National Forum

NFL Division 1

(Oldest Posts First) - Go To The Latest Post


Replying To MayoDan:  "The thing is that Spillane was actually in Navan watching the game. Knowing Spillane, he probably had his mayo analysis prepared before arriving at the ground!

Mayo forwards haven't been good enough to win an All Ireland but neither have Kerry, Galway or Donegal the last 5 years."
This contradicts my previous comment.... but spillane does seem to have his notes ready before a game anyways. Mayo forwards have had a patchy history but there is no need to slate them for every match as they're have been some very good performances over the years too. And had they one as much as one of those all irelands their ability and mental capacity would never be questioned.

Lasvegas (Galway) - Posts: 23 - 13/02/2020 16:54:51    2267546

Link

did ye not see the program on the sunday game 40years. of course its scripted thats why brolly is no more

lilypad (Kildare) - Posts: 1060 - 13/02/2020 18:12:25    2267560

Link

Replying To TheBishop:  "Mayo are always going to concede a goal or even two because they've always played on the edge, they take more chances than all the other counties and their defenders don't have the cover that the likes of the other pretenders have.

Mayo have/had some really good forwards, Andy Moran turned himself into a wonderful corner forward and Cillian O'Connor looked like he was going to be one of the top 5 or 6 forwards in the country when he was 21 but he's gone backwards.

There's been several occasions in the 5 finals including replays when Mayo were well on top against Dublin but could never get the scores on the board to put proper daylight between the side.

I just think Mayo's truly great the players the last decade have been in the backs."
Cillian's been plagued by injury throughout his career (rehabbing from surgery again right now) yet he's still the all-time top scorer in the championship and is now just 27 going on 28. He has obviously scored a lot of points from placed balls but he has also scored 4 more goals (25) than Bernard Brogan (21) in less years (by 5) and in less games (by 4). What he hasn't managed to do is nail one or two vital ones in AI finals and in the context of losing these finals his overall ability and achievements are seen in a dimmer light. However if you compare him to Conor McManus, an acknowledged top class forward, but one who's never been subjected to the pressure and scrutiny of an AI final and so has delivered largely in provincial championship games, it really seems a bit harsh to suggest that Cillian has "gone backwards". You might say that about someone like James O'Donoghue, who was the best in the game in 2014, but has had the last 5+ years wrecked by injury so in my book that wouldn't be an accurate reflection of that man either.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2064 - 13/02/2020 18:32:03    2267564

Link

Replying To TheBishop:  "Mayo are always going to concede a goal or even two because they've always played on the edge, they take more chances than all the other counties and their defenders don't have the cover that the likes of the other pretenders have.

Mayo have/had some really good forwards, Andy Moran turned himself into a wonderful corner forward and Cillian O'Connor looked like he was going to be one of the top 5 or 6 forwards in the country when he was 21 but he's gone backwards.

There's been several occasions in the 5 finals including replays when Mayo were well on top against Dublin but could never get the scores on the board to put proper daylight between the side.

I just think Mayo's truly great the players the last decade have been in the backs."
If you're talking about Dublin then obviously we're not as good. Even though our forwards played really well in some of the games, Dublin's were better. That's the case with every team who Dublin played in the last 5 years.

I'm wondering why Mayo forwards keep getting the blame when we lose a game but Kerry and Galway, in particular, don't get this criticism. A good example is the Galway v Kerry game in Tralee a couple of weeks ago. Galway dominated the game but missed numerous chances and ended up losing. If that was Mayo we'd be lynched but it was all positivity around the Galway performance and how attack minded they were.

Compared to us winning at the weekend and having Spillane call out James Carr and 20 year-old Tommy Conroy as not being good enough.

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 13/02/2020 19:35:25    2267568

Link

Replying To Pericles:  "Cillian's been plagued by injury throughout his career (rehabbing from surgery again right now) yet he's still the all-time top scorer in the championship and is now just 27 going on 28. He has obviously scored a lot of points from placed balls but he has also scored 4 more goals (25) than Bernard Brogan (21) in less years (by 5) and in less games (by 4). What he hasn't managed to do is nail one or two vital ones in AI finals and in the context of losing these finals his overall ability and achievements are seen in a dimmer light. However if you compare him to Conor McManus, an acknowledged top class forward, but one who's never been subjected to the pressure and scrutiny of an AI final and so has delivered largely in provincial championship games, it really seems a bit harsh to suggest that Cillian has "gone backwards". You might say that about someone like James O'Donoghue, who was the best in the game in 2014, but has had the last 5+ years wrecked by injury so in my book that wouldn't be an accurate reflection of that man either."
James O'Donoghue has gone backwards.

Are you suggesting Cillian O'Connor has been a better player than Bernard Brogan & Conor McManus? O'Connor must have played nearly 15 games between All Ireland semi finals and finals and even replays. I reckon in about half of those games he's not contributed a score from play.

O'Connor is a very good player but can think of 15-20 forwards off the top of my head that are better than him and I'd rather have in my team.

TheBishop (Galway) - Posts: 23 - 14/02/2020 11:03:17    2267633

Link

Replying To MayoDan:  "If you're talking about Dublin then obviously we're not as good. Even though our forwards played really well in some of the games, Dublin's were better. That's the case with every team who Dublin played in the last 5 years.

I'm wondering why Mayo forwards keep getting the blame when we lose a game but Kerry and Galway, in particular, don't get this criticism. A good example is the Galway v Kerry game in Tralee a couple of weeks ago. Galway dominated the game but missed numerous chances and ended up losing. If that was Mayo we'd be lynched but it was all positivity around the Galway performance and how attack minded they were.

Compared to us winning at the weekend and having Spillane call out James Carr and 20 year-old Tommy Conroy as not being good enough."
Galway played Kerry in a league game in the first week of February, its not exactly a fair comparison.

Mayo have played in All Ireland finals in 2012, 2013, 2016 & 2017. There was 5 games including the 2016 replay in those 5 games they scored 3 goals of which 2 were scored by Lee Keegan. 1 goal by a forward in 5 All Ireland finals is a very poor return. There were times in those games namely 13, 16 and 17 where Mayo were well on top but could never put real distance between themselves and the Dubs on the scoreboard. That is why Mayo forwards get criticised.

TheBishop (Galway) - Posts: 23 - 14/02/2020 11:37:44    2267637

Link

Replying To TheBishop:  "James O'Donoghue has gone backwards.

Are you suggesting Cillian O'Connor has been a better player than Bernard Brogan & Conor McManus? O'Connor must have played nearly 15 games between All Ireland semi finals and finals and even replays. I reckon in about half of those games he's not contributed a score from play.

O'Connor is a very good player but can think of 15-20 forwards off the top of my head that are better than him and I'd rather have in my team."
Cillian was only 19 or 20 years old in some of those semi-finals and finals. Brogan and McManus weren't shooting the lights out in big games at that age either. I'm not comparing players but every top forward gets held scoreless in some games, be that Brogan, McManus, Geaney, O'Donoghue, Mannion, Murphy, Shane Walsh etc.

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 14/02/2020 12:02:23    2267645

Link

Replying To TheBishop:  "Galway played Kerry in a league game in the first week of February, its not exactly a fair comparison.

Mayo have played in All Ireland finals in 2012, 2013, 2016 & 2017. There was 5 games including the 2016 replay in those 5 games they scored 3 goals of which 2 were scored by Lee Keegan. 1 goal by a forward in 5 All Ireland finals is a very poor return. There were times in those games namely 13, 16 and 17 where Mayo were well on top but could never put real distance between themselves and the Dubs on the scoreboard. That is why Mayo forwards get criticised."
It's a very fair comparison when you see what Spillane said about Mayo forwards (some of whom have yet to play championship) on the 2nd week in February!

I've already said our forwards aren't as good as Dublin. Kerry only scored 15 points in the replay last year and a paltry 9 points in the 2015 final. Just wondering why their forwards aren't criticised in the same way?

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 14/02/2020 13:08:21    2267663

Link

Replying To MayoDan:  "It's a very fair comparison when you see what Spillane said about Mayo forwards (some of whom have yet to play championship) on the 2nd week in February!

I've already said our forwards aren't as good as Dublin. Kerry only scored 15 points in the replay last year and a paltry 9 points in the 2015 final. Just wondering why their forwards aren't criticised in the same way?"
Unfortunately Kerry have what 34 All Ireland's? They will always get a free pass. We have 3 senior titles and have lost 9 finals since 1989....until we win an all Ireland we will be criticized and mocked...I wouldn't worry too much about it all we can do is keep at it which in fairness is what Mayo teams have always done.

Someday....and boy it will be sweet when it happens

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10027 - 14/02/2020 14:05:13    2267672

Link

Replying To TheBishop:  "James O'Donoghue has gone backwards.

Are you suggesting Cillian O'Connor has been a better player than Bernard Brogan & Conor McManus? O'Connor must have played nearly 15 games between All Ireland semi finals and finals and even replays. I reckon in about half of those games he's not contributed a score from play.

O'Connor is a very good player but can think of 15-20 forwards off the top of my head that are better than him and I'd rather have in my team."
I'm not suggesting anything Bishop. Conor McManus has played in zero AI finals, semi-finals and replays and so has built up all of his scoring achievements at a level where Cillian has also scored freely. I don't know the stats for Cillian's contributions from play in all of those pressure games, but the fact that you cite them as the benchmark means you can't compare Cillian with Conor at all - we don't know if McManus would be the same player in a final given the occasion, pressure, responsibility etc. Brogan is different as, even though the Dubs were waltzing through Leinster and blitzing all around them he didn't always fill his boots, but on the other hand he delivered big time in finals so imo is ahead of Cillian on that score, no debate. James O'Donoghue was just unfortunate over the years, his regression wasn't down to any loss of form, which is what most people would interpret as going backwards. He may bounce back this year... Andy Moran had 3 years blighted by serious injuries (cruciate, leg break) and a couple more trying to get back to the level, followed by his best years in his 30s.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2064 - 14/02/2020 14:14:17    2267675

Link

Replying To Pericles:  "I'm not suggesting anything Bishop. Conor McManus has played in zero AI finals, semi-finals and replays and so has built up all of his scoring achievements at a level where Cillian has also scored freely. I don't know the stats for Cillian's contributions from play in all of those pressure games, but the fact that you cite them as the benchmark means you can't compare Cillian with Conor at all - we don't know if McManus would be the same player in a final given the occasion, pressure, responsibility etc. Brogan is different as, even though the Dubs were waltzing through Leinster and blitzing all around them he didn't always fill his boots, but on the other hand he delivered big time in finals so imo is ahead of Cillian on that score, no debate. James O'Donoghue was just unfortunate over the years, his regression wasn't down to any loss of form, which is what most people would interpret as going backwards. He may bounce back this year... Andy Moran had 3 years blighted by serious injuries (cruciate, leg break) and a couple more trying to get back to the level, followed by his best years in his 30s."
Conor Mc Manus kicked 7 points in the All Ireland semi final two years ago....

Galwaymaster9 (Galway) - Posts: 151 - 14/02/2020 14:53:12    2267688

Link

Replying To Pericles:  "I'm not suggesting anything Bishop. Conor McManus has played in zero AI finals, semi-finals and replays and so has built up all of his scoring achievements at a level where Cillian has also scored freely. I don't know the stats for Cillian's contributions from play in all of those pressure games, but the fact that you cite them as the benchmark means you can't compare Cillian with Conor at all - we don't know if McManus would be the same player in a final given the occasion, pressure, responsibility etc. Brogan is different as, even though the Dubs were waltzing through Leinster and blitzing all around them he didn't always fill his boots, but on the other hand he delivered big time in finals so imo is ahead of Cillian on that score, no debate. James O'Donoghue was just unfortunate over the years, his regression wasn't down to any loss of form, which is what most people would interpret as going backwards. He may bounce back this year... Andy Moran had 3 years blighted by serious injuries (cruciate, leg break) and a couple more trying to get back to the level, followed by his best years in his 30s."
Conor McManus played in the All Ireland semi-final 2018 against Tyrone. Scored 7 points, 6 from frees.

OGarmaile (Tyrone) - Posts: 210 - 14/02/2020 14:57:22    2267689

Link

Replying To Pericles:  "I'm not suggesting anything Bishop. Conor McManus has played in zero AI finals, semi-finals and replays and so has built up all of his scoring achievements at a level where Cillian has also scored freely. I don't know the stats for Cillian's contributions from play in all of those pressure games, but the fact that you cite them as the benchmark means you can't compare Cillian with Conor at all - we don't know if McManus would be the same player in a final given the occasion, pressure, responsibility etc. Brogan is different as, even though the Dubs were waltzing through Leinster and blitzing all around them he didn't always fill his boots, but on the other hand he delivered big time in finals so imo is ahead of Cillian on that score, no debate. James O'Donoghue was just unfortunate over the years, his regression wasn't down to any loss of form, which is what most people would interpret as going backwards. He may bounce back this year... Andy Moran had 3 years blighted by serious injuries (cruciate, leg break) and a couple more trying to get back to the level, followed by his best years in his 30s."
Monaghan have played in as many semi-finals as Mayo over the last couple of seasons.

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 276 - 14/02/2020 14:57:51    2267690

Link

Replying To OGarmaile:  "Conor McManus played in the All Ireland semi-final 2018 against Tyrone. Scored 7 points, 6 from frees."
So McManus got the same amount from play as Cillian did vs Dublin last year. Was McManus criticised for such a poor showing from play? Actually I think he got an all star that year.

The last time we played Tyrone in championship Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play in a low scoring win for us.

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 14/02/2020 15:33:19    2267698

Link

Replying To MayoDan:  "It's a very fair comparison when you see what Spillane said about Mayo forwards (some of whom have yet to play championship) on the 2nd week in February!

I've already said our forwards aren't as good as Dublin. Kerry only scored 15 points in the replay last year and a paltry 9 points in the 2015 final. Just wondering why their forwards aren't criticised in the same way?"
I agree Dan, that the Dubs now have a great set of forwards and backups on the bench, but the main thing that they do is work very hard to create pop over chances inside 30m, plus they're confident and coached enough to execute those shots with their eyes closed. They have guys like Con O'Callaghan who don't look like they'll ever be prolific scorers but who'll land a killer blow in a pressure game given any sniff of a chance... again it's the confidence to go for it that marks him out.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2064 - 14/02/2020 15:36:58    2267700

Link

Replying To MayoDan:  "So McManus got the same amount from play as Cillian did vs Dublin last year. Was McManus criticised for such a poor showing from play? Actually I think he got an all star that year.

The last time we played Tyrone in championship Cillian scored 7 points, 3 from play in a low scoring win for us."
Can you not acknowledge that you were incorrect when you said Conor McManus played in zero semi-finals? Did you just make that up?

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 276 - 14/02/2020 15:43:51    2267702

Link

Apologies to all (and particularly Conor McManus) for my over-generalisation. I mentioned semi-finals, but I was really thinking more about finals and the pressure of delivering on the biggest day, which hasn't happened yet for Conor but might still. The fact that Tyrone restricted him to a single point from play is noteworthy, but I don't disagree with Bishop regarding Conor's undoubted talent as exhibited in other games. If he ever fancies a move West I'm sure we'd give him a welcome!

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2064 - 14/02/2020 15:49:48    2267703

Link

Replying To greatpoint:  "Can you not acknowledge that you were incorrect when you said Conor McManus played in zero semi-finals? Did you just make that up?"
I'd have Mc Manus over O Connor any and every day of the week..

Galwaymaster9 (Galway) - Posts: 151 - 14/02/2020 15:50:56    2267704

Link

Replying To greatpoint:  "Can you not acknowledge that you were incorrect when you said Conor McManus played in zero semi-finals? Did you just make that up?"
I never said that?

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 14/02/2020 15:53:48    2267706

Link

Replying To greatpoint:  "Can you not acknowledge that you were incorrect when you said Conor McManus played in zero semi-finals? Did you just make that up?"
My mistake, I did greatpoint... Dan is innocent!

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2064 - 14/02/2020 16:03:05    2267707

Link