey mouse cup competition.

Make no mistake that would be a disaster for Meath football, and to some counties who may never play a big championship team again!

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 09:22:45    2285928

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "Absolutely it would have been a total disaster.

How long are Sky showing our games now? It must be 5-6 years surely, obviously they looked into our championship and saw a "product" they liked and wanted to pay for and market so why then do the gaa go and make this change."
It's a strange one alright, I'd say you could count on one hand the amount of Tommy Murphy 2 games will make it to tv. Same as the lower tier hurling championship games which I don't think I've ever seen on tv.

The Gaa and the broadcasters could do far more to promote our games in my opinion. The champsionship has been a big deal for a long time (although apparently we're now meant to believe that some teams don't deserve to play in it) but the league is very under promoted (RTE disregarded it for decades only taking an interest in the last few years).

I'd love to see a more compact intercounty scene if possible, run from maybe May to August (or thereabouts), just league and champsionship (no replays), scrap the rest. Would be ideal time of the year for attending games and would leave ample time for club.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 09:32:43    2285929

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Replying To Htaem:  "I haven't used the FA cup as an example, it's a different sport in a different country, nothing to do with the Gaa.

Again, I'm not opposed to making changes to the structure of the championship, but I am opposed to introducing a tiered championship. Especially considering we already have an excellent tiered competition in the League, which seems to be completely ignored by those you also want a tiered championship, why is this?"
Replying To KingdomBoy1: "100% Htaem, we have to look at the championship in football like the FA Cup in English soccer as its all in, how often does 1 of the non traditional English soccer teams win the FA cup? Not very often.



Exactly, that's what I love about cup football, it affords teams an opportunity to play against the big boys, that league football (while excellent for different reasons) just doesn't.

You're agreeing here with someone who's using the FA CUp as an example are you not?

You keep saying you're ''not not opposed to making changes to the structure of the championship'' yet say nothing as to what these chamges would be.

You also keep going on about the league. That's a totally different competition with nothing to do with the championship at the moment. Why are you and others so obsessed with this idea of teams ''having a right'' to play in the senior championship?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 377 - 31/07/2020 10:18:37    2285932

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Replying To Htaem:  "It's a strange one alright, I'd say you could count on one hand the amount of Tommy Murphy 2 games will make it to tv. Same as the lower tier hurling championship games which I don't think I've ever seen on tv.

The Gaa and the broadcasters could do far more to promote our games in my opinion. The champsionship has been a big deal for a long time (although apparently we're now meant to believe that some teams don't deserve to play in it) but the league is very under promoted (RTE disregarded it for decades only taking an interest in the last few years).

I'd love to see a more compact intercounty scene if possible, run from maybe May to August (or thereabouts), just league and champsionship (no replays), scrap the rest. Would be ideal time of the year for attending games and would leave ample time for club."
Again the teams who will be playing in it aren't getting coverage the way things are at the moment? So again do they want move coverage or what is it they actually want? Only recently we've seen players from ''weaker counties'' come out and say they don't actually deserve coverage with the way things are.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 377 - 31/07/2020 10:22:03    2285934

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Replying To Htaem:  "Under the current Tommy Murphy cup 2 then yes that is correct.

However in the long run I fear there will be a push to section the championship off into upper and lower tiers of 16 each anf under such a structure we would be condemned to a mickey mouse cup competition.

Make no mistake that would be a disaster for Meath football, and to some counties who may never play a big championship team again!"
You're just changing the subject of your posts now. You clearly said that Meath in 2013 would have played in the second tier had there been one. When you're shown it actually wouldn't have been any different you bring up something else.

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 377 - 31/07/2020 10:23:54    2285937

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Replying To oneoff:  "Replying To KingdomBoy1: "100% Htaem, we have to look at the championship in football like the FA Cup in English soccer as its all in, how often does 1 of the non traditional English soccer teams win the FA cup? Not very often.



Exactly, that's what I love about cup football, it affords teams an opportunity to play against the big boys, that league football (while excellent for different reasons) just doesn't.

You're agreeing here with someone who's using the FA CUp as an example are you not?

You keep saying you're ''not not opposed to making changes to the structure of the championship'' yet say nothing as to what these chamges would be.

You also keep going on about the league. That's a totally different competition with nothing to do with the championship at the moment. Why are you and others so obsessed with this idea of teams ''having a right'' to play in the senior championship?"
I agree generally with Kingdomboy, I make no apology for that, but I'm not comparing the championship to the FA cup myself. Anyway, I don't want to get bogged down on this point, it's not overly important.

My point is I'm against a 2 tiered championship for the reasons stated.

As an alternative, I wouldn't be against a world cup style championship, ie 8 groups of 4, 3 games each, top 2 through to the last 16.

What is your view on things?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 10:37:54    2285938

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Replying To oneoff:  "Again the teams who will be playing in it aren't getting coverage the way things are at the moment? So again do they want move coverage or what is it they actually want? Only recently we've seen players from ''weaker counties'' come out and say they don't actually deserve coverage with the way things are."
They're gettimg more than they would get. Something is better than nothing.

How woulf you fix the coverage issue?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 10:42:23    2285939

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Replying To oneoff:  "You're just changing the subject of your posts now. You clearly said that Meath in 2013 would have played in the second tier had there been one. When you're shown it actually wouldn't have been any different you bring up something else."
The splitting of the championship in 2 has been suggested in the past and is my long term concern, that's why I mention it.

Do you not think this is a possibility in future?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 10:45:02    2285940

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Replying To oneoff:  "Replying To KingdomBoy1: "100% Htaem, we have to look at the championship in football like the FA Cup in English soccer as its all in, how often does 1 of the non traditional English soccer teams win the FA cup? Not very often.



Exactly, that's what I love about cup football, it affords teams an opportunity to play against the big boys, that league football (while excellent for different reasons) just doesn't.

You're agreeing here with someone who's using the FA CUp as an example are you not?

You keep saying you're ''not not opposed to making changes to the structure of the championship'' yet say nothing as to what these chamges would be.

You also keep going on about the league. That's a totally different competition with nothing to do with the championship at the moment. Why are you and others so obsessed with this idea of teams ''having a right'' to play in the senior championship?"
Because if you're worried about teams getting more games to progress themselves and to win meaningful silverware then the league is the ideal forum for that.

You move the league to the summer and maybe you solve a lot of the problems without having to remove weaker teams from the championship.

If the championship is a knockout competition I don't see why it's a big deal to just include everyone. It adds 1 round.

If you want to make lower level teams earn their right to play the top teams something simple can be done.

Run the league 4 divisions of 8.

When you enter the championship is determined by your league division.

The teams finishing the NFL in division 3 and 4 start in round 1.
Division 2 in round 2.
Division 1 in round 3 (last 16)

If Antrim for instance get a game against a top team they'll have earned their right to be there.

The above takes 13 game weeks to be run, it could be played off in 4 months from April to say August bank holiday weekend.

You're getting a better season. All teams have meaningful matches. Supporters have a better games to go to at a better time of year.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 31/07/2020 10:52:10    2285943

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Replying To Htaem:  "They're gettimg more than they would get. Something is better than nothing.

How woulf you fix the coverage issue?"
I think too much is made of the coverage issue. It probably does affect sponsorship revenues, that'd be the best reason not to remove the Provincial championships.

I don't think it's a big deal for players. The crowds they play to is probably felt more by them and they'll get more playing against the big teams than the teams at their level.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 31/07/2020 11:30:02    2285944

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think too much is made of the coverage issue. It probably does affect sponsorship revenues, that'd be the best reason not to remove the Provincial championships.

I don't think it's a big deal for players. The crowds they play to is probably felt more by them and they'll get more playing against the big teams than the teams at their level."
I don't know how much is made of it really, but being in an all inclusive championship increases exposure for div3 & 4 counties, if even only by a small margin and I think that's better for them than playing in a B competition that gets little or no coverage.

I like the idea of a compact intercounty football season played out over the summer though. The Gaa really should look into this, I think it could be good for the game at all levels.

League games for example are often well attended as it is but I think they would become even more popular if they were played in summer.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8426 - 31/07/2020 12:11:34    2285949

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Replying To Htaem:  "I don't know how much is made of it really, but being in an all inclusive championship increases exposure for div3 & 4 counties, if even only by a small margin and I think that's better for them than playing in a B competition that gets little or no coverage.

I like the idea of a compact intercounty football season played out over the summer though. The Gaa really should look into this, I think it could be good for the game at all levels.

League games for example are often well attended as it is but I think they would become even more popular if they were played in summer."
For me that answers a lot of questions.

If there needs to be a Provincial championship play league and provinces alongside from March to May. Finish with a knockout All Ireland. Club to start by August. Play Provincial club in November. All Ireland club in Feb.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 3015 - 31/07/2020 14:23:45    2285972

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