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Super 8 General Discussion

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Replying To tirawleybaron:  "I like this idea but I think your cutting off too many in tier 2.

Tier 1 (seeded by league finish) 16 teams
Munster - 1 group of 3.
Connaught - 1 group of 3.
Leinster - 1 group of 4
Ulster - 2 groups of 3.

Tier 2 -
Munster - 1 group of 3.
Connaught - 1 group of 3.
Leinster - 1 group of 3 and 1 of 4
Ulster - 1 group of 3.

Qualifier Round 1: 8 non provincial finalists (open draw)
Qualifier Round 2: 4 round 4 winners v tier 2 provincial winners
Qualifier Round 3: 4 Qualifier Round 2 winners v 4 provincial Losers
Qualifier Round 4: 4 Round 3 winners
Champions Round: 4 Provincial Winners.

Quarter-finals: 2 Champions Round losers and 2 Qualifier Round 4 winners.
Tier 2 semis played the same day

Semi-finals: 2 Champions Round winners and 2 Quarter-final winners.
Tier 2 final played same day as lesser attended semi (I.e Semi involving Kerry, Cork or the like)"
I'm not cutting off too many in Tier 2. My idea for Tier 2 is two regional groups:

West Group: 2 Munster and 2 Connaught. Top 2 in the group play each other in the semi-finals. Semi-final winner promoted to their province.

East Group: 3 Leinster and 1 Ulster. Top 2 in the group play each other in the semi-finals. Semi-final winner promoted to their province.

West semi-final winner v East semi-final winner in the Tier 2 final. Tier 2 winner joins the All-Ireland qualifiers of the current year. It's a variant of the McDonagh Cup that will suit football.

My suggestion sees 1/3 from each province and the Tier 2 winner advance to the final 12.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9187 - 08/08/2019 10:25:45    2222598

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The double elimination ye speak of should work as follows:

Champions Round:
Kerry v Donegal - Kerry win.
Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin win.

Preliminary Quarter-finals:
Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win.
Mayo v Meath - Meath win.

Quarter-finals:
Donegal v Mayo - Mayo win
Roscommon v Tyrone - Tyrone win.

Semi-finals:
Dublin v Mayo
Kerry v Tyrone

AFL 2018 Example:
Qualifying Finals:
Richmond (1) v Hawthorn (4) - Richmond win.
West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast win.

Elimination Finals:
Melbourne (5) v Geelong (8) - Melbourne win.
Sydney (6) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Greater Western Sydney win.

Semi-finals:
Hawthorn (4) v Melbourne (5) - Melbourne win.
Collingwood (3) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Melbourne win.

Preliminary Finals:
Richmond (1) v Collingwood (3) - Collingwood win.
West Coast (2) v Melbourne (5) - West Coast win.

Grand Final:
West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast AFL Champions 2018."
The provincial champions won't agree to be seeded against eachother so a champions round is a dead end.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 08/08/2019 10:40:19    2222606

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "[quote=himachechy:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "It would work better if the round-robin was ditched. Moving to a double-elimination ensures more games. All of them will be meaningful. <b>Quarter-Final</b> <u>Round 1</u> Dublin v Cork Roscommon v Tyrone Donegal v Meath Kerry v Mayo <u>Round 2A</u> Winners of Round 1. The 2 winning teams enter semi-finals. The losers enter Round 3. Dublin v Tyrone Donegal v Kerry <u>Round 2B</u> Losers of Round 1. The winners enter Round 3 with the losers of Round 2A. Cork v Roscommon Meath v Mayo <u>Round 3</u> Roscommon v Donegal Mayo v Tyrone <b>Semi-Finals</b> Dublin v Mayo Kerry v Donegal"</div>Think I read this proposal somewhere else but didn't fully understand it. Your example sets it out well. I think it is a very good idea. Having a round robin at this stage of the championship is wrong. In pretty much all other sports the round robin is at the start with the concept of 'making the playoffs'"
Down uses the same format for their football championship."]It's better than the super 8s definitely.

It's still a bit weird to have another back door added in to the original back door.

It all keeps adding gives for a small few counties rather than fixing things for everyone.

There'll still be the fixture congestion come the latter stages that we're seeing now.

I think it's just another half measure."]I'd rather not have the Super 8s or another backdoor but here we are. As for all the proposals. Most aren't realistic. A two tier championship will more than likely fail. Too much opposition and a lack of interest from fans. A knockout championship with a backdoor in place to the quarter-finals. Retain the provincials but separate them from the All-Ireland series."]A two tier championship will more than likely fail. Too much opposition and a lack of interest from fans.


I don't agree with this statement.

I think the tier 2 championship from the GAA would fail.

I don't feel a properly run league competition would fail.

I also think the important thing is whether tier 1 would work. If tier 1 works it then elevates the importance of tier 2 by being the route to the top tier.

You look at the Championship playoffs in English soccer. They're important because they're the way to get to the Premier League.

I think the tier 1 of 2 groups of 8 teams would work.

There's way less chance of dead rubbers in this format than the super 8s for instance.

So 2 groups of 8. 1st to semifinals, 2nd and 3rd to quarterfinals. 3 in total relegated. Bottom team in each group plus a loser of a playoff between the 7th placed teams.

After round 6 teams will have anywhere from 0-12 points

0 or 1 point: probably last in the group but may have outside chances of finishing 7th or even 6th.

2-4 points right in a relegation dog fight. 6th, 7th and 8th places all in play.

5-6 points least likely to have much to play for. A team on 5 points may not be mathematically safe, a team on 6 points may not be out just yet, though.

7-9 points Well in the hunt for a top 3 spot
10-12 points very likely to qualify, top spot may not be decided yet.

That's an exciting competition.

There's also evidence from the hurling championship that group games are popular.

The attendances are up on similar knockout games from 2 years ago.

I just think football needs to get its teams playing more meaningful games.

Look at these 2 possible tier 1 groups.

Dublin, Mayo, Donegal, Roscommon, Armagh, Kildare, Cork, Laois

Kerry, Tyrone, Galway, Monaghan, Meath, Cavan, Clare, Fermanagh

I think you'd have a lot of exciting games in there. The games being played around the country and how home advantage plays into it could be interesting.

Take Donegal they could have a season of

Dublin, Armagh, Kildare at home then the other 4 teams on the road. How would Dublin fair going up to Ballybofey? How would going down to Cork affect them.

I just think you're creating a competition that allows interest and stories to generate.

It's also pretty much the easiest competition to understand that you'll read on here and is very fair.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 08/08/2019 12:30:00    2222641

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To legendzxix:  "The double elimination ye speak of should work as follows: <b>Champions Round: </b>Kerry v Donegal - Kerry win. Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin win. <b>Preliminary Quarter-finals: </b>Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win. Mayo v Meath - Meath win. <b>Quarter-finals: </b>Donegal v Mayo - Mayo win Roscommon v Tyrone - Tyrone win. <b>Semi-finals: </b>Dublin v Mayo Kerry v Tyrone <u><b>AFL 2018 Example:</b></u> Qualifying Finals: Richmond (1) v Hawthorn (4) - Richmond win. West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast win. Elimination Finals: Melbourne (5) v Geelong (8) - Melbourne win. Sydney (6) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Greater Western Sydney win. Semi-finals: Hawthorn (4) v Melbourne (5) - Melbourne win. Collingwood (3) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Melbourne win. Preliminary Finals: Richmond (1) v Collingwood (3) - Collingwood win. West Coast (2) v Melbourne (5) - West Coast win. Grand Final: West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast AFL Champions 2018."</div>The provincial champions won't agree to be seeded against eachother so a champions round is a dead end."
I think you might be misunderstanding the concept.

The advantage of being in the Champions Round is that the winners advances to the semi-finals and the losers enter the quarter-finals to take on a qualifier county. This has been a suggestion by Dublin and Tyrone. There is strong merit in it.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9187 - 08/08/2019 13:03:34    2222653

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@Whammo86

Can work within the confines of the provincial and All-Ireland structure? Hurling has it's format more or less nailed down.

The provincial group stage or Super 16 structure I've outlined operate within the confines available.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9187 - 08/08/2019 13:09:04    2222655

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Replying To legendzxix:  "
Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "The double elimination ye speak of should work as follows: <b>Champions Round: </b>Kerry v Donegal - Kerry win. Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin win. <b>Preliminary Quarter-finals: </b>Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win. Mayo v Meath - Meath win. <b>Quarter-finals: </b>Donegal v Mayo - Mayo win Roscommon v Tyrone - Tyrone win. <b>Semi-finals: </b>Dublin v Mayo Kerry v Tyrone <u><b>AFL 2018 Example:</b></u> Qualifying Finals: Richmond (1) v Hawthorn (4) - Richmond win. West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast win. Elimination Finals: Melbourne (5) v Geelong (8) - Melbourne win. Sydney (6) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Greater Western Sydney win. Semi-finals: Hawthorn (4) v Melbourne (5) - Melbourne win. Collingwood (3) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Melbourne win. Preliminary Finals: Richmond (1) v Collingwood (3) - Collingwood win. West Coast (2) v Melbourne (5) - West Coast win. Grand Final: West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast AFL Champions 2018."</div>The provincial champions won't agree to be seeded against eachother so a champions round is a dead end."
I think you might be misunderstanding the concept.

The advantage of being in the Champions Round is that the winners advances to the semi-finals and the losers enter the quarter-finals to take on a qualifier county. This has been a suggestion by Dublin and Tyrone. There is strong merit in it."]Provincial champions get home advantage in the first Super 8 games. They won't give it up. I don't think they should be seeded against in the first round.

Hawkeye9212 (Donegal) - Posts: 266 - 08/08/2019 13:29:45    2222661

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Replying To legendzxix:  "@Whammo86

Can work within the confines of the provincial and All-Ireland structure? Hurling has it's format more or less nailed down.

The provincial group stage or Super 16 structure I've outlined operate within the confines available."
I don't think that's important.

To be honest I think the hurling works in spite of its Provincial based make up.

Structurally there are big problems with the hurling format caused directly by the Provincial based nature of it.

The unfair promotion/relegation situation is a major issue.

The exclusivity of only 1 place available for a non top 9 team.

The potential advantage that could be earned from being relegated to the Joe McDonagh.
If Kerry were to win the McDonagh for instance, would it be in say Waterford's interest to be relegated to get an easier path to an All Ireland. A situation like that has the potential to undermine the very integrity of the competition.

The hurling has worked because there's teams around the same standard playing regular games against one another.

I think the competition was put together badly and it's only because the teams are evenly matched that things have held together. I think the politics that created a lot of the bad aspects of the competition are going to in the end harm it badly.

I actually think hurling would do well to just go to 2 groups of 6, top 3 in each to the playoffs, 6th place in each to the relegation playoff.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 08/08/2019 13:49:46    2222670

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To legendzxix:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "The double elimination ye speak of should work as follows: <b>Champions Round: </b>Kerry v Donegal - Kerry win. Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin win. <b>Preliminary Quarter-finals: </b>Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win. Mayo v Meath - Meath win. <b>Quarter-finals: </b>Donegal v Mayo - Mayo win Roscommon v Tyrone - Tyrone win. <b>Semi-finals: </b>Dublin v Mayo Kerry v Tyrone <u><b>AFL 2018 Example:</b></u> Qualifying Finals: Richmond (1) v Hawthorn (4) - Richmond win. West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast win. Elimination Finals: Melbourne (5) v Geelong (8) - Melbourne win. Sydney (6) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Greater Western Sydney win. Semi-finals: Hawthorn (4) v Melbourne (5) - Melbourne win. Collingwood (3) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Melbourne win. Preliminary Finals: Richmond (1) v Collingwood (3) - Collingwood win. West Coast (2) v Melbourne (5) - West Coast win. Grand Final: West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast AFL Champions 2018."</div>The provincial champions won't agree to be seeded against eachother so a champions round is a dead end."
I think you might be misunderstanding the concept.

The advantage of being in the Champions Round is that the winners advances to the semi-finals and the losers enter the quarter-finals to take on a qualifier county. This has been a suggestion by Dublin and Tyrone. There is strong merit in it."]Provincial champions get home advantage in the first Super 8 games. They won't give it up. I don't think they should be seeded against in the first round."]Your making a good point about the Super 8 home advantage. Killarney and Ballybofey were buzzing. It's a positive from the Super 8.

It's where a Super 16 giving provincial champions 3 home games and all other teams 1 home game might suit?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9187 - 08/08/2019 14:00:26    2222675

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Replying To Hawkeye9212:  "
Replying To legendzxix:  "[quote=Hawkeye9212:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "The double elimination ye speak of should work as follows: <b>Champions Round: </b>Kerry v Donegal - Kerry win. Dublin v Roscommon - Dublin win. <b>Preliminary Quarter-finals: </b>Cork v Tyrone - Tyrone win. Mayo v Meath - Meath win. <b>Quarter-finals: </b>Donegal v Mayo - Mayo win Roscommon v Tyrone - Tyrone win. <b>Semi-finals: </b>Dublin v Mayo Kerry v Tyrone <u><b>AFL 2018 Example:</b></u> Qualifying Finals: Richmond (1) v Hawthorn (4) - Richmond win. West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast win. Elimination Finals: Melbourne (5) v Geelong (8) - Melbourne win. Sydney (6) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Greater Western Sydney win. Semi-finals: Hawthorn (4) v Melbourne (5) - Melbourne win. Collingwood (3) v Greater Western Sydney (7) - Melbourne win. Preliminary Finals: Richmond (1) v Collingwood (3) - Collingwood win. West Coast (2) v Melbourne (5) - West Coast win. Grand Final: West Coast (2) v Collingwood (3) - West Coast AFL Champions 2018."</div>The provincial champions won't agree to be seeded against eachother so a champions round is a dead end."
I think you might be misunderstanding the concept.

The advantage of being in the Champions Round is that the winners advances to the semi-finals and the losers enter the quarter-finals to take on a qualifier county. This has been a suggestion by Dublin and Tyrone. There is strong merit in it."]Provincial champions get home advantage in the first Super 8 games. They won't give it up. I don't think they should be seeded against in the first round."]Provincial champions would be a round ahead of the qualifiers.

The losing Provincial champions after the championship round play the 2 winning qualifier round 5 teams.

The Provincial champions get a much more favourable situation this way than any other way.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4614 - 08/08/2019 14:05:02    2222678

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Hawkeye9212's suggestion does have very strong merit. There is a lot to be said for a format that guarantees the provincial winners a home game in the first round of the All-Ireland Championship.

This Final 8 Stage with double elimination is best suited to a provincial group structure.

Provincial Group Stage:
Munster - 1 group of 4. 2 finalists.
Connaught - 1 group of 4. 2 finalists.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4. 4 semi-finalists.
Leinster - 2 groups of 4. 4 semi-finalists.

Tier 2:
West Group: 2 Munster and 2 Connaught. Top 2 into West semi-final, with winner promoted to their province.
East Group: 3 Leinster and 1 Ulster. Top 2 into East semi-final, with winner promoted to their province.

Tier 2 Final: West semi-final winner v East semi-final winner. Winner enters All-Ireland Qualifier Round.

Ulster Qualifier Round: Ulster losing semi-finalists. Winner enters All-Ireland Qualifier Round.

All-Ireland Qualifier Round (8 teams): 4 provincial runners-up, 2 Leinster losing semi-finalists, 1 Ulster qualifier and 1 Tier 2 winner.

All-Ireland Championship Final 8 Stage:
Round 1: Provincial Winners at home v Qualifier Round winner.

Kerry v Mayo
Donegal v Meath
Dublin v Cork
Roscommon v Tyrone

Round 2A: 4 Round 1 winners. Neutral venue.

Kerry v Donegal
Dublin v Tyrone

Round 2B: 4 Round 1 losers. Neutral venue.

Mayo v Meath
Cork v Roscommon

Quarter-finals: Round 2A losers v Round 2B winners. Croke Park.

Donegal v Roscommon
Tyrone v Mayo


Semi-finals: Round 2A winners v Quarter-final winners. Croke Park.

Dublin v Donegal or Roscommon
Kerry v Tyrone or Mayo

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 9187 - 08/08/2019 18:04:36    2222763

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