National Forum

Single Tier Championship Reforms

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Replying To Canuck:  "No you are basically looking at what will improve the lot (competitiveness) of the teams closest to the elites stopping at 12 approx teams. Number 12 won't compete in the next 100 years never mind number 33. The reality is the next 20 teams are so far out of their dept that Houdini could not help them compete with the top.Their standards are not close to the top clubs never mind the top counties. These formats are rubbish and anyone on here do not believe for a second that it will improve football in Kilkenny, Waterford , Carlow, Wexford etc. Again I say put the best players in these counties in position where they can succeed if you care about them. Otherwise tell it as it is, you do not give a sh-t about the bottom feeders."
No, I'm not. Most players want to represent their own county. You want find a player from West Limerick willing to play for Clare.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 24/07/2019 21:56:48    2216016

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "A proposal which retains regional divisions.

Divide the 32 teams into 4 conferences: North, East, West, and South.

The 4 conference champions advance to the All-Ireland semi-finals.

Northern Conference

Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, Armagh, Monaghan, and Tyrone.

Group A

Fermanagh
Tyrone
Monaghan
Derry

Group B

Armagh
Donegal
Antrim
Down

Eastern Conference

Dublin, Louth, Meath, Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Wicklow, and Laois.

Group A

Wicklow
Laois
Louth
Westmeath

Group B

Offaly
Kildare
Meath
Dublin

Southern Conference

Kerry, Limerick, Cork, Tipperary, Carlow, Wexford, Waterford, and London.

Group A

Tipperary
London
Waterford
Kerry

Group B

Wexford
Limerick
Carlow
Cork

Western Conference

Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Longford, Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, and Clare.

Group A

Mayo
Clare
Roscommon
Cavan

Group B

Longford
Galway
Sligo
Leitrim

A backdoor could be introduced. The 4 highest ranked teams could play the conference losers. Alternatively, the 8 teams who finish 3rd in their group could play a wild card round. The winners will play against the conference losers and so on.

I know that it will hard for some teams to accept being moved out of their province but I've tried to retain the regional rivalries as much as I possibly could."
Complex beats same 'drab as now' any day.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 24/07/2019 22:14:54    2216032

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "No, I'm not. Most players want to represent their own county. You want find a player from West Limerick willing to play for Clare."
Some system other than trying to sell that making tiers, changing formats will get the results wished for. Incidentally I never proposed a player from West Limerick would represent Clare. He would be representing Limerick and Clare. Why not ask them? I don't thing anyone can be in denial that format change will do any thing for the standards of the majority of the teams. Open to any suggestions that will.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 563 - 24/07/2019 22:23:30    2216040

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Your proposals tend to be convoluted. The format needs to be easy to follow."
For simple 8x4, I'd start with a conventional 1 team from each NFL div (so, 8 x1234 with no 1v1 games).

But to improve - remove 1v4 mismatches - so, switch 4x 4 seeds for 4x 1 seeds in the other groups (so, 4 x1123 and 4 x2344 with 4x 1v1 games).

But to improve even more - have 2x 1123v1123 and 2x 2344v2344 (so, all play 4 matches with 8x 1v1 games).

But to improve even more more - lessen dead rubbers - by having 4 extra KO berths to the typical KO 16 - for a KO 20 in all (5 from each 8).

Top 5 from 2 strong groups of 8 (A1, A2) to KO 16.
Top 5 from 2 weaker groups of 8 (B1, B2) to Prelim KO Rd -2nd hosts other group 5th and 3rd hosts other 4th - to eliminate 4 teams - and reduce to Rd of 16.
B1 v B2 group winners play for the Tier 2 title before both advance to KO 16 (Tier 1).
KO 16 are 8x1 seeds and 8x 2 seeds in the following year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 25/07/2019 03:23:10    2216107

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KO 16 are 8x1 seeds and 8x other seeds in the 2 strong groups (A1 and A2) of the following year.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 25/07/2019 03:46:58    2216108

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Replying To Canuck:  "I have to ask how any of these format is going to change the standard of the bottom teams. Define what is going to be regarded as improvement, how it is going to be measured and what are the consequences when it fails like many changes before it for the last 100 years. I do appreciate that no one can predict an out come but if you do not have specific goals with time lines you are just stumbling around in the dark."
I don't think success should be measured by whether these teams win an All Ireland.

I think success would be a lower dropout rate of players from these teams county panels because their players are getting a better season.

I don't like your world view that all that matters is winning the All Ireland or Provincial titles.

I think rewarding players for their efforts in training with a good competition structure that they want to play in would be success.

I think a format that improved the promotion of our games and got more players involved in both codes at all levels would be a measure of success.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2602 - 25/07/2019 05:00:30    2216110

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Replying To Canuck:  "Some system other than trying to sell that making tiers, changing formats will get the results wished for. Incidentally I never proposed a player from West Limerick would represent Clare. He would be representing Limerick and Clare. Why not ask them? I don't thing anyone can be in denial that format change will do any thing for the standards of the majority of the teams. Open to any suggestions that will."
I have. They only want to play for Limerick. The rivalry between Limerick and Clare extends beyond hurling.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 25/07/2019 10:30:38    2216162

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Replying To omahant:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "A proposal which retains regional divisions.

Divide the 32 teams into 4 conferences: North, East, West, and South.

The 4 conference champions advance to the All-Ireland semi-finals.

Northern Conference

Donegal, Derry, Antrim, Down, Fermanagh, Armagh, Monaghan, and Tyrone.

Group A

Fermanagh
Tyrone
Monaghan
Derry

Group B

Armagh
Donegal
Antrim
Down

Eastern Conference

Dublin, Louth, Meath, Westmeath, Offaly, Kildare, Wicklow, and Laois.

Group A

Wicklow
Laois
Louth
Westmeath

Group B

Offaly
Kildare
Meath
Dublin

Southern Conference

Kerry, Limerick, Cork, Tipperary, Carlow, Wexford, Waterford, and London.

Group A

Tipperary
London
Waterford
Kerry

Group B

Wexford
Limerick
Carlow
Cork

Western Conference

Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Longford, Cavan, Leitrim, Sligo, and Clare.

Group A

Mayo
Clare
Roscommon
Cavan

Group B

Longford
Galway
Sligo
Leitrim

A backdoor could be introduced. The 4 highest ranked teams could play the conference losers. Alternatively, the 8 teams who finish 3rd in their group could play a wild card round. The winners will play against the conference losers and so on.

I know that it will hard for some teams to accept being moved out of their province but I've tried to retain the regional rivalries as much as I possibly could."
Complex beats same 'drab as now' any day."
I prefer to be realistic.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 25/07/2019 10:34:35    2216166

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think success should be measured by whether these teams win an All Ireland.

I think success would be a lower dropout rate of players from these teams county panels because their players are getting a better season.

I don't like your world view that all that matters is winning the All Ireland or Provincial titles.

I think rewarding players for their efforts in training with a good competition structure that they want to play in would be success.

I think a format that improved the promotion of our games and got more players involved in both codes at all levels would be a measure of success."
I never said success should be measured by winning an All-Ireland. Players drop out or refuse to get involved with football in weaker counties because there team have no chance of being COMPETITIVE except in what they consider a meaningless division or competition. 48 spectators have been recorded at a division 4 football round. Good luck with getting the best football players in Kilkenny training for that situation.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 563 - 25/07/2019 13:36:05    2216279

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "I have. They only want to play for Limerick. The rivalry between Limerick and Clare extends beyond hurling."
I am glad to see you completed a survey for the GAA. A person who talks about tribalism would be a perfect person to do that. The rivalry between clubs does not stop players from playing together in a county team.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 563 - 25/07/2019 13:42:14    2216282

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Replying To Canuck:  "I am glad to see you completed a survey for the GAA. A person who talks about tribalism would be a perfect person to do that. The rivalry between clubs does not stop players from playing together in a county team."
Conduct a survey of the entire association and you'll get the same answer. The weaker counties haven't shown any interest in uniting in the past 100 years. They won't start now.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 25/07/2019 14:54:50    2216325

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "Conduct a survey of the entire association and you'll get the same answer. The weaker counties haven't shown any interest in uniting in the past 100 years. They won't start now."
That may be correct but what difference has changes to divisions, formats, McGrath Cup, Tommy Moore Cup etc. made in these weaker counties in 100 years. Combining counties may not be feasible either but by introducing tiers or formats will do nothing for them in the next 100 years. Crazy talking about putting Waterford and Kerry in the same group and crazy thinking that Waterford will compete with them in the Munster Championship now. As suggested I am not saying that winning All-Ireland is how to judge the merit of our sport but competitiveness is. The reality is the bottom two third teams are not close to being competitive with the top third and that is not good for the development of the sport.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 563 - 25/07/2019 15:39:25    2216363

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Replying To Canuck:  "That may be correct but what difference has changes to divisions, formats, McGrath Cup, Tommy Moore Cup etc. made in these weaker counties in 100 years. Combining counties may not be feasible either but by introducing tiers or formats will do nothing for them in the next 100 years. Crazy talking about putting Waterford and Kerry in the same group and crazy thinking that Waterford will compete with them in the Munster Championship now. As suggested I am not saying that winning All-Ireland is how to judge the merit of our sport but competitiveness is. The reality is the bottom two third teams are not close to being competitive with the top third and that is not good for the development of the sport."
The answer for that issue is funding. The structure of the All-Ireland should still be changed whether it be reformed single tier format or a tiered championship.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 25/07/2019 15:50:12    2216372

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "The answer for that issue is funding. The structure of the All-Ireland should still be changed whether it be reformed single tier format or a tiered championship."
Funding for sure but coaching and exposer for the top players in the weaker teams who would make an impression on the top teams but not as four or five individuals on their existing county teams. I grew up in a parish that only played gaelic football for most of its early existence. My dad played for Munster when the railway cup was a big deal. Many more in my county have excelled at football since (60 years watching) but no one would know their names. Thinking outside the box required and not stuck in all our old ways. I don't believe that anyone in the GAA believes a second tier will make the bottom teams more competitive or encourage young players to play in those counties.Tinkering for the sake of tinkering with no expectation.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 563 - 25/07/2019 19:14:02    2216464

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Replying To Canuck:  "Funding for sure but coaching and exposer for the top players in the weaker teams who would make an impression on the top teams but not as four or five individuals on their existing county teams. I grew up in a parish that only played gaelic football for most of its early existence. My dad played for Munster when the railway cup was a big deal. Many more in my county have excelled at football since (60 years watching) but no one would know their names. Thinking outside the box required and not stuck in all our old ways. I don't believe that anyone in the GAA believes a second tier will make the bottom teams more competitive or encourage young players to play in those counties.Tinkering for the sake of tinkering with no expectation."
It won't happen. I've listened to interviews with Emlyn Mulligan of Leitrim. He wants to play for Leitrim, not a combined Leitrim-Sligo team.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 25/07/2019 21:48:01    2216534

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Why is it that whenever a proposal for a new championship is brought up, people come up with the lazy group stage idea. Group stages remove competitiveness in the later rounds. Look at the super 8's, 2 of the four games next weekend are meaningless while Meath have nothing to play for against Kerry. All championship games should mean something, not having some descend into glorified challenge matches.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1550 - 26/07/2019 07:04:06    2216614

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Replying To PK57:  "Why is it that whenever a proposal for a new championship is brought up, people come up with the lazy group stage idea. Group stages remove competitiveness in the later rounds. Look at the super 8's, 2 of the four games next weekend are meaningless while Meath have nothing to play for against Kerry. All championship games should mean something, not having some descend into glorified challenge matches."
My proposal can be a straight knockout competition. Put in a backdoor so teams can have a second chance.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 26/07/2019 12:39:10    2216735

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "It won't happen. I've listened to interviews with Emlyn Mulligan of Leitrim. He wants to play for Leitrim, not a combined Leitrim-Sligo team."
The view of one individual is not a good survey. A properly purposed plan with funding, coaching and incentives may interest players. However you are right it will never happen. Why? Zero interest in lifting the bottom teams and their top players. Lots of interest in selling the impression of wanting to.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 563 - 26/07/2019 13:45:37    2216769

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Replying To Canuck:  "The view of one individual is not a good survey. A properly purposed plan with funding, coaching and incentives may interest players. However you are right it will never happen. Why? Zero interest in lifting the bottom teams and their top players. Lots of interest in selling the impression of wanting to."
It has nothing to do with that.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 134 - 26/07/2019 14:22:12    2216782

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Something straight forward for a group phase AI -

Top 15 Open Draw - to 3 groups of 5 - all play 4 games - 8 advance as top seeds (1-8) drawn away in KO Rd of 16 open draw - each top 2 and 2 best other records form the 8.

Other 17 Open Draw - to 2 groups of 5 and 1 of 7 (latter, 3v2,2 & pairs play off) - all play 4 games - 8 advance as low seeds (9 to 16) drawn at home in KO Rd of 16 open draw - each top 2 and 2 best other records form the 8.

AI KO QFs (1 hosts 8, 4 hosts 5 etc)
AI SFs (at neutral Prov venues - best plays lowest) AI Final.

QF 8, plus best 7 other Top 15 records, to following year's Top 15 Open Draw.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1610 - 03/08/2019 02:06:23    2219949

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