National Forum

Canavan Or Gooch?

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Cavanagh was best playing in a tough Ulster setting however, the best I've seen was Frank McGuigan and Matt O' Connor. Google Ulster final with McGuigan and see him score many points with guys dragging out of him-reminded of the try that Fitzgerald score for Ireland (the red guy) he was pushed over the line but when interviewed he said he was pulling them all along. I think that posters should not be naming players from their own county as self praise is no praise (Kerry poster take note). As an aside in Gooches first AI against Mayo his first goal was a very clear push in the back with Ref not up with the play. Great skill full player to watch but did not do well when man-marked (Ref Cooper and Tyrone). The present Kerry Captain is very difficult to man-mark and skill full.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2131 - 07/02/2020 17:26:56    2265994

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Replying To browncows:  "Cavanagh was best playing in a tough Ulster setting however, the best I've seen was Frank McGuigan and Matt O' Connor. Google Ulster final with McGuigan and see him score many points with guys dragging out of him-reminded of the try that Fitzgerald score for Ireland (the red guy) he was pushed over the line but when interviewed he said he was pulling them all along. I think that posters should not be naming players from their own county as self praise is no praise (Kerry poster take note). As an aside in Gooches first AI against Mayo his first goal was a very clear push in the back with Ref not up with the play. Great skill full player to watch but did not do well when man-marked (Ref Cooper and Tyrone). The present Kerry Captain is very difficult to man-mark and skill full."
Genuine question, what matches specifically did he not do well when man marked? That has been asked several times in the thread already but nobody has answered it. Even when doubled he always came away with scores as far as I remember. His scoring stats in finals was listed earlier and it is very impressive.

2015 is an obvious one but he was a shadow of his former self at that stage.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1793 - 07/02/2020 19:46:49    2266019

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Cooper all day long for me. Stephen McDonald, Stephen O'Neill or Mickey Linden ahead of Canavan for me in terms of Ulster players.

Cooper would be the star forward in Dublins current team if he was still at his peak and a Dub! Canavan wouldn't.

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 2842 - 07/02/2020 20:49:37    2266028

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Canavan in the mid 90s was almost unplayable. Incredible footballer. Not from Tyrone obviously but was happy to see him lift SAM in 03 after 95 as the guy almost singlehandedly won his county an all Ireland that year. V good pundit too always worth listening to.

seanie08 (Monaghan) - Posts: 1445 - 07/02/2020 21:05:41    2266029

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Genuine question, what matches specifically did he not do well when man marked? That has been asked several times in the thread already but nobody has answered it. Even when doubled he always came away with scores as far as I remember. His scoring stats in finals was listed earlier and it is very impressive.

2015 is an obvious one but he was a shadow of his former self at that stage."
Against Dublin he scored 1 point and his man marker (Philly) scored 1-1. Against Tyrone he did poorly in a semi, or final -not sure which when man -marked. A great and very skilful player no doubt and surprised that Crokes left him on the side line in 2008 for most of the match. In matches that I refer to he was not 'doubled'.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2131 - 07/02/2020 22:40:53    2266046

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Genuine question, what matches specifically did he not do well when man marked? That has been asked several times in the thread already but nobody has answered it. Even when doubled he always came away with scores as far as I remember. His scoring stats in finals was listed earlier and it is very impressive.

2015 is an obvious one but he was a shadow of his former self at that stage."
I can honestly say as a Kerry man the marker I thought gave Gooch the toughest job and was the best man marker vs Gooch in his prime was Anthony Lynch of Cork. Lynch started at number 7 for Cork but when Gooch reached his peak he was moved to 4 and in fairness he stuck to him like glue. Always gave Gooch massive headaches when we played Cork.

AnFear16 (Kerry) - Posts: 21 - 08/02/2020 02:47:51    2266055

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Replying To browncows:  "Against Dublin he scored 1 point and his man marker (Philly) scored 1-1. Against Tyrone he did poorly in a semi, or final -not sure which when man -marked. A great and very skilful player no doubt and surprised that Crokes left him on the side line in 2008 for most of the match. In matches that I refer to he was not 'doubled'."
What game did Philly score 1-01 off him? He scored 1-12 in three games againest Tyrone so what game are you refuring to? Actually don't even answer seeing as you don't even know what game you're talking about yourswlf

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 347 - 08/02/2020 09:49:49    2266061

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Replying To browncows:  "Against Dublin he scored 1 point and his man marker (Philly) scored 1-1. Against Tyrone he did poorly in a semi, or final -not sure which when man -marked. A great and very skilful player no doubt and surprised that Crokes left him on the side line in 2008 for most of the match. In matches that I refer to he was not 'doubled'."
Browncows at the risk of being pedantic you made a general statement that he could not deal with being marked. Like others who have said this, you have no specific example bar 2015 of a game where he didn't perform, which I already acknowledged. McMahon got a point that day btw, not 1-1.

Having played in so many big games over the years it would be almost statistically impossible to be the best player on the field in every one of them, but even in his quieter games he always chipped in with a couple of scores and tied up the opponents best marker.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1793 - 08/02/2020 10:32:32    2266066

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Replying To browncows:  "Against Dublin he scored 1 point and his man marker (Philly) scored 1-1. Against Tyrone he did poorly in a semi, or final -not sure which when man -marked. A great and very skilful player no doubt and surprised that Crokes left him on the side line in 2008 for most of the match. In matches that I refer to he was not 'doubled'."
Didn't you read the first page, Kerry and Cooper were never beaten by Dublin - you'd actually be embarrassed for some. ;D

Get with the North Keria. ;)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3324 - 08/02/2020 10:56:56    2266071

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Colm Cooper, far more skill than Canavan.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 988 - 08/02/2020 10:58:40    2266072

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Didn't you read the first page, Kerry and Cooper were never beaten by Dublin - you'd actually be embarrassed for some. ;D

Get with the North Keria. ;)"
But you're the one who's believing things that aren't true posted by others.

It's been asked already what games did Copper go missing in? What game did McMahon score 1-01 in while he was marking Copper?

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 347 - 08/02/2020 11:56:05    2266080

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Replying To oneoff:  "What game did Philly score 1-01 off him? He scored 1-12 in three games againest Tyrone so what game are you refuring to? Actually don't even answer seeing as you don't even know what game you're talking about yourswlf"
Gooch didn't score off McMahon in 2015 final.
McMahon scored a point that day.
I seem to remember a reference of some remark made by a certain player and I think it might have been that day.
Very low stuff if that's the case.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 1339 - 08/02/2020 11:56:46    2266081

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The trouble with these threads is that in trying to put forward an argument for one player, some people slip into the trap of running down the other.

Both players were immensely skilled, with technique, vision, deceptive strength and pace. Cooper. was taller and better in the air, whereas Canavan was quicker.

Colm Cooper was a fabulous footballer, and would have been a star in any era. But I'd take Canavan over him for one simple reason - Peter Canavan was a leader of men. In a Tyrone dressing room with huge leaders like Cavanagh, Gormley, Jordan, McMenamin, McAnallen, Dooher, O'Neill, McGuigan, Mulligan etc, Peter Canavan was the dominant personality. He elevated the level of every team he played with through his standards and ferocious will to win, and was always at his very best in the biggest moments.

Ask any Tyrone player of the last 30 years who was the best player they ever played with, and none of them will say Cavanagh or O'Neill or Dooher, incredible though they all were. They all say Canavan, which shows how far ahead of his peers he was.

Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1001 - 08/02/2020 12:18:04    2266083

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Replying To catch22:  "Gooch didn't score off McMahon in 2015 final.
McMahon scored a point that day.
I seem to remember a reference of some remark made by a certain player and I think it might have been that day.
Very low stuff if that's the case."
But he said McMahon socred 1-01 and others are agree with this even though it's not true

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 347 - 08/02/2020 12:33:03    2266087

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Its Canavan, and to be honest it wasn't even a debate for me. I was lucky enough to see both in their prime and while Cooper was good, Canavan is perhaps one of the greatest ever.

All I know is that if I was picking 15 players to win a match to save my life, Canavan would be on the field but Cooper would not.

Steve (Fermanagh) - Posts: 292 - 08/02/2020 12:52:58    2266091

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Replying To oneoff:  "But you're the one who's believing things that aren't true posted by others.

It's been asked already what games did Copper go missing in? What game did McMahon score 1-01 in while he was marking Copper?"
Sorry, as i have said to you in the past, your not someone i want to interact with, either in your main username or this one.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 3324 - 08/02/2020 13:18:37    2266092

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Didn't you read the first page, Kerry and Cooper were never beaten by Dublin - you'd actually be embarrassed for some. ;D

Get with the North Keria. ;)"
Strange I thought you always said you never bothered reading my posts?
How can you be so irked by them then????

To reiterate using your native parlance: scarlet for ya - never change lad :D

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 5481 - 08/02/2020 14:15:52    2266099

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Sorry, as i have said to you in the past, your not someone i want to interact with, either in your main username or this one."
But here you are. What exactly is it about the truth you don't like? Any one of your usernames can answer the question

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 347 - 08/02/2020 15:45:04    2266112

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Replying To TheHermit:  "Strange I thought you always said you never bothered reading my posts?
How can you be so irked by them then????

To reiterate using your native parlance: scarlet for ya - never change lad :D"
To be fair he doesn't actually say what one of his usernames doesn't read them

oneoff (UK) - Posts: 347 - 08/02/2020 15:46:21    2266113

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Gooch was excellent in every final and almost every big game I saw him play bar 2015 when he really shouldn't have been in the field.

He out scored Canavan in that 2005 final btw, and was the standout player before sustaining a nasty eye injury early in the game. He was also very good in the 2008 final and in 2011, and was a standout player in the 2013 semi in what was one of the best games I've ever attended. If that is little or no impact in your view then fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinions.

This Canavan v Gooch debate comes up fairly regularly and there seems to be a convenient revisionist agenda by some looking back at Goochs career, where they only want to discuss games Kerry lost, and give no credit whatsoever for the ones they won. Peter Canavan was involved in a lot of losses and disappointments during his career too, strangely nobody ever wants to pore over those.

FWIW I think they are both living legends of the game and two of the best talents we have ever seen. I'd struggle to say one was better than the other with any real conviction. That 95 performance by Canavan was unreal, possibly equalled two years later by Maurice Fitzgerald though. I think it's probably worth adding that both of those performances were in the days of 15 v 15 man v man football and before the days of crowded defences, double marking and sweepers. It was a lot easier to operate as a forward in those days. You rarely see a player at the very top level take control of a game like that now because they'd never get the space to do it."
Agree with this. Gooch's losses are more memorable because they were more high profile games.

Tyrone crashed out early a number of times at Canavan's peak. I'm sure he has plenty of off days that weren't seen.

Gooch for me but Canavan was incredible also.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2950 - 08/02/2020 16:19:36    2266116

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