National Forum

David Gough To Referee The Final

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Replying To ballydalane:  "Can someone tell me when or where did "neutral" evolve to mean neutral province? Did I miss something?

Most of the Carlow (and Wexford) people I know (including friends and relatives) fecking hate Kilkenny, and haven't been too shy in sewing yesterday's defeat into me either.

Like, would you consider a Mayo or Roscommon ref doing a Galway match as an inherent "advantage"? I doubt you would."
Would you be happy with a Carlow man living and working in Wexford reffing a championship game between Kilkenny and Wexford?

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 72 - 19/08/2019 13:43:43    2227491

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Replying To catch22:  "
Replying To Aibrean:  "[quote=catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!

I have just discovered the following post made by crystal-ball-owning Kerryman, Aibrean on 28th April 2019 under the topic 'Missing Referees'.

Yes, hopefully no Dublin based referees will be adjudicating on Dublin games in 2019.
Can you imagine the outcry if a Tralee based referee from Limerick was appointed to referee a Dublin/Kerry championship game.....


Note that the post makes no mention of Gough. This shows that Kerry concerns were a matter of principal and existed long before Gough was even being considered for the job. I rest my case."
ya , so what's your point then.
I'd imagine there's plenty of referees who have had reason to work or visit Dublin and who aren't biased.
Should they all be subjected to some sort of special scrutiny."
The fundamental point that justice must be seen to be done and that, as far as possible, referees must not only be neutral but be seen to be neutral seems to be beyond the grasp of many here.
You mention 'professional people who would come into contact with one another in day to day life but they go and do a professional job' Quite often 'professional people' - judges (another word for referee), for example, do withdraw fron cases where a PERCEIVED - key word here - conflict of interest may arise.
Why did Dublin have the Kerry referee removed? Because they PERCEIVED a possible conflict of interest.
Do you really think a Limerick referee living and working in Tralee would be acceptable to Dublin? Of course he would not and Dublin would be perfectly correct to have reservations about him.

It is not personal in Gough's case - as my April post shows. It is simple: no one embedded in Dublin should be reffing a Dublin game, just as no one embedded in Kerry should be reffing a Kerry game. If you can't grasp that I give up."]You mentioned judges withdrawing well solicitors and barristers are in the legal game and they don't have a problem contesting cases against colleges or associates in the same profession . Isn't this a prime example of the law presiding over justice seeing to be done. If they weren't neutral they couldn't properly represent their clients and might be accused of not putting forward a proper defense or prosecution case.
What's fundamentally important is that the best man for the job be appointed and Gough has proved that even if EF has his gripe."]So solicitors and barristers are neutral or are supposed to be neutral?
It's no wonder the issue is beyond you.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 72 - 19/08/2019 13:48:15    2227493

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Replying To Aibrean:  "
Replying To catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "[quote=catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!

I have just discovered the following post made by crystal-ball-owning Kerryman, Aibrean on 28th April 2019 under the topic 'Missing Referees'.

Yes, hopefully no Dublin based referees will be adjudicating on Dublin games in 2019.
Can you imagine the outcry if a Tralee based referee from Limerick was appointed to referee a Dublin/Kerry championship game.....


Note that the post makes no mention of Gough. This shows that Kerry concerns were a matter of principal and existed long before Gough was even being considered for the job. I rest my case."
ya , so what's your point then.
I'd imagine there's plenty of referees who have had reason to work or visit Dublin and who aren't biased.
Should they all be subjected to some sort of special scrutiny."
The fundamental point that justice must be seen to be done and that, as far as possible, referees must not only be neutral but be seen to be neutral seems to be beyond the grasp of many here.
You mention 'professional people who would come into contact with one another in day to day life but they go and do a professional job' Quite often 'professional people' - judges (another word for referee), for example, do withdraw fron cases where a PERCEIVED - key word here - conflict of interest may arise.
Why did Dublin have the Kerry referee removed? Because they PERCEIVED a possible conflict of interest.
Do you really think a Limerick referee living and working in Tralee would be acceptable to Dublin? Of course he would not and Dublin would be perfectly correct to have reservations about him.

It is not personal in Gough's case - as my April post shows. It is simple: no one embedded in Dublin should be reffing a Dublin game, just as no one embedded in Kerry should be reffing a Kerry game. If you can't grasp that I give up."]You mentioned judges withdrawing well solicitors and barristers are in the legal game and they don't have a problem contesting cases against colleges or associates in the same profession . Isn't this a prime example of the law presiding over justice seeing to be done. If they weren't neutral they couldn't properly represent their clients and might be accused of not putting forward a proper defense or prosecution case.
What's fundamentally important is that the best man for the job be appointed and Gough has proved that even if EF has his gripe."]So solicitors and barristers are neutral or are supposed to be neutral?
It's no wonder the issue is beyond you."]They are professional in that they carry out their duties to the best of their abilities regardless of the individual in the other corner who they may have some acquaintance with. That's the point. Try to keep up like a good boy.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 915 - 19/08/2019 15:01:30    2227529

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you made my point, I wouldn't want a Mayo or Ros ref for a big Galway game like a semi or a final, I would want a ref from another province. You said Carlow and Wex hate KK, why would you want a ref from there then?

suckvalleypaddy (Galway) - Posts: 1231 - 19/08/2019 15:31:22    2227542

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Replying To Aibrean:  "Would you be happy with a Carlow man living and working in Wexford reffing a championship game between Kilkenny and Wexford?"
I was responding to a Galway poster claiming that a Carlow ref was not "neutral" in the minor final between Kilkenny and Galway, and that the ref should be from a "neutral province". I was saying this neutral province malarkey is a new thing that must have come in.

I'm not getting into the David Gough clusterbomb, I'll let ye Kerry and Dublin lads fight it out.

ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1016 - 19/08/2019 15:46:13    2227556

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Replying To catch22:  "
Replying To Aibrean:  "[quote=catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "[quote=catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!

I have just discovered the following post made by crystal-ball-owning Kerryman, Aibrean on 28th April 2019 under the topic 'Missing Referees'.

Yes, hopefully no Dublin based referees will be adjudicating on Dublin games in 2019.
Can you imagine the outcry if a Tralee based referee from Limerick was appointed to referee a Dublin/Kerry championship game.....


Note that the post makes no mention of Gough. This shows that Kerry concerns were a matter of principal and existed long before Gough was even being considered for the job. I rest my case."
ya , so what's your point then.
I'd imagine there's plenty of referees who have had reason to work or visit Dublin and who aren't biased.
Should they all be subjected to some sort of special scrutiny."
The fundamental point that justice must be seen to be done and that, as far as possible, referees must not only be neutral but be seen to be neutral seems to be beyond the grasp of many here.
You mention 'professional people who would come into contact with one another in day to day life but they go and do a professional job' Quite often 'professional people' - judges (another word for referee), for example, do withdraw fron cases where a PERCEIVED - key word here - conflict of interest may arise.
Why did Dublin have the Kerry referee removed? Because they PERCEIVED a possible conflict of interest.
Do you really think a Limerick referee living and working in Tralee would be acceptable to Dublin? Of course he would not and Dublin would be perfectly correct to have reservations about him.

It is not personal in Gough's case - as my April post shows. It is simple: no one embedded in Dublin should be reffing a Dublin game, just as no one embedded in Kerry should be reffing a Kerry game. If you can't grasp that I give up."]You mentioned judges withdrawing well solicitors and barristers are in the legal game and they don't have a problem contesting cases against colleges or associates in the same profession . Isn't this a prime example of the law presiding over justice seeing to be done. If they weren't neutral they couldn't properly represent their clients and might be accused of not putting forward a proper defense or prosecution case.
What's fundamentally important is that the best man for the job be appointed and Gough has proved that even if EF has his gripe."]So solicitors and barristers are neutral or are supposed to be neutral?
It's no wonder the issue is beyond you."]They are professional in that they carry out their duties to the best of their abilities regardless of the individual in the other corner who they may have some acquaintance with. That's the point. Try to keep up like a good boy."]"If they weren't neutral....
said you. Of course, they are not neutral! They fight - as are they are expected to - tooth and nail for their client. There is no parallel whatsoever between a solicitor/barrister and a referee. The opposite is the case.

And, I'll try again - though this seems to be completely beyond you - a judge must be whiter than white and neutral to the nth degree to the extent that judges will often withdraw fron cases if there is the slightest possibility of a perception of possible bias.

This is my last post on this subject.

Aibrean (Kerry) - Posts: 72 - 19/08/2019 16:37:16    2227579

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Bottom line here is this wouldn't happen in any other sport as the optics of it are appalling regardless of how good a ref is or not.
Your wasting your breath debating with Dubs on here, Fairness isn't in the vocabulary given their stance on funding, Super 8 games, Croker etc, they hardly complain about a ref living, coaching, working in GAA in Dublin..
MOD should close this thread now as this should be about the game and not the ref.

westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1202 - 19/08/2019 17:05:15    2227589

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Replying To Aibrean:  "
Replying To catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "[quote=catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "[quote=catch22:  "[quote=Aibrean:  "HOLD THE FRONT PAGE!!!

I have just discovered the following post made by crystal-ball-owning Kerryman, Aibrean on 28th April 2019 under the topic 'Missing Referees'.

Yes, hopefully no Dublin based referees will be adjudicating on Dublin games in 2019.
Can you imagine the outcry if a Tralee based referee from Limerick was appointed to referee a Dublin/Kerry championship game.....


Note that the post makes no mention of Gough. This shows that Kerry concerns were a matter of principal and existed long before Gough was even being considered for the job. I rest my case."
ya , so what's your point then.
I'd imagine there's plenty of referees who have had reason to work or visit Dublin and who aren't biased.
Should they all be subjected to some sort of special scrutiny."
The fundamental point that justice must be seen to be done and that, as far as possible, referees must not only be neutral but be seen to be neutral seems to be beyond the grasp of many here.
You mention 'professional people who would come into contact with one another in day to day life but they go and do a professional job' Quite often 'professional people' - judges (another word for referee), for example, do withdraw fron cases where a PERCEIVED - key word here - conflict of interest may arise.
Why did Dublin have the Kerry referee removed? Because they PERCEIVED a possible conflict of interest.
Do you really think a Limerick referee living and working in Tralee would be acceptable to Dublin? Of course he would not and Dublin would be perfectly correct to have reservations about him.

It is not personal in Gough's case - as my April post shows. It is simple: no one embedded in Dublin should be reffing a Dublin game, just as no one embedded in Kerry should be reffing a Kerry game. If you can't grasp that I give up."]You mentioned judges withdrawing well solicitors and barristers are in the legal game and they don't have a problem contesting cases against colleges or associates in the same profession . Isn't this a prime example of the law presiding over justice seeing to be done. If they weren't neutral they couldn't properly represent their clients and might be accused of not putting forward a proper defense or prosecution case.
What's fundamentally important is that the best man for the job be appointed and Gough has proved that even if EF has his gripe."]So solicitors and barristers are neutral or are supposed to be neutral?
It's no wonder the issue is beyond you."]They are professional in that they carry out their duties to the best of their abilities regardless of the individual in the other corner who they may have some acquaintance with. That's the point. Try to keep up like a good boy."]"If they weren't neutral....
said you. Of course, they are not neutral! They fight - as are they are expected to - tooth and nail for their client. There is no parallel whatsoever between a solicitor/barrister and a referee. The opposite is the case.

And, I'll try again - though this seems to be completely beyond you - a judge must be whiter than white and neutral to the nth degree to the extent that judges will often withdraw fron cases if there is the slightest possibility of a perception of possible bias.

This is my last post on this subject."]Sorry now Bucko , you want to go on about a judge that's fine. The point I'm trying to get across to you is that the solicitor and barrister carry out their duties professionally while perhaps knowing one another outside the profession. God above , will you ever go for a walk or something. You had your country board then come out and say they hadn't a problem so you must be one of these crackpots that we're looking for a mass protest.
You look at all sports and are you really trying to suggest that no referees or umpires are living in cities involved in presiding over contests or games involving someone from a club or whatever that they may know outside the sport.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 915 - 19/08/2019 17:30:55    2227611

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Replying To westkerry:  "Bottom line here is this wouldn't happen in any other sport as the optics of it are appalling regardless of how good a ref is or not.
Your wasting your breath debating with Dubs on here, Fairness isn't in the vocabulary given their stance on funding, Super 8 games, Croker etc, they hardly complain about a ref living, coaching, working in GAA in Dublin..
MOD should close this thread now as this should be about the game and not the ref."
100% westkerry, you're flogging a dead horse with the dubs , they don't honestly think any of this is fair but they'll never say it, why would they rock the GAA gravy boat .

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 9341 - 19/08/2019 17:32:21    2227615

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Replying To suckvalleypaddy:  "you made my point, I wouldn't want a Mayo or Ros ref for a big Galway game like a semi or a final, I would want a ref from another province. You said Carlow and Wex hate KK, why would you want a ref from there then?"
Ah years ago a Mayo ref sent off two Kerry men and one Galway man in an All Ireland final. His name was Dr Michael Loftus and he went on to become President. By the way Galway won.

MillerX (Meath) - Posts: 574 - 19/08/2019 17:35:48    2227619

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Funny how these posters from Kerry don't seem to be accepting what their County board have come out and stated.
It's the same aul victims of injustice carry on as always. Get the excuses in early and if you lose then you can say I told you so. I hope the Dubs give them a trouncing though I'm not sure it'll work out that way.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 915 - 19/08/2019 17:42:58    2227623

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Replying To westkerry:  "Bottom line here is this wouldn't happen in any other sport as the optics of it are appalling regardless of how good a ref is or not.
Your wasting your breath debating with Dubs on here, Fairness isn't in the vocabulary given their stance on funding, Super 8 games, Croker etc, they hardly complain about a ref living, coaching, working in GAA in Dublin..
MOD should close this thread now as this should be about the game and not the ref."
Ah sure look, the build up is low key in the capital and there isn't a peep from the camp. Meanwhile down in Kerrygold land the Twitter machine is lit up with ex players and ex managers lambasting the appointment of Meath officials for a Dublin game, the Kerry Supporters Club are calling for protests and a demonstration at Fitzgerald Stadium. To top it all the Kerry County Board has had to make a statement re the appointment of the Meath officials swiftly followed by the Kerry manager. Meanwhile in the capital there is an eerie silence and you could hear a pin drop as Jim and his troops quietly go about their way preparing for the game. Kerry Cormac may still be up for the game if you wish to give him a shout.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 3822 - 19/08/2019 18:00:01    2227628

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Replying To catch22:  "Funny how these posters from Kerry don't seem to be accepting what their County board have come out and stated.
It's the same aul victims of injustice carry on as always. Get the excuses in early and if you lose then you can say I told you so. I hope the Dubs give them a trouncing though I'm not sure it'll work out that way."
Another hater lol

GreenAndGold74 (Kerry) - Posts: 58 - 19/08/2019 18:45:04    2227644

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In American football they have a refereeing crew of 7 with one referee and 6 line judges. Why not use referees, who are togged out, as umpires for the championship instead of friends of the referee. When the ball is down on the opposite end of the field they can take up position on the 21 yard line and watch for off the ball stuff that the referee can't see and return to behind the goals when the ball comes back up to their end of the field. If there isn't enough referees they could use the top club referees during the regular championship and for the semi finals and final they could use inter county referees.

JuniorBee (Mayo) - Posts: 37 - 19/08/2019 18:54:44    2227647

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Replying To GreenAndGold74:  "Another hater lol"
Spot on lad. Hater of whiners. That I am.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 915 - 19/08/2019 19:24:13    2227650

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Good piece on the whole sorry saga here...

https://www.offtheball.com/podcasts/gaa-on-off-the-ball

realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 7613 - 19/08/2019 19:43:20    2227658

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Jaysus lads any chance of this thread being closed so we can just focus on the players and the match itself?
Gough is reffing the match - end of. I believe he will ref it impartially. He is human and he may make errors but he strikes me as a man of integrity and no bias will be shown.
Perhaps any further discussion of David Gough ought to be conducted after the match- let him be judged on his performance rather than on the basis of supposed loyalties.
I think Kerry folk will be happy with his performance.

avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1037 - 19/08/2019 21:41:16    2227684

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