National Forum

Whatsapp With The GAA?

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So now the GAA has instructed clubs to stop using WhatsApp for communications and to wait til their own incarnation is developed in the Summer and use it. Who has given them the authority to be the police on what means of communications clubs (or individual groups within a club) decide to use? No doubt another money making scheme in the pipeline. That or they want to have visibility and records of all communications GAA related - must have got a copy of 1984 for Christmas!!

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 29/01/2020 12:38:20    2263472

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I think this GDPR lark started off with good intentions but evolved into a monster. Don't see what's wrong with using it for club communications so long as everybody in the group consents to be in it. And it's easy to remove yourself if you don't consent.

On a side note...does a strict interpretation of GDPR mean that something like an old phone book is now illegal? It'd be packed from cover to cover with people's personal identifying details like name, address, and phone number, and compiled in the days before GDPR, so people couldn't have consented to publication for GDPR purposes....

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2245 - 29/01/2020 13:09:02    2263487

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I think this GDPR lark started off with good intentions but evolved into a monster. Don't see what's wrong with using it for club communications so long as everybody in the group consents to be in it. And it's easy to remove yourself if you don't consent.

On a side note...does a strict interpretation of GDPR mean that something like an old phone book is now illegal? It'd be packed from cover to cover with people's personal identifying details like name, address, and phone number, and compiled in the days before GDPR, so people couldn't have consented to publication for GDPR purposes...."
It tends to be a principle of law that you can't apply the legal code retroactively, so I don't think anyone could be prosecuted for compiling a phone book back in the 1990s or 2000s.

But the GAA can't really enforce a ban on WhatsApp, and if it tries it would be doomed to fail.

Gleebo (Mayo) - Posts: 2208 - 29/01/2020 14:15:43    2263509

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It is a preventitive measure to give administrators of a group to stop sensitive material getting on public forum prior to being published. A very good idea imo.

bugsie (Leitrim) - Posts: 199 - 29/01/2020 14:34:53    2263520

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Waste of money by the gaa

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1144 - 29/01/2020 14:41:21    2263522

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GAA correct to assert this again. It's a data protection nightmare the way in which it is used in some (not necessarily all) clubs. It should have been made clear at GDPR training sessions that were rolled out across voluntary organisations all over the country.

It's an EU-wide regulation, not a directive, and it was not as if the GAA had any say on how it would be enforced.

The idea of developing an app specifically for this purpose may not be the best solution but we shall see what they come up with.

SurelyToGod (Donegal) - Posts: 377 - 29/01/2020 15:21:54    2263531

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The lads with the Tin Foil hats are out today with their conspiracy theories everywhere.

My advise is that you have such a negative view of the GAA and why they do things don't be involved move on to another sport.

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 29/01/2020 15:43:27    2263536

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Promise you won't use it, but as a loophole download Viber Messenger

DuhallowRed (Cork) - Posts: 268 - 29/01/2020 16:24:33    2263545

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Replying To Pikeman96:  "I think this GDPR lark started off with good intentions but evolved into a monster. Don't see what's wrong with using it for club communications so long as everybody in the group consents to be in it. And it's easy to remove yourself if you don't consent.

On a side note...does a strict interpretation of GDPR mean that something like an old phone book is now illegal? It'd be packed from cover to cover with people's personal identifying details like name, address, and phone number, and compiled in the days before GDPR, so people couldn't have consented to publication for GDPR purposes...."
The Eir phone book is available online! I think you can even have the hard copy delivered if you order it.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 263 - 29/01/2020 17:50:49    2263565

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Replying To witnof:  "The lads with the Tin Foil hats are out today with their conspiracy theories everywhere.

My advise is that you have such a negative view of the GAA and why they do things don't be involved move on to another sport."
Ha good man. So no one should dare question the reason behind what seems Draconian measures. And if it is GDPR which is their concern then why only mention one specific provider. And then in the next sentence say they are developing their own. Whatever with tin foil hats, some need to take the paper bags off their heads!!!

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 30/01/2020 09:53:06    2263696

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My point on this topic is that there is already a great communication app out there which the world uses for both personal and other uses. Sporting organisations across the globe use it as their way of communication - professional and amateur alike. Whatsapp already has the settings available to allow controls over Groups such as one way communication. If those who made this decision have genuine concerns then they should be providing education on how clubs can use Whatsapp for those who may not be aware of the capabilities of it, not trying to push their own or re-invent the wheel. History has shown that the GAA doesn't have a great track record when it comes to their own technological advances. And then to hide behind the GDPR blanket - the purpose of which incidentally was to stop Organisations collecting and storing your personal data for their own use or benefit, not stopping people from communicating.

A bit of common sense goes a long way some times.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 30/01/2020 11:12:12    2263714

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "My point on this topic is that there is already a great communication app out there which the world uses for both personal and other uses. Sporting organisations across the globe use it as their way of communication - professional and amateur alike. Whatsapp already has the settings available to allow controls over Groups such as one way communication. If those who made this decision have genuine concerns then they should be providing education on how clubs can use Whatsapp for those who may not be aware of the capabilities of it, not trying to push their own or re-invent the wheel. History has shown that the GAA doesn't have a great track record when it comes to their own technological advances. And then to hide behind the GDPR blanket - the purpose of which incidentally was to stop Organisations collecting and storing your personal data for their own use or benefit, not stopping people from communicating.

A bit of common sense goes a long way some times."
A bit of common sense is fine but you see even on here in another thread someone suggesting that the first thing a club should do is get onto their solicitors and start legal proceedings because 2 minor teams were not allowed to amalgamate. For 99% of people there is no issues, but there is always someone out there with a grudge or who sees the chance to make a few quid who will be looking for an opportunity.
Croke Park have been advising clubs for the last 2 years on the potential problems with WhatsApp, all they can do is provide the guidance and knowledge to volunteers and it's up to the clubs then to decide what to do with that. When they tell clubs not to use something that most clubs rely on then I'd also expect them to have an alternative solution, and it seems they are developing something on that. There are lots of things to criticise Croke Park for, this isn't one of them.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 30/01/2020 11:51:13    2263728

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Well, I heard somebody from the Data Commissioner's office on radio yesterday, talking about the settings within WhatsApp like "Group Invitation" (which I admit I didn't know about). It means that if you use it a certain way, it's not in breach of GDPR at all, since everybody has opted in and is aware that certain info might be visible to others.

As somebody said above, I reckon Croke Park would be better occupied by giving training/direction on this sort of thing, instead of issuing a blanket "Don't use WhatsApp" order.

Pikeman96 (Wexford) - Posts: 2245 - 30/01/2020 12:17:23    2263737

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Replying To Soma:  "A bit of common sense is fine but you see even on here in another thread someone suggesting that the first thing a club should do is get onto their solicitors and start legal proceedings because 2 minor teams were not allowed to amalgamate. For 99% of people there is no issues, but there is always someone out there with a grudge or who sees the chance to make a few quid who will be looking for an opportunity.
Croke Park have been advising clubs for the last 2 years on the potential problems with WhatsApp, all they can do is provide the guidance and knowledge to volunteers and it's up to the clubs then to decide what to do with that. When they tell clubs not to use something that most clubs rely on then I'd also expect them to have an alternative solution, and it seems they are developing something on that. There are lots of things to criticise Croke Park for, this isn't one of them."
Of course you will always get people who abuse things - it happens in every walk of life. But in the situation you mention if it isn't Whatsapp people use to call people to arms then it will be Facebook, Twitter or some other form of Social Media platform. And if they're all done away with then they will revert back to jumping in the car and going door to door on their crusade. We can't just go banning things because of arses. As someone said elsewhere, people can offend people with their tongue in public, whether intentionally or not, but no one has ever asked for their tongue to be cut out. There are ways and means to deal with these situations without slapping a ban on probably the largest and best message service provider out there. If Whatsapp had such problems with GDPR compliance then it wouldn't have the users it has.

The other problem I haven't touched on yet is the cost. How much money is required for the development and maintenance of this app? If they are going to provide something which isn't that complex then you could still be talking 6 figures for development alone. If you go for something akin to Whatsapp or even a scaled down, medium complexity version then you are talking more again. And then there will be the maintenance/running cost. Would this money not be better being invested back in to the club rather than spending it on something which is already there, and probably a lighter version of it. Or do they intend for this App to be subscription based in which case do they think people are going to stop using a free service to subscribe to their version? It'll turn out like other directives such as no payments of managers and people will simply ignore.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 30/01/2020 13:01:13    2263748

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Replying To Soma:  "A bit of common sense is fine but you see even on here in another thread someone suggesting that the first thing a club should do is get onto their solicitors and start legal proceedings because 2 minor teams were not allowed to amalgamate. For 99% of people there is no issues, but there is always someone out there with a grudge or who sees the chance to make a few quid who will be looking for an opportunity.
Croke Park have been advising clubs for the last 2 years on the potential problems with WhatsApp, all they can do is provide the guidance and knowledge to volunteers and it's up to the clubs then to decide what to do with that. When they tell clubs not to use something that most clubs rely on then I'd also expect them to have an alternative solution, and it seems they are developing something on that. There are lots of things to criticise Croke Park for, this isn't one of them."
Back to your usual defence of the GAA hierarchy, I wonder why, close to the bone maybe. Anyways in relation to your statement re my suggestion about the club issuing a legal letter, well the common sense you seem so fond of would be applicable in allowing two clubs merge for the particular age group as neither can field a full team & particularly when there was already precedence in place, but common sense at County Board level & higher is not something members see often. A legal letter is the only way to get these inept officials to act.
Secondly your defence of the GAA re the whatsapp story is as usual laughable. You say the GAA have been warning clubs on the potential risks with whatsapp for 2 years, maybe you could put a link up to the warnings they issued two years ago & tell us why they haven't developed a sysytem to replace it in 2 years. Please tell us when the new system will be in place & whether it will be free to clubs. Let's hope it's regulation s better than the time in 2010 when the entire records of the 510,000 membership including children were leaked & nothing was encrypted. Maybe they could also tell us how many breaches of GDPR were reported to their own systems in the last two years & what action were taken, that would be really interesting, as when journalists starting looking for that info, there will be some shock.

moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 30/01/2020 13:11:36    2263752

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This is not only a GDPR issue and to pigeon-hole it as such is short-sighted, and likely missing the point.

There's also significant and very pertinent child protection issues here.

This year, my 15 year old moves up to U17/Minor. Training is ramping up, events are being organised and gym sessions programmed. As parents, we have had not one peep from the club about any of this. All the children are in a whatsapp group and management communicate that way.We don't even have any indication of who the team mentors are, or how to contact them.

i'm all for increasing personal responsibility as the kids grow older, but this is not the way.

This is wholly unsatisfactory. I know that the club is aware of child protection guidelines under which this approach is a major no no. If there's any chance that a new, dedicated, proprietary communications system provides wide-spectrum compliance out of the box for clubs, we should all be clambering all over it.

I had a short stint of involvement at committee level and the major eye-opener for me was the overwhelming level of compliance requirements that are club responsibilities. It's an impossible ask for volunteers to become experts in and have responsibility for all the legislation, requirements and guidelines around insurance, public safety, data processing, health & wellness, child protection and all the rest. When these tasks fall to a diminishing pool of active volunteers, the challenge is doubled.

The more that can be done centrally to lift these responsibilities, the better.

it's all very well scoffing at the grab all association's latest money-making scheme, but when a club finds themselves mired in a child protection debacle garnering national news coverage all because they chose to ignore best practice guidelines, it wont be so frivolous then.

There's a lot of things wrong in the GAA, this is not one of them.

TearsIn85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 193 - 30/01/2020 14:18:51    2263774

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Of course you will always get people who abuse things - it happens in every walk of life. But in the situation you mention if it isn't Whatsapp people use to call people to arms then it will be Facebook, Twitter or some other form of Social Media platform. And if they're all done away with then they will revert back to jumping in the car and going door to door on their crusade. We can't just go banning things because of arses. As someone said elsewhere, people can offend people with their tongue in public, whether intentionally or not, but no one has ever asked for their tongue to be cut out. There are ways and means to deal with these situations without slapping a ban on probably the largest and best message service provider out there. If Whatsapp had such problems with GDPR compliance then it wouldn't have the users it has.

The other problem I haven't touched on yet is the cost. How much money is required for the development and maintenance of this app? If they are going to provide something which isn't that complex then you could still be talking 6 figures for development alone. If you go for something akin to Whatsapp or even a scaled down, medium complexity version then you are talking more again. And then there will be the maintenance/running cost. Would this money not be better being invested back in to the club rather than spending it on something which is already there, and probably a lighter version of it. Or do they intend for this App to be subscription based in which case do they think people are going to stop using a free service to subscribe to their version? It'll turn out like other directives such as no payments of managers and people will simply ignore."
I agree with much of what you say but as someone who once held the job of secretary of a GAA Club I can tell you that it's the 1% of people who are arses that take up 90% of your time. The GAA haven't banned the use of WhatsApp, they have advised clubs not to use it and explained why. Club officers now know the risks, it's up to them what they do after that. They can use text messages again which don't have the same issues, they can stay using whatsapp, or they can use whatever it is the GAA create. I see in the papers that it is Tomas Meehan, Galway footballer and from the famous Caltra family, that oversees much of this for Croke Park. Good to see someone like that working there.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 30/01/2020 14:25:20    2263775

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Of course you will always get people who abuse things - it happens in every walk of life. But in the situation you mention if it isn't Whatsapp people use to call people to arms then it will be Facebook, Twitter or some other form of Social Media platform. And if they're all done away with then they will revert back to jumping in the car and going door to door on their crusade. We can't just go banning things because of arses. As someone said elsewhere, people can offend people with their tongue in public, whether intentionally or not, but no one has ever asked for their tongue to be cut out. There are ways and means to deal with these situations without slapping a ban on probably the largest and best message service provider out there. If Whatsapp had such problems with GDPR compliance then it wouldn't have the users it has.

The other problem I haven't touched on yet is the cost. How much money is required for the development and maintenance of this app? If they are going to provide something which isn't that complex then you could still be talking 6 figures for development alone. If you go for something akin to Whatsapp or even a scaled down, medium complexity version then you are talking more again. And then there will be the maintenance/running cost. Would this money not be better being invested back in to the club rather than spending it on something which is already there, and probably a lighter version of it. Or do they intend for this App to be subscription based in which case do they think people are going to stop using a free service to subscribe to their version? It'll turn out like other directives such as no payments of managers and people will simply ignore."
On the cost thing, the GAA app that is currently in use is free so I don't expect there to be a charge for whatever improved service they have. Yes it will cost alot of money to develop and roll-out, but if it just keeps 1 volunteer or club out of the courts then it will be money well spent. The GAA is run on volunteerism, but you can see even from posters on here why people would be thinking twice about opening themselves up to abuse and potential court proceedings by taking on a committee role at their club.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 30/01/2020 15:01:12    2263787

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WhatsApp already have a feature called the Broadcast list which gets around this GDPR issue. It allows the admin send messages to everyone and for the receiver to reply directly to the admin. I use it all the time and it works a treat. On one list I have 180+ people. Just click on the three verticle dots in the top right corner.

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 30/01/2020 17:44:48    2263831

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https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/sports-clubs-and-political-parties-advised-not-to-use-whatsapp-1.4155599

Well when experts on privacy are advising against using WhatsApp the warning should be heeded. The Tom Humphrey's case should serve as a cautionary tale. He was given the victim's phone number by a third party.

All it takes is for one person's personal details to be forwarded without their permission to somebody outside the group and at the very least, the club or organization will be exposing itself to legal action. And personally I wouldnt have any sympathy for any club which found itself in these circumstances facing a hefty legal bill.

The GAA are on the right side on this issue.

PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1903 - 30/01/2020 21:37:31    2263886

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