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NFL Division 1

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Replying To Aibrean:  "
Replying To Soma:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "[quote=Soma:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "I think the second one is a goal.

The question depends on when exactly does a player gain or lose possession. Consider the two cases:

(a) The player hops the ball and does not catch it (or play it) again.
(b) The player hops the ball and catches it again.

In (a) clearly the player loses possession at the moment the ball leaves his hands.
In (b) the player loses possession the moment the ball left his hands and regains possession when he catches it again.

You hardly say that in (b) he had possession all the time just because he caught it again. You can't say 'if he doesn't catch it again he lost possession but if he catches it again he never lost possession'. You can't have it both ways.

So, I think if you hop the ball and do not catch it again you have lost possession and may play the ball with the hand into the net."
No if you are hopping the ball you continue to be in possession of it. Otherwise every time you try to bounce the ball it should be a free against you as it would be a throw (ball held in the hands played away without a definite striking action)"
Simple question. If you hop the ball and it bounces awkwardly and you can't catch it (or someone else catches it) at what point exactly do you lose possession?"]When someone else plays it. You are confusing holding the ball and being in possession of the ball. If you are holding the ball you are always in possession of it, but you can be in possession of the ball and not always holding it."]When someone else plays it??
So, a player could still be in possession of the ball even though it's 2 or 3 metres away ? That makes no sense. And you could shoulder such a player even though the ball is 2 or 3 metres away?

Also, I'm certain of this. If a player hops the ball once, catches it, hops it again but does not catch it again, he does NOT commit a foul. The explanation is that he did not complete two bounces as a bounce is only completed when the player catches the ball. This is in accordance with the definition of a hop/bounce:
For a player who has caught the ball to play the ball against the ground with his hand(s) and to catch it on return to his hand(s) again.
It's clear in this case that the player loses possession the moment the ball leaves the player's hands.
Accordingly, the player is NOT 'deemed to be in possession of the ball' unless he catches it again and is free to punch or kick it away - even into the net.

And, consider this. When the ball has not been caught, it may be bounced more than once in succession.
Can this ball be punched into the net? Of, course it can."]You have got yourself all confused. If a player loses possession of the ball every time he goes to bounce it how could he ever be penalised for doing 2 consecutive bounces? By your argument every time he bounces the ball he has lost possession so its impossible to be penalised for 2 bounces. Your argument on this makes no sense but you have yourself convinced so carry on. And you can shoulder an opponent fairly even when you are 10 metres from the ball, never mind 2 or 3.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2348 - 12/02/2020 12:54:45    2267279

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Replying To Aibrean:  "I would say it was unlikely that Murphy was in the square when the ball was being kicked. What advantage would it be to him? Much more likely that the umpires - and even the ref - do not know the relevant rule. Ignorance of the rules is widespread.

For example, the ref in Kerry/Tyrone seemed to give Clifford a yellow for 'remonstrating with an official'. It should have been a black.

And Tomás O Sé, assistant commentator in the Dublin/Monaghan, showed he was not familiar with the cynical behaviour rules."
I was right behind the goal. Murphy was standing there i.e. wasn't running in. He was in the square when he hit the ball so my assumption is he was in there when the ball was kicked because it was a standing jump. Can't be 100% but in this instance would think the umpire was correct.

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1123 - 12/02/2020 15:34:12    2267339

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Replying To yew_tree:  "I wouldn't be overly critical and judge a team in February....let alone in a gale."
Would agree with you on that, but at the same time you'd like to be able to see some development of the squad and a series of decent performances. The shennanigans with our goalkeepers is beyond belief at this stage and it's pretty clear that unless we get our injured forwards back, it'll be a very short summer. It's hard to have to say it, but some of the lads are just not up to it at the moment. Hopefully they'll come on but that's far from guaranteed and losing can become a very bad habit with difficulty to break.

moylagh (Meath) - Posts: 455 - 12/02/2020 16:32:55    2267355

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Replying To moylagh:  "Would agree with you on that, but at the same time you'd like to be able to see some development of the squad and a series of decent performances. The shennanigans with our goalkeepers is beyond belief at this stage and it's pretty clear that unless we get our injured forwards back, it'll be a very short summer. It's hard to have to say it, but some of the lads are just not up to it at the moment. Hopefully they'll come on but that's far from guaranteed and losing can become a very bad habit with difficulty to break."
I think both teams are in the same position moylagh, with regulars to come back, but with a need to get something out of the players being given their chance in the interest of future development (and in the case of Mayo, to bring the age/mileage profile in). Our best showings so far from the newcomers have been in defence, but a number of the forwards tried have shown signs of promise. They just need to click better as a collective and they'll be given every chance to do this against Monaghan - very few find their feet at county level in their first outing, unless the team is overflowing with confidence (like the Dubs are). Young O'Reilly looks like a good young player for yourselves and a decent performance/result the next day out could turn momentum on its head. As a supporter you survive on hope.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2065 - 12/02/2020 18:41:24    2267375

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Every one complaining especially Spillane about Mayo forwards not able to score from play, well just look up the stats for last weekend league games ,and you will see that Mayo scored 1- 5 from play the second highest of the weekend in Div 1 , more than Kerry with all their Marquee Forwards.

culmore (None) - Posts: 1391 - 12/02/2020 21:55:22    2267419

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Replying To Mayonman:  "I was right behind the goal. Murphy was standing there i.e. wasn't running in. He was in the square when he hit the ball so my assumption is he was in there when the ball was kicked because it was a standing jump. Can't be 100% but in this instance would think the umpire was correct."
U just so happened to be one of the 4 people standing there ???

eunans4ever (Donegal) - Posts: 1154 - 12/02/2020 23:08:39    2267436

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Replying To culmore:  "Every one complaining especially Spillane about Mayo forwards not able to score from play, well just look up the stats for last weekend league games ,and you will see that Mayo scored 1- 5 from play the second highest of the weekend in Div 1 , more than Kerry with all their Marquee Forwards."
I think their record in the Championship over the last 10 years is probably of more relevance than a weekend of league matches in February.

greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 276 - 13/02/2020 10:28:54    2267464

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Replying To eunans4ever:  "U just so happened to be one of the 4 people standing there ???"
about 8 actually of us taking shelter beside the white van!

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1123 - 13/02/2020 10:34:02    2267466

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Replying To culmore:  "Every one complaining especially Spillane about Mayo forwards not able to score from play, well just look up the stats for last weekend league games ,and you will see that Mayo scored 1- 5 from play the second highest of the weekend in Div 1 , more than Kerry with all their Marquee Forwards."
While i agree with Spillane about Mayo forwards not being good enough you are 100% right in what you say. I would bet that Spillane and co didn't watch the games other than the live broadcasts and were making comments based on the general narrative rather than anything specific they saw this weekend. He just happened to pick a weekend that a few Mayo forwards scored!

Standard of punditry leaves a lot to be desired..........(don't mention Brolly.......he is worse).

How much prep work do these analysts do for League Sunday!! Handy number if u can get it:-)

Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1123 - 13/02/2020 10:38:46    2267470

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Replying To greatpoint:  "I think their record in the Championship over the last 10 years is probably of more relevance than a weekend of league matches in February."
Mayo were playing against one of the weakest sides in D1 in years(Not helped with injuries) so you cant compair. If Mayo had better forwards than they had last few years they would have won at least one Sam. They are over reliant on runners from deep and winning frees for COC in the past. Moran a massive loss as COC is average from play and he is their best forward. Fair play to Horan though he is giving youth a chance so far in the league as he has recognised they need more fire power up top to challenge and needs to find something. Carr looks promising.

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 326 - 13/02/2020 10:39:11    2267471

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Replying To Mayonman:  "While i agree with Spillane about Mayo forwards not being good enough you are 100% right in what you say. I would bet that Spillane and co didn't watch the games other than the live broadcasts and were making comments based on the general narrative rather than anything specific they saw this weekend. He just happened to pick a weekend that a few Mayo forwards scored!

Standard of punditry leaves a lot to be desired..........(don't mention Brolly.......he is worse).

How much prep work do these analysts do for League Sunday!! Handy number if u can get it:-)"
The thing is that Spillane was actually in Navan watching the game. Knowing Spillane, he probably had his mayo analysis prepared before arriving at the ground!

Mayo forwards haven't been good enough to win an All Ireland but neither have Kerry, Galway or Donegal the last 5 years.

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 13/02/2020 11:37:38    2267484

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Mayo were playing against one of the weakest sides in D1 in years(Not helped with injuries) so you cant compair. If Mayo had better forwards than they had last few years they would have won at least one Sam. They are over reliant on runners from deep and winning frees for COC in the past. Moran a massive loss as COC is average from play and he is their best forward. Fair play to Horan though he is giving youth a chance so far in the league as he has recognised they need more fire power up top to challenge and needs to find something. Carr looks promising."
Meath are weak going forward but are pretty solid defensively. Donegal forwards only got 3 points from play against them and Michael Murphy was held scoreless outside of placed balls.

In Horan's 1st term we were probably over reliant on running from the half back line but since then we kicked the ball a lot more into the full forward line. If CO'C is average from play then there are a huge amount of below average forwards in division 1.

I just don't understand why Mayo's problems are always put down to the forwards when we regularly ship 2 or 3 goals in games.

MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 181 - 13/02/2020 11:43:44    2267486

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Replying To sourmilk93:  "Mayo were playing against one of the weakest sides in D1 in years(Not helped with injuries) so you cant compair. If Mayo had better forwards than they had last few years they would have won at least one Sam. They are over reliant on runners from deep and winning frees for COC in the past. Moran a massive loss as COC is average from play and he is their best forward. Fair play to Horan though he is giving youth a chance so far in the league as he has recognised they need more fire power up top to challenge and needs to find something. Carr looks promising."
You mention Meath injury's but ignore the players mayo had out injured....look at all the newcomers Horan is giving game time too...indeed looking at your own forum the no1 topic of complaint from Roscommon fans is injuries.

For us it's about survival in division 1 and hopefully make it a 24th continuous year in the top division.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 10027 - 13/02/2020 12:20:37    2267497

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I just don't understand why Mayo's problems are always put down to the forwards when we regularly ship 2 or 3 goals in games.
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 171 - 13/02/2020 11:43:44


I'd agree with that. I think Mayo's forwards have been underrated over the past decade.

Conversely I think their defence has been slightly overrated during the same period of time.

MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 12867 - 13/02/2020 12:50:32    2267501

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Leagues is precarious. I think everyone concedes that Meath will go down. Still not even a clue who will join them. Tyrone were terrible against Monaghan and I was thinking we were sure to go down but make no mistake, they really turned it on second half against Kerry. The media hyperbole over Clifford's sending off will suit us.

OGarmaile (Tyrone) - Posts: 210 - 13/02/2020 13:23:29    2267510

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I just don't understand why Mayo's problems are always put down to the forwards when we regularly ship 2 or 3 goals in games.
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 171 - 13/02/2020 11:43:44


I'd agree with that. I think Mayo's forwards have been underrated over the past decade.

Conversely I think their defence has been slightly overrated during the same period of time."
We had one AI won except for the 2 own goals, whether you can blame that on the defenders is probably debateable... put into the same situation again they'd reflexively try to block/deflect the shots. The following year the team (including the forwards) managed one of the highest score conversion rates ever achieved in an AI final, but the Dubs managed a few percent (and one point) more. So there are a lot of facts to counter some of the BS if people take the time to look/think for themselves instead of digesting the canned narrative served up by so-called pundits. And anyone who tells you that the Dubs would have done 5 in a row without the exemplary free taking of Dean Rock belongs in outer space... his contribution over another good freetaker is probably +2 points a game. Take that off each final game the Dubs contested and you might find that the 5 wins would drop to a 2 and probably not consecutive titles at that. Cillian O'Connor has scored more goals than Bernard Brogan, a real marquee forward, and in less games... that's a fact which anyone can check, but it isn't something a lot of people would assume given the bashing he gets from so many quarters.

The truth is more complex than the sound bites.

Pericles (Mayo) - Posts: 2065 - 13/02/2020 13:32:46    2267512

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Replying To MayoDan:  "Meath are weak going forward but are pretty solid defensively. Donegal forwards only got 3 points from play against them and Michael Murphy was held scoreless outside of placed balls.

In Horan's 1st term we were probably over reliant on running from the half back line but since then we kicked the ball a lot more into the full forward line. If CO'C is average from play then there are a huge amount of below average forwards in division 1.

I just don't understand why Mayo's problems are always put down to the forwards when we regularly ship 2 or 3 goals in games."
Mayo are always going to concede a goal or even two because they've always played on the edge, they take more chances than all the other counties and their defenders don't have the cover that the likes of the other pretenders have.

Mayo have/had some really good forwards, Andy Moran turned himself into a wonderful corner forward and Cillian O'Connor looked like he was going to be one of the top 5 or 6 forwards in the country when he was 21 but he's gone backwards.

There's been several occasions in the 5 finals including replays when Mayo were well on top against Dublin but could never get the scores on the board to put proper daylight between the side.

I just think Mayo's truly great the players the last decade have been in the backs.

TheBishop (Galway) - Posts: 23 - 13/02/2020 14:09:00    2267518

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Replying To yew_tree:  "You mention Meath injury's but ignore the players mayo had out injured....look at all the newcomers Horan is giving game time too...indeed looking at your own forum the no1 topic of complaint from Roscommon fans is injuries.

For us it's about survival in division 1 and hopefully make it a 24th continuous year in the top division."
Sorry i didnt mean in terms of this current year. My comment was in relation to last couple of years. It was an excellent win for Mayo given the players you are missing and if you go a few pages back i did post Mayos basically B team bet Meath.

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 326 - 13/02/2020 14:33:05    2267523

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Replying To MesAmis:  "I just don't understand why Mayo's problems are always put down to the forwards when we regularly ship 2 or 3 goals in games.
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 171 - 13/02/2020 11:43:44


I'd agree with that. I think Mayo's forwards have been underrated over the past decade.

Conversely I think their defence has been slightly overrated during the same period of time."
Mayo's defense has probably been slightly overrated due to the scoring and running power they contributed to attack. Just an opinion

sourmilk93 (Roscommon) - Posts: 326 - 13/02/2020 15:03:55    2267529

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Replying To Mayonman:  "While i agree with Spillane about Mayo forwards not being good enough you are 100% right in what you say. I would bet that Spillane and co didn't watch the games other than the live broadcasts and were making comments based on the general narrative rather than anything specific they saw this weekend. He just happened to pick a weekend that a few Mayo forwards scored!

Standard of punditry leaves a lot to be desired..........(don't mention Brolly.......he is worse).

How much prep work do these analysts do for League Sunday!! Handy number if u can get it:-)"
Excellent point! The highlights of these league games are short and do not show a fair reflection on the games particularly regarding players that carry out the thankless jobs. There is no chance spillane and co. Have time to watch any of the games(bar the live ones) prior to their analysis and therefore spew up the same stuff every week without any consideration at al!!! I would advise the upset mayo man to take the comments with a pinch of salt!!!

Lasvegas (Galway) - Posts: 23 - 13/02/2020 16:45:48    2267544

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