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Listen the facts are clear for anyone to see
1996-2006. No funding from croke park. Zero all irelands.
2007-2018. €18 million from croke park. 6 all irelands.
How/why are people still arguing that funding doesn't buy success when the money is the only thing extra Dublin recieved.
Back in 1996 they still had a massive population compared with the rest and they still played in croke park. So the only thing to change is they received massive amounts of investment.
If you disagree please just facts.
kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 26/07/2019 12:55:37
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Replying To kevin03: "Listen the facts are clear for anyone to see
1996-2006. No funding from croke park. Zero all irelands.
2007-2018. €18 million from croke park. 6 all irelands.
How/why are people still arguing that funding doesn't buy success when the money is the only thing extra Dublin recieved.
Back in 1996 they still had a massive population compared with the rest and they still played in croke park. So the only thing to change is they received massive amounts of investment.
If you disagree please just facts." 1: It's not 18 million spent directly on the senior football team.
2: It's funding invested across the board on both codes and genders - not 18 million spent on football, so the figure spent directly on football coaching alone is a great deal lower.
3: It's games development spent on school children boys and girls how to kick/hit a ball or catch a ball. You can't coach a donkey into being a race horse. Look at the list of current Dublin players many of which come from successful sporting families.
4: Your logic is overly simplistic- it's up there with saying that Dublin has 1.6 million people to pick from, your ignoring glaring holes in your logic.
5: Your post is very narrowly skewed and doesn't take into account the long list of Dub players that had zero interaction with the supposed benefits of this funding and nothing would have been won without these players.
*Ive provided a list of said players on previous posts
6: It doesn't account for men like Pat Gilroy, Mick Deegan, Dessie Farrell, Jason Sherlock, Mickey Whelan, Declan Darcy and Jim Gavin being the outstanding servants that they are and their huge contribution to all this success.
No level of funding to school children has molded those men into the great coaches and managers they proved to be.
Nothing would be won with them
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 26/07/2019 13:17:28
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It's clear that the massive level of funding has had an impact on Dublin's success. Lets not forget the Club Champioinships (Dublin teams have won 5/11 recent Football Championships (and then Cual's two in Hurling).
But that's not the whole story. How much credit does Jim Gavin get? He'll probably not be remembered in the same light as the likes of Mick O'Dwyer, Sean Boylan, Brian Cody and even Mickey Harte because of this funding. Even if there was no extra funding there, the population base of Dublin would be used as an argument. The truth is Dublin underperformed in the 30 years up to 2011 and now that balance has been redressed.
I'd like to see some metrics other than All Ireland's won being used to measure the funding.
For example
1. The participation rates per county in comparison to the funding levels.
2. Increase in particiapation as per above over the last decade.
3. Funding level per head of population - easy enough to work out
4. Funding level per number of club players in each county
Dublin's population would also have some dynamics to be considered such as the larger immigrant base. How does that compare with the rest of the country?
The GAA can compile all that info if they wanted or a good journalist could put it together quick enough. Instead poor anaylsis like this guy using the number of Games Promotion Officers in a County as a measure!!
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/analyst-claims-dubs-actually-being-underfunded-939277.html
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 26/07/2019 14:28:56
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Replying To Jack_Goff: "You're going to get split whether you like it or not. If you don't want to attend matches anymore be my guest, you can still enjoy the club scene. The rest of us won't mind and can get back to enjoying a more even playing field." Nope not gonna happen , but keep dreaming if you wish.
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 26/07/2019 15:32:23
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Replying To Jack_Goff: "You're going to get split whether you like it or not. If you don't want to attend matches anymore be my guest, you can still enjoy the club scene. The rest of us won't mind and can get back to enjoying a more even playing field." Wishful thinking Jack. It's not going to happen.What are your feelings when Meath play Longford. Meath exceeds their population by a multiple of 5. Does that cause you any discomfort? Thought not.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 26/07/2019 17:06:01
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Most objective posters know that the funding issue has nothing to do with the senior teams success by Jim Gavin & the squad. So take away that fact, or the facts that they have the largest population base in the country & the best organised board & sponsorship in the country, or that they get most of their games in Croke Park. Ignore all those factors as they are down to competence & organisation, the fact is that Dublins funding at games development level is totally inequitable.
So not equating the fact with Dublin success, take it in isolation in relation to the games development funding only, there can be no justification for the inequitable balance in funding & for a President of the Association to defend this fact, is totally unacceptable.
moc.dna (Galway) - Posts: 1212 - 26/07/2019 17:17:09
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Ha ha I feel the use of clearly and fact in these debates are anything but.
Beware going Full Ewan gents.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 26/07/2019 17:53:21
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I just don't agree with that last part.
The GDF just isn't that inequitable.
Dublin also came up with the model and it's now being rolled out to Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, Louth and Belfast.
I just don't see how the current 1.23m of a total budget of 11m being spent on Dublin as all that out of step.
So outside of that Dublin money there's 3.5m spent development personnel, 1.5m spent on county projects.
There's then 2.3m being spent on hurling development.
18m overall spend on Dublin isn't actually that much also.
It's always referenced v say 1.2m as being distributed to the next county. That's not a fair comparison as I've tried to point out a number of times.
It's 18m of somewhere in the region of 120m total spend on development in the same time period.
It's 1/5 of the price of Páirc Ui Chaoimh. It's the going rate of about 4 centres of development. It's money efficiently spent and benefiting 10 of thousands of kids each year.
It's clearly getting more people playing Gaelic games in Dublin.
Imagine if say the FA implemented a games development initiative in London that was so successful and got the numbers playing soccer greatly increased. There would not be calls of it being a disgrace. There'd be no calls to defund it.
It's just because of the nature of the GAA's county system that the top teams are decided by geographic borders that this becomes an issue.
The GAA's remit is to promote the games. I think providing a proper coaching infrastructure in the clearly most populous area is part of that remit.
If you decide to do that, there's a cost associated with it and it just has to be paid.
If you ever budget a project in a business capacity there's ways to save around the edges at times, but to do a project there's a critical amount of money that is required to make it a success. It just has to be paid if the project is worth being done.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4225 - 26/07/2019 18:09:16
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The sad reality for the GAA is that Dublin public does not support the GAA unless the Dubs are in it. More could be done to attract neutrals from Dublin to watch teams from beyond the Pale playing at HQ. This would help the finances and cash flow to other county boards.
maroondiesel (Mayo) - Posts: 1196 - 26/07/2019 18:24:18
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Replying To jimbodub: "1: It's not 18 million spent directly on the senior football team.
2: It's funding invested across the board on both codes and genders - not 18 million spent on football, so the figure spent directly on football coaching alone is a great deal lower.
3: It's games development spent on school children boys and girls how to kick/hit a ball or catch a ball. You can't coach a donkey into being a race horse. Look at the list of current Dublin players many of which come from successful sporting families.
4: Your logic is overly simplistic- it's up there with saying that Dublin has 1.6 million people to pick from, your ignoring glaring holes in your logic.
5: Your post is very narrowly skewed and doesn't take into account the long list of Dub players that had zero interaction with the supposed benefits of this funding and nothing would have been won without these players.
*Ive provided a list of said players on previous posts
6: It doesn't account for men like Pat Gilroy, Mick Deegan, Dessie Farrell, Jason Sherlock, Mickey Whelan, Declan Darcy and Jim Gavin being the outstanding servants that they are and their huge contribution to all this success.
No level of funding to school children has molded those men into the great coaches and managers they proved to be.
Nothing would be won with them" Are you actually being serious. You telling me there is no correlation being no funding and no all Irelands to massive funding and 6 all Irelands???
Really is true that some people cant see facts.
Also there were quite a few people in the current team who would have benefited from the funding. The funding started in 2007 and doubling didn't win there first all ireland till 2011.
Why is it that every person outside dublin can see the benefits of increased funding but the dubs cant? Seriously though it's not Dublin fault they recieved so much but I imagine every fan would like the dubs to at least it helped their cause massively.
kevin03 (Tyrone) - Posts: 276 - 26/07/2019 20:09:13
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Dublins success is partially down to their genetics, people ignore this sort of thing, both physically and mentally, Dublin has the highest amount of high IQ people in Ireland due to Dublin being the location of most "High IQ jobs", having a high IQ is a big advantage in sport as it makes you handle decision making very well.
PattyONeill (Derry) - Posts: 222 - 26/07/2019 20:10:12
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Replying To Whammo86: "I just don't agree with that last part.
The GDF just isn't that inequitable.
Dublin also came up with the model and it's now being rolled out to Meath, Kildare, Wicklow, Louth and Belfast.
I just don't see how the current 1.23m of a total budget of 11m being spent on Dublin as all that out of step.
So outside of that Dublin money there's 3.5m spent development personnel, 1.5m spent on county projects.
There's then 2.3m being spent on hurling development.
18m overall spend on Dublin isn't actually that much also.
It's always referenced v say 1.2m as being distributed to the next county. That's not a fair comparison as I've tried to point out a number of times.
It's 18m of somewhere in the region of 120m total spend on development in the same time period.
It's 1/5 of the price of Páirc Ui Chaoimh. It's the going rate of about 4 centres of development. It's money efficiently spent and benefiting 10 of thousands of kids each year.
It's clearly getting more people playing Gaelic games in Dublin.
Imagine if say the FA implemented a games development initiative in London that was so successful and got the numbers playing soccer greatly increased. There would not be calls of it being a disgrace. There'd be no calls to defund it.
It's just because of the nature of the GAA's county system that the top teams are decided by geographic borders that this becomes an issue.
The GAA's remit is to promote the games. I think providing a proper coaching infrastructure in the clearly most populous area is part of that remit.
If you decide to do that, there's a cost associated with it and it just has to be paid.
If you ever budget a project in a business capacity there's ways to save around the edges at times, but to do a project there's a critical amount of money that is required to make it a success. It just has to be paid if the project is worth being done." You've spoken logically on this topic for months.
Fair dues.
It just doesn't sit comfortably for some posters.
It's a more deep rooted anguish. It's an urban v rural thing which cuts deeper than sport.
It's attaching a widely held feeling of rural discontent in a sporting context that in fact goes well beyond kicking a bit of leather around.
It was/is a very hard time for Ireland and many people are still seeing and living the damage caused.
The fact is Dublin GAA is here to stay. The level of success at senior level football will lessen in the not so distant future but we'll strive to get back to the top.
I'd expect less hysterics and panic when that happens. Remove a small handful of names from the current setup and all be be quickly realized and I genuinely believe you'll see that soon and it will pacify quite a bit of the amateur dramatics and misinformation surrounding this topic.
This will happen, only a matter of time until then let's see who's best at kicking a ball.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 26/07/2019 20:27:34
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Replying To kevin03: "Listen the facts are clear for anyone to see
1996-2006. No funding from croke park. Zero all irelands.
2007-2018. €18 million from croke park. 6 all irelands.
How/why are people still arguing that funding doesn't buy success when the money is the only thing extra Dublin recieved.
Back in 1996 they still had a massive population compared with the rest and they still played in croke park. So the only thing to change is they received massive amounts of investment.
If you disagree please just facts." ????
There has always been funding from Croke Park. For all counties. 2005 was Blue Wave and the GD.
Between 2006 and 2018 how much have the GAA given the counties in total, not just GD? How much did Dublin get in total?
Numbers will be shock to 90% of you.
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 27/07/2019 03:53:49
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Replying To moc.dna: "Most objective posters know that the funding issue has nothing to do with the senior teams success by Jim Gavin & the squad. So take away that fact, or the facts that they have the largest population base in the country & the best organised board & sponsorship in the country, or that they get most of their games in Croke Park. Ignore all those factors as they are down to competence & organisation, the fact is that Dublins funding at games development level is totally inequitable.
So not equating the fact with Dublin success, take it in isolation in relation to the games development funding only, there can be no justification for the inequitable balance in funding & for a President of the Association to defend this fact, is totally unacceptable." I like some of what you say in this post in that you are right that the main issue should be about is what's happening fair in that should the GAA fund training development way more for a child in Dublin than outside Dublin. From what's become public this seems to be the case.
You can't really argue that this is an initiative for kids in deprived areas, south Dublin, the countries most affluent area benefits the same as north Dublin.
From what I can see the GAA would not be able to afford to roll this out nationally so there is always going to be unfairness attached to this.
Even if the central GAA authorities were not putting funding into this and it was all local clubs funding this on their own is the GAA right to let one area of the country develope a club underage model based on a large number of paid coaches which is, to a large degree in contrast with the rest of the country?
I disagree with you saying it does not impact the Dublin senior team. If Dublin club underage players get much better training as youth players the whole way up of course they will end up being better players than they would otherwise have been. A side effect of this is a far better standard of football/ hurling playing pool for Dublin to pick from.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1349 - 27/07/2019 07:52:19
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Replying To PattyONeill: "Dublins success is partially down to their genetics, people ignore this sort of thing, both physically and mentally, Dublin has the highest amount of high IQ people in Ireland due to Dublin being the location of most "High IQ jobs", having a high IQ is a big advantage in sport as it makes you handle decision making very well." Well, as a Dub, I didn't want to say....but yes, we are all clever clogs here in the capital :-).
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 27/07/2019 08:57:45
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Replying To keithlemon: "So we've established that you have more than one profile. Gotcha
While that may be the case for you its not for me so sorry to burst that bubble.
All I asked was that you show where jimbo has badly researched something before and you gave me 'go back a few pages and you'll see'. Lacking on the specifics like the subject matter or how bad his figures or analysis was - pretty much the trend for a lot of posts on this thread.
Ps Jimbo wishes he was as good a poster as me!!!" Ok then. Here's one of your essays.
Scratching their heads wondering where the next golden generation was on the way
Unfortunately for Meath they greatly over achieved with back to back great teams
Meath achieved 4 out of 7 All Ireland's across a short enough period of time under one man. Completely unsustainable given their previous 3 wins across many decades and it spoiled them rotten. They got use to it without really understanding where it had come from and doing very little when times were good to maintain it.
The man that achieved 4 of their 7 left, players got old and that was that.
They went through many managers in a short space of time chasing the good times, thinking it was a management issue. I don't blame them when one manager won 4 but he only did that off the back of two golden crops of players back to back
It was an extraordinary anomaly in Meath GAA and the stars aligned to put Boylan in place at that time with those great players
Such sets of factors are very rare and nothing like that had come before it in Meath
When this was proven to be wrong you were no where to be seen
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 27/07/2019 10:09:30
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Replying To jimbodub: "You've spoken logically on this topic for months.
Fair dues.
It just doesn't sit comfortably for some posters.
It's a more deep rooted anguish. It's an urban v rural thing which cuts deeper than sport.
It's attaching a widely held feeling of rural discontent in a sporting context that in fact goes well beyond kicking a bit of leather around.
It was/is a very hard time for Ireland and many people are still seeing and living the damage caused.
The fact is Dublin GAA is here to stay. The level of success at senior level football will lessen in the not so distant future but we'll strive to get back to the top.
I'd expect less hysterics and panic when that happens. Remove a small handful of names from the current setup and all be be quickly realized and I genuinely believe you'll see that soon and it will pacify quite a bit of the amateur dramatics and misinformation surrounding this topic.
This will happen, only a matter of time until then let's see who's best at kicking a ball." Talking to yourself now is it?
oneoff (UK) - Posts: 1380 - 27/07/2019 10:10:47
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Replying To jimbodub: "You've spoken logically on this topic for months.
Fair dues.
It just doesn't sit comfortably for some posters.
It's a more deep rooted anguish. It's an urban v rural thing which cuts deeper than sport.
It's attaching a widely held feeling of rural discontent in a sporting context that in fact goes well beyond kicking a bit of leather around.
It was/is a very hard time for Ireland and many people are still seeing and living the damage caused.
The fact is Dublin GAA is here to stay. The level of success at senior level football will lessen in the not so distant future but we'll strive to get back to the top.
I'd expect less hysterics and panic when that happens. Remove a small handful of names from the current setup and all be be quickly realized and I genuinely believe you'll see that soon and it will pacify quite a bit of the amateur dramatics and misinformation surrounding this topic.
This will happen, only a matter of time until then let's see who's best at kicking a ball." Sure ye were telling us last week that ye'll Get at least 4 players from this years U20 team so no sign of yer dominance coming to an end any time soon jim.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 27/07/2019 10:18:05
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Oneoff
Stop the nonsense I'm not Whammo. It's ridiculous to even suggest it and is that all you have.. you're the one hiding behind a new user name fella.. pricesless
You are very well named. You are certainly one that is well off the mark.
Listen the Meath post..
No manager had ever won 4 All Ireland's for Meath before Boylan.
Before him they had only won 3 across many decades.. 3.
He won 4 in a much much shorter space of time. Unheard of in their history.
It was an absolute anomaly and has absolutely proven to be. He left. It stopped. It's not coming back anytime soon.
They did brilliantly under one of the greatest managers of all time with two crops of Meath players that in my opinion were some of the greatest Meath players ever.
It proved to be completely unsustainable as of course any elevated anomaly would be.
Tell me again what's wrong about the above?
Now thankfully I'm not a journalist spewing misinformation in the national media out to those pliable and prejudiced enough to gobble up down right skewed and flawed numbers as fact.
So really comparing my post to that of a journalist is a ridiculous comparison but you're obviously just a complete gombeen.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 27/07/2019 10:39:28
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Replying To oneoff: "Ok then. Here's one of your essays.
Scratching their heads wondering where the next golden generation was on the way
Unfortunately for Meath they greatly over achieved with back to back great teams
Meath achieved 4 out of 7 All Ireland's across a short enough period of time under one man. Completely unsustainable given their previous 3 wins across many decades and it spoiled them rotten. They got use to it without really understanding where it had come from and doing very little when times were good to maintain it.
The man that achieved 4 of their 7 left, players got old and that was that.
They went through many managers in a short space of time chasing the good times, thinking it was a management issue. I don't blame them when one manager won 4 but he only did that off the back of two golden crops of players back to back
It was an extraordinary anomaly in Meath GAA and the stars aligned to put Boylan in place at that time with those great players
Such sets of factors are very rare and nothing like that had come before it in Meath
When this was proven to be wrong you were no where to be seen" Keithlemon didn't write that... lol
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 27/07/2019 10:40:49
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