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Replying To TheFlaker: "You think that post was solely directed at you? Get off the stage there lad. Tonnes of posts on here from lads who say he does nothing from play. Go get the ratios of other forwards who also took frees. People love to knock COC.
And I couldn't give a hoot about his top scorer record, I pointed out the big games where he outscored the other top forwards from Dublin and Kerry from play." Not at all I just appear to be the first one to reply to it. And you didn't post anything about him outscoring other top forwards, you posted his scores from play in a few big games without a comparison but sure not to worry. We'll agree to differ on this one shall we? COC is top class in your eyes and in mine he simply isn't.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 25/07/2019 11:26:14
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I would definitely take Fenton over O'Shea.
OGarmaile (Tyrone) - Posts: 248 - 25/07/2019 11:29:50
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Replying To WanPintWin: "He is indeed a top class footballer and of course it's not an insult to say he's not as good as Fenton. Why would it be? We're simply debating why most people think Fenton should be in the team ahead of him, after the original poster had picked O'Shea.
Why would anyone want him to fail? Anyone who thinks like that is petty and small-minded. My judgements are purely on him as a footballer, of which he is an excellent one. However, he has a number of weaknesses and has been poor in key moments. Highlighting them shouldn't be dismissed as people wanting 'him to fail'. That's a weak argument and ignores any footballing points made.
He will get judged by a higher standard than most, precisely because of the ability he has. Here we're comparing him to the best midfielder in the game.
Finally, anyone who thinks it's more Donal Vaughan's fault, rather than O'Shea's that Moran dominated in that game might be better suited to the armchair. One of those players is not an intercounty midfielder. The other is one of Mayo's leaders for the last 10 years, the biggest and most physical player on the team and one of the best midfielders they've had in my time watching football." Not directed at you. Look at the other comments on here in the past. Look at the comments on here or Twitter during games on AOS and COC, it isn't a small number of people saying the usual stuff, it's bizarre.
100 per cent there are a huge amount of people who watch Mayo hoping they lose and that COC and AOS play poorly. They only tune in for that reason.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 25/07/2019 11:30:22
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Replying To MayoDan: "There were a lot of mistakes in your list but there's no point not picking. Apparently scores against weaker counties shouldn't count? Of the teams we played regularly this decade, Cillian has scored most against Kerry and Dublin." Easy to say there are plenty mistakes without pointing them out. Scores are from official match reports and % worked out pretty easily then. I also acknowledged his contribution goes further than on the scoreboard regardless of how those points are scored.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 25/07/2019 11:34:55
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Aidan O Shea is a top class footballer by the way who has been brilliant all year this year. Despite carrying an injury for the last 3 games, break will do him good. People want him to fail, same for Cillian O Connor but both top class players. Saying he is not as good as Fenton is hardly an insult.
And the lads saying Moran roasted him despite the fact Vaughan was marking Moran goes to show the level of armchair fan on here. The same lads who think Cillian O Connor only scores frees. Get over it lads." ah come on now, he has been pretty far from brilliant all year. If he is injured he shouldnt be playing, why make excuses
I have seen most of the mayo championship games and he has been poor in most of them, Grimley and Burns ran rings around him in the armagh game, cooke took him for 4 points in the galway game, adrian spillane-a debutante got the better of him in the kerry game and he was anonymous again against meath on sunday outside of winning throw ups
On his day he is great but that hasnt been in a while, If AOS was from any other county there wouldnt be half as much hype about him.
Pullhard1985 (USA) - Posts: 68 - 25/07/2019 11:37:40
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Replying To TrueBlue35: "I posted Cillian O'Connors frees to scores from play ratio but you chose to casually ignore that. I'm not arguing the fact he of course contributes in other ways than on the scoreboard but for me he is not a top class forward. He wouldn't get in the Dublin front 6, in fact I'm not sure he'd even be a prominent figure off the bench. I think his top scorer record can be taken with a certain pinch of salt too. He's scored 8-18 of that against London, New York and Limerick!" Great work on the stats, laughable interpretation.
Do we discount every score against teams of a certain level. Thus the hammerings Dublin give out in Leinster should discount every score any of the forwards get against those teams. Easier for Rock to score 1-11 in an 18 point hammering than it is for COC to score 0-8 in a 1 point victory.
He's more than 2 years younger than D Rock, scored way more and there's even a debate? He's even 8 points ahead of the all time scorer, so soon enough you'll be able to stick your 8-18 and he'll still be top scorer. Absolute leader of the highest order and has been since he came in as a 19 year old.
COC deserves every plaudit that comes with his scoring records.
Nailed on players of the decade for 10-15: Murphy, CO'Connor, Ciaran Kilkenny. Rest up for debate
Think Con OC is moulding into someone who could rival the greatest. Absolute machine of a chap, incredibly unselfish and unerringly accurate especially this year. Him and McCaffrey the only thing I like watching about this domination
wicklu (Wicklow) - Posts: 331 - 25/07/2019 11:40:48
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Replying To wicklu: "Great work on the stats, laughable interpretation.
Do we discount every score against teams of a certain level. Thus the hammerings Dublin give out in Leinster should discount every score any of the forwards get against those teams. Easier for Rock to score 1-11 in an 18 point hammering than it is for COC to score 0-8 in a 1 point victory.
He's more than 2 years younger than D Rock, scored way more and there's even a debate? He's even 8 points ahead of the all time scorer, so soon enough you'll be able to stick your 8-18 and he'll still be top scorer. Absolute leader of the highest order and has been since he came in as a 19 year old.
COC deserves every plaudit that comes with his scoring records.
Nailed on players of the decade for 10-15: Murphy, CO'Connor, Ciaran Kilkenny. Rest up for debate
Think Con OC is moulding into someone who could rival the greatest. Absolute machine of a chap, incredibly unselfish and unerringly accurate especially this year. Him and McCaffrey the only thing I like watching about this domination" As I said above I'm agreeing to differ on the quality of O'Connor. Scoring against weak teams of course counts as every score knocked over or under the bar does but it's about interpretation. I for one don't think he'd get in any team ahead of Rock but maybe I'm biased. Rock incidentally has scored 43% of his championship total from play. That's pretty impressive considering he's the free taker also. Then again we have put up cricket scores against poor teams just like Mayo have on occasion over the years by virtue also of being in the qualifiers a couple of times.
Agreed on Con. Have watched him closely since I first saw him run riot v Cork in a minor quarter final v Cork in Thurles and he has even surpassed what level I thought he could get to.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 25/07/2019 12:06:37
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Replying To Aibrean: "The number of All Star awards won by a player is a good indication of his performances and consistency. See list below.
1. S. Cluxton 2
2. K. Lacey 2
3. N McGee 1
4. J. Cooper 2
5. L. Keegan 4
6. C O'Sullivan 3
7. McCaffrey 3
8. McCarthy 3
9. A O'Shea 3
10. P. Flynn 2
11. M. Murphy 3
12. D. Connolly 1
13. McManus 3
14. C O'Connor 1
15. B Brogan 3
Some of the other contenders mentioned by posters have AS awards as follows: C. Kilkenny 3, P. Harte 1, R. McHugh 2, B. Fenton 3, P. Geaney 2, K. Higgins 4, P. Mannion 2, D. Clarke 2, F. McGlynn 2, S. Kavanagh 1, F. McGlynn 1.
So, the selection is fairly robust. However, maybe K. Higgins and C. Kilkenny deserve to be included while N. McGee, D. Connolly and C. O Connor are 'lucky' to be on." Flynn got four All Stars in a row towards the start of the decade.
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 25/07/2019 12:14:49
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Not directed at you. Look at the other comments on here in the past. Look at the comments on here or Twitter during games on AOS and COC, it isn't a small number of people saying the usual stuff, it's bizarre.
100 per cent there are a huge amount of people who watch Mayo hoping they lose and that COC and AOS play poorly. They only tune in for that reason." Those people don't deserve to be part of any serious discussion if that's their motivation. Let's keep this one about football and ignore those who make it personal. It not only gives them oxygen, but also ruins any chance of an actual football debate.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2046 - 25/07/2019 12:19:54
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Hard to not have a dubs dominated team for this, donegal prob second best team of decade are well respresented too but not much of a spread.
S. Cluxton - Dub
J. Cooper - Dub
N. McGee - Don
C. O'Sullivan - Dub
L.Keegan - Mayo
k. Lacey - Don
J. McCaffrey - Dub
Fenton - Dub
D. Moran - Kerry
P.Flynn - Dub
C.Kilkenny - Dub
D. Connolly - Dub
C.o'connor - Mayo
M.Murphy - Don
C. McManus - Mon
Pullhard1985 (USA) - Posts: 68 - 25/07/2019 12:27:10
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For me, personally:
GK: David Clarke (Mayo) - Cluxton's kick-outs revolutionised the game but his shot-stopping isn't really tested given the quality of players in front of him- Clarke, on the other hand, made numerous match-winning saves for Mayo over the decade.
Honourable Mentions: Stephen Cluxton (Dublin), Rory Beggan (Monaghan), Niall Morgan (Tyrone).
RCB: Karl Lacey (Donegal)
FB: Aidan O'Mahony (Kerry)
LCB: Keith Higgins (Mayo)
Honourable Mentions: Paddy McGrath, Neil McGee, Frank McGlynn (Donegal), Chris Barrett, Brendan Harrison (Mayo), Drew Wylie, Colin Walshe, Vinny Corey (Monaghan), Padraig Hampsey (Tyrone), Jonny Cooper, Philly McMahon (Dublin).
RHB: Lee Keegan (Mayo)
CHB: James McCarthy (Dublin)
LHB: Jack McCaffrey (Dublin)
Honourable Mentions: Paul Murphy, Peter Crowley (Kerry), Karl O'Connell, Dessie Mone (Monaghan), Donal Vaughan (Mayo), Kevin Cassidy (Donegal).
MF: Brian Fenton (Dublin)
MF: David Moran (Kerry)
Honourable Mentions: Michael-Dara McAuley, Dennis Bastick (Dublin), Rory Kavanagh, Neil Gallagher (Donegal), Anthoney Maher (Kerry), Aidan Walsh (Cork), Tom Parsons (Mayo), Darren Hughes (Monaghan).
RHF: Ryan McHugh (Donegal)
CHF: Diarmuid Connolly (Dublin)
LHF: Paul Flynn (Dublin)
Honourable Mentions: Kevin McManamon, Con O'Callaghan (Dublin), Mattie Donnelly, Sean Cavanagh (Tyrone), Enda Smith (Roscommon), Odhran McNeilis (Donegal), Donnachadh Walsh (Kerry).
RCF: Conor McManus (Monaghan)
FF: Michael Murphy (Donegal)
LCF: Andy Moran (Mayo)
Honourable Mentions: Patrick Mc Brearty, Colm McFadden (Donegal), Kieran Donaghey, James O'Donnaghue, Colm Cooper (Kerry), Damien Comer, Shane Walsh (Galway), John Heslin (Westmeath), Colm O'Neill (Cork), Cillian O'Connor (Mayo).
'Controversial' Ommissions: Bernard Brogan and Aidan O'Shea - whilst I admire both players, I feel those listed above have delivered more on the big occasions. Cian O'Sullivan, Colm Cavanagh, Peter Harte and Ciaran Kilkenny are all players who don't necessarily fit into traditional GAA positions and I didn't' consider forcing them into a position at the expense of others.
hashtag (Donegal) - Posts: 37 - 25/07/2019 12:30:35
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Sean Cavanagh played this decade, kept the very level of Tyrone football up in that time when many of their great players had retired. Why so few mentions?
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 25/07/2019 12:39:47
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Replying To TrueBlue35: "As I said above I'm agreeing to differ on the quality of O'Connor. Scoring against weak teams of course counts as every score knocked over or under the bar does but it's about interpretation. I for one don't think he'd get in any team ahead of Rock but maybe I'm biased. Rock incidentally has scored 43% of his championship total from play. That's pretty impressive considering he's the free taker also. Then again we have put up cricket scores against poor teams just like Mayo have on occasion over the years by virtue also of being in the qualifiers a couple of times.
Agreed on Con. Have watched him closely since I first saw him run riot v Cork in a minor quarter final v Cork in Thurles and he has even surpassed what level I thought he could get to." What cricket scores have mayo put up against poor teams? Cillian didn't play against New York this year and hammerings have been few and far between for us apart from that. Not comparable to Rock at all in that regard.
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 420 - 25/07/2019 13:37:45
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Replying To TrueBlue35: "Easy to say there are plenty mistakes without pointing them out. Scores are from official match reports and % worked out pretty easily then. I also acknowledged his contribution goes further than on the scoreboard regardless of how those points are scored." The Mayo News went through his stats after the Kerry game and Cillian gets just over 30% from open play. So that's your 1st mistake. He's more prolific from play and in total in the latter part of the championship as well. For example, he has an average of 8.4 points per game against Dublin in championship.
MayoDan (Mayo) - Posts: 420 - 25/07/2019 13:41:55
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1.Cluxton
2.Cooper
3.McGee
4.O'Sullivan
5.Keegan
6.Lacey
7.McCaffery
8.Fenton
9.Sean Cavanagh
10.Connolly
11.Murphy
12.Kilkenny
13.McManus
14.C.O'Connor
15.B.Brogan
boman11 (Antrim) - Posts: 237 - 25/07/2019 13:54:47
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Replying To MayoDan: "The Mayo News went through his stats after the Kerry game and Cillian gets just over 30% from open play. So that's your 1st mistake. He's more prolific from play and in total in the latter part of the championship as well. For example, he has an average of 8.4 points per game against Dublin in championship." Sssshhh he only scores against London and New York lad.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 25/07/2019 14:32:38
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Replying To MayoDan: "The Mayo News went through his stats after the Kerry game and Cillian gets just over 30% from open play. So that's your 1st mistake. He's more prolific from play and in total in the latter part of the championship as well. For example, he has an average of 8.4 points per game against Dublin in championship." I've gone through every championship match report (source: RTE) from his debut right through to his last game and his from play average comes out at just over 27%. If you want to split hairs (who's to say I'm right and the Mayo News are wrong) over a 3% difference in calculations then good luck to you. I never asked what he scored v Dublin but interestingly he scored less than 20% of his tally against the Dubs from open play. Rock has scored 26% of his scores v Mayo from open play. We could talk ourselves in circles based on stats and even the free count can be conveyed in different ways i.e. how many were actually tough frees, did he win a large portion of them himself etc etc.
"He's more prolific from play and in total in the latter part of the championship as well" - I'll let you rustle up the evidence on this ;)
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 25/07/2019 14:35:38
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Replying To MayoDan: "What cricket scores have mayo put up against poor teams? Cillian didn't play against New York this year and hammerings have been few and far between for us apart from that. Not comparable to Rock at all in that regard." There's six cricket scores you've put up against poor teams:
Mayo 5-19 Limerick 3-07 (he scores 3-09)
Mayo 5-11 London 0-10 (he scores 3-04)
Mayo 2-21 Derry 1-13 (he scores 12 points)
Mayo 4-18 New York 0-08 (he scores 2-05)
Mayo 6-25 Sligo 2-11 (he scores 1-07)
Mayo 4-20 Leitrim 0-10 (he scores 0-06)
And before you fly back about Dublin's opposition then I can fully admit we've dished out some fierce beatings to bang average opposition in Leinster over the last number of years. Just don't come on disputing Mayo don't do the same when it's just not true.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 25/07/2019 14:44:48
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Replying To JoeSoap: "1. Cluxton
2. Lacey
3. N McGee
4. McMahon
5. Keegan
6. C O'Sullivan
7. McCaffrey
8. McCarthy
9. Fenton
10. Kilkenny
11. Murphy
12. Connolly
13. Geaney
14. C O'Connor
15. B Brogan
--
Felt bad leaving out McManus but I really think Geaney has been sensational this decade and only for some eejits in the media he'd be better appreciated. In every position as well I felt like I could have just subbed in a Dublin player, what a team they've been. From a Donegal POV I really wanted to get Neil Gallagher or Frank McGlynn in there but really couldn't justify dropping any of the half-backs or midfield in my view.
Hard to leave out McManus, Peter Harte, Ryan McHugh but they all play in positions that are overflowing with fantastic players.
Would be interesting to have a "B" team of players who have yet to win an All-Ireland as you would get to see the amount of great talent that's out there across a good variety of counties." Team of the decade no All Ireland Medal.
1. Rory Beggan
2. Keith Higgins
3. Ronan McNamee
4. Donal Keoghan
5. Lee Keegan
6. Chrissy McKaigue
7. Boyle/Karl O'Connell
8. Gary Brennan
9.Darren Hughes
10. Dan Flynn
11. Jamie Clarke
12. Peter Harte
13. Conor McManus
14. Andy Moran
15. Cillian O'Connor
Subs. David Clarke, Brendan Murphy, Aaron Kernan, Caolan Mooney, Mattie Donnelly, Michael Quinlavin, Niall McNamee, Drew Wylie.
Probably missing loads.
Meathmaverick (Meath) - Posts: 106 - 25/07/2019 14:46:06
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Replying To TrueBlue35: "There's six cricket scores you've put up against poor teams:
Mayo 5-19 Limerick 3-07 (he scores 3-09)
Mayo 5-11 London 0-10 (he scores 3-04)
Mayo 2-21 Derry 1-13 (he scores 12 points)
Mayo 4-18 New York 0-08 (he scores 2-05)
Mayo 6-25 Sligo 2-11 (he scores 1-07)
Mayo 4-20 Leitrim 0-10 (he scores 0-06)
And before you fly back about Dublin's opposition then I can fully admit we've dished out some fierce beatings to bang average opposition in Leinster over the last number of years. Just don't come on disputing Mayo don't do the same when it's just not true." Ahh but sure it's different when it's not Dublin, did you not know that?
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 25/07/2019 14:47:41
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