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Let's face it, we know what the public and media appetite for a Tier 2 or 3 championship will be. We have done the experiment in hurling. My view is that it will be a lot easier to market a football match between Munster and Leinster than one between Waterford and Louth - with apologies to these counties for using them as an example.
In any case, why should a player like Brendan Murphy of Carlow never have a chance of winning the real Sam Maguire. So, let me propose a radical model for football only that might work.
1 -The national league is played at the usual time but in a revised format with slightly fewer matches. The top six automatically qualify for the Super 14s. The top six is determined by a combination of league position and performances in the knockout part of the league. The details can be worked out later.
2 - The provincial championships are played straight after the league. The teams who make it to the knockout stages of the League, get byes to the later stages of their provincial championships. The winners of the provincial championships are the top seeds in the Super 14. Doing this will have three effects. Firstly, it preserves the historic provincial championships, secondly, it makes them meaningful as they determine seeding later in the summer, and thirdly, it allows every county a chance to get into the Super 14s and have a chance of winning the Sam Maguire.
3 - If the winners of the provincial championship are one of the automatic qualifiers for the Super 14s, then those in positions 7 or lower in the league rankings are added to the Super 14. At the end of this process, 10 counties have qualified for the Super 14s.
4 - Make April and May the club months.
5 - All the players from the "so called weaker counties" who have not qualified for the Super 14s, are then eligible to play for their province. The provincial councils appoint a manager and selectors who select the panel and team.
6 - The four provinces play a re-invigorated Railway Cup competition prior to the Super 14s so they have competitive match practice. The results of this input into the seeding of the Super 14s.
7 - Play the Super 14s during July, August and the first week or two of September in an appropriate format. The results of this impact position in the league for the next year so there is an incentive to win the dead rubbers. IE, if a team does badly in the super 14s, they could drop to division two in the league.
So here is a short summary of the pros.
- All counties can still, at least theoretically, win the real Sam Maguire
- All the good players who cannot realistically hope to win an All Ireland have a chance via the Provinces.
- They also have a realistic chance of winning an All Star as they will be showcasing their talents during the summer.
- The best teams play each other during the summer.
- No dead rubbers in the summer.
- It preserves the geographical representation traditions of the GAA.
- Four additional teams with a realistic prospect of winning the Sam Maguire.
The downside is that the "so called weaker counties" don't have a summer tournament. My view is that many of these teams only get two matches during the summer in any case so is that a major impact?
The big question then is, will the public in these counties (and the general public) get behind provincial teams? Let us look at Rugby. The annual Leinster - Munster match gets 50,000 to the Aviva. I would not be expecting that many but with the correct marketing I think we can safely expect the crowd to exceed Waterford - Louth.
What do others think.
PS - To be even more radical, New York, Boston and London could be added to a Super 16s at some point. The players would be made up of J1 students and others who did not make it to the summer competition the standard way. But this may take us towards semi-professionalism which is a conversation for another day.
shaneShankill (Dublin) - Posts: 42 - 05/06/2019 12:43:02
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Replying To shaneShankill: "Let's face it, we know what the public and media appetite for a Tier 2 or 3 championship will be. We have done the experiment in hurling. My view is that it will be a lot easier to market a football match between Munster and Leinster than one between Waterford and Louth - with apologies to these counties for using them as an example.
In any case, why should a player like Brendan Murphy of Carlow never have a chance of winning the real Sam Maguire. So, let me propose a radical model for football only that might work.
1 -The national league is played at the usual time but in a revised format with slightly fewer matches. The top six automatically qualify for the Super 14s. The top six is determined by a combination of league position and performances in the knockout part of the league. The details can be worked out later.
2 - The provincial championships are played straight after the league. The teams who make it to the knockout stages of the League, get byes to the later stages of their provincial championships. The winners of the provincial championships are the top seeds in the Super 14. Doing this will have three effects. Firstly, it preserves the historic provincial championships, secondly, it makes them meaningful as they determine seeding later in the summer, and thirdly, it allows every county a chance to get into the Super 14s and have a chance of winning the Sam Maguire.
3 - If the winners of the provincial championship are one of the automatic qualifiers for the Super 14s, then those in positions 7 or lower in the league rankings are added to the Super 14. At the end of this process, 10 counties have qualified for the Super 14s.
4 - Make April and May the club months.
5 - All the players from the "so called weaker counties" who have not qualified for the Super 14s, are then eligible to play for their province. The provincial councils appoint a manager and selectors who select the panel and team.
6 - The four provinces play a re-invigorated Railway Cup competition prior to the Super 14s so they have competitive match practice. The results of this input into the seeding of the Super 14s.
7 - Play the Super 14s during July, August and the first week or two of September in an appropriate format. The results of this impact position in the league for the next year so there is an incentive to win the dead rubbers. IE, if a team does badly in the super 14s, they could drop to division two in the league.
So here is a short summary of the pros.
- All counties can still, at least theoretically, win the real Sam Maguire
- All the good players who cannot realistically hope to win an All Ireland have a chance via the Provinces.
- They also have a realistic chance of winning an All Star as they will be showcasing their talents during the summer.
- The best teams play each other during the summer.
- No dead rubbers in the summer.
- It preserves the geographical representation traditions of the GAA.
- Four additional teams with a realistic prospect of winning the Sam Maguire.
The downside is that the "so called weaker counties" don't have a summer tournament. My view is that many of these teams only get two matches during the summer in any case so is that a major impact?
The big question then is, will the public in these counties (and the general public) get behind provincial teams? Let us look at Rugby. The annual Leinster - Munster match gets 50,000 to the Aviva. I would not be expecting that many but with the correct marketing I think we can safely expect the crowd to exceed Waterford - Louth.
What do others think.
PS - To be even more radical, New York, Boston and London could be added to a Super 16s at some point. The players would be made up of J1 students and others who did not make it to the summer competition the standard way. But this may take us towards semi-professionalism which is a conversation for another day." Nice idea
However, you're missing the point of what makes winning Sam so special... Your own county winning it. The cup coming to your town, the whole town going crazy. The whole county going crazy.
I don't think that's going to happen if Ulster or Leinster win it.
You'll be happy for the player, but there's no sense of community there or wanting to cheer on your province, it's a poor second to your county.
Leinster V Munster in rugby is different in that it's the only choice of team you have at that level (a global level)
If Donegal get knocked out and then Michael Murphy plays the rest of the the champo for Ulster, I wouldn't be as interested.
Only my opinion though.
Al_Maguire (Donegal) - Posts: 244 - 05/06/2019 13:50:11
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The railway cup has spoken, no one, maybe Ulster aside, gives a flying fook about provinces, its as marketable as the all-Ireland long spit championship!
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 05/06/2019 15:35:20
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Replying To Al_Maguire: "Nice idea
However, you're missing the point of what makes winning Sam so special... Your own county winning it. The cup coming to your town, the whole town going crazy. The whole county going crazy.
I don't think that's going to happen if Ulster or Leinster win it.
You'll be happy for the player, but there's no sense of community there or wanting to cheer on your province, it's a poor second to your county.
Leinster V Munster in rugby is different in that it's the only choice of team you have at that level (a global level)
If Donegal get knocked out and then Michael Murphy plays the rest of the the champo for Ulster, I wouldn't be as interested.
Only my opinion though." Thanks. I take your point and I really want to get this kind of feedback.
But I think Donegal is not where this is aimed. Donegal are recent all Ireland winners. I was thinking more of Carlow, Wicklow, Louth, Leitrim, etc.
When the Joe McDonagh, or Christy Ring cups come home to the winning county, are there parades through the streets. I don't know. I am genuinely curious.
Shadesof (Dublin) - Posts: 1 - 05/06/2019 15:36:30
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Nice idea but not one that I see as being feasible mainly due to the fact that I don't think any player who has been knocked out for his county in the provincial championship is going to be remotely interested in lining out for a second chance with his provincial team. The GAA by its very nature is built upon parochial tribalism and representing your club and county. The Railway Cup for example hasn't worked as we've seen with no major interest from players and more so supporters. I'd also mention that aside from a free trip to Oz that the International Rules series hasn't garnered much interest over the last few years either. People and players alike are loyal to their county and their county only. Grand the International Rules can be an enjoyable distraction but for me it's nothing more than that and honestly doesn't cost me a second thought if we lose a game in it. I think a second tier is inevitable and I am definitely looking forward to seeing how it develops.
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 05/06/2019 16:00:19
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Replying To Shadesof: "Thanks. I take your point and I really want to get this kind of feedback.
But I think Donegal is not where this is aimed. Donegal are recent all Ireland winners. I was thinking more of Carlow, Wicklow, Louth, Leitrim, etc.
When the Joe McDonagh, or Christy Ring cups come home to the winning county, are there parades through the streets. I don't know. I am genuinely curious." 2 Usernames?? tut tut ;)
cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5012 - 05/06/2019 16:50:39
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I think what you need to do is give prestige to the Tier 2 and 3 competitions, look at the delight in Carlow and Leitrim with their recent successes in Divison 4. I think we need to combine league and provincial championship and where you finish determines what tier you play in. All teams should get a more even number of games.
Then have a finals weekend, have a festival of football of hurling in Dublin, fan parks various events, bands etc, have the Tier 2 and 3 finals on the Saturday and the Senior and minor finals on the Sunday. If you were in Dublin the Sat before last years All Ireland football final you would hardly had known one of the sport sporting occasions of the year was on the following day.
Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 05/06/2019 17:01:28
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This settles all competition debates.
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icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2550 - 05/06/2019 17:10:54
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Look, it's a well thought out idea and for that I give credit.
I think the big thing here is having the 4 provincial sides essentially becoming counties for the summer and while in theory this would create 4 additonal teams full of talented players, unfortunately I don't think it's workable.
Your first and most obvious problem is buy-in, I can't see many people buying in to the concept and supporting the new teams. Second problem is logistics, if these teams are serious then they must train regularily as a group, but how do they do this? If you have a lad from north Louth and a lad from south Wexford on the same team you have a right geographical problem on your hands.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 05/06/2019 17:17:38
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Good idea definitely worth a look
brisbane (Galway) - Posts: 674 - 05/06/2019 18:14:49
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Replying To realdub: "The railway cup has spoken, no one, maybe Ulster aside, gives a flying fook about provinces, its as marketable as the all-Ireland long spit championship!" It's a pity when there's a team with provincial funding who are the ideal 5th province to revive the Railway Cup.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 05/06/2019 18:39:13
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Replying To Shadesof: "Thanks. I take your point and I really want to get this kind of feedback.
But I think Donegal is not where this is aimed. Donegal are recent all Ireland winners. I was thinking more of Carlow, Wicklow, Louth, Leitrim, etc.
When the Joe McDonagh, or Christy Ring cups come home to the winning county, are there parades through the streets. I don't know. I am genuinely curious." I can only reference Donegal cause that's where I'm from - but I don't think it makes any difference.
Leitrim and Connacht are still two different entities - there's way less of an emotional buy in to get behind. It's not your team, it's hodge podge collection of a made up team that changes every year.
It's not Leitrim winning it.
The rush for tickets for 'Connacht' getting to an All Ireland final would be a trickle.
I might go and cheer on my consolation team that has one or two bucks
In my opinion you'd be better off amalgamating counties like Leitirm and Sligo together.
At least then it's still your number 1 team, not your poor second team.
Al_Maguire (Donegal) - Posts: 244 - 06/06/2019 11:12:44
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Thanks all.
Re people not transferring allegiance from County to Province - I think this is the biggest issue. I would make a couple of comments. 50k people attend Munster Leister in Rugby. I suspect many of them are also GAA supporters. They transfer their allegiance in Rugby. Why not GAA if it is marketed properly.
Re Alternative of merging counties. - Merge 3 counties in Connacht and you more or less have a rest of Connaught team.
Re Logistics of lads from Wexford having to train with Lads from Louth. Fristly I suspect many would be in Dulin anyway. And many country counties have to manage the logistics of half the team in Dublin and half locally in any case.
Re we need to make the Tier 2 and Tier 3 championships great. I agree, but we should probably start by seeing how we can make the Lory Meagher and Christy Ring cups great to see if it is possible.
As someone once said. Be radical or redundant.
shaneShankill (Dublin) - Posts: 42 - 06/06/2019 13:48:07
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Unfortunately, any shake up of the structure will need to incorporate both the league and the vested interests in the provincial councils.
My idea would be along these lines:
1. Run the league as usual in spring and then start the championship in each province on the first week of May.
2. Run the provincials as usual but add a bit of relevance by making the provincial finalists top seeds in each of 8 groups, losing semi finalists would be second seeds and teams cannot play each other again.
3. Because of the inequality of the provinces from there on, the bottom seedings are decided on league placing, which would add a bit more relevance to the league as well.
So, let's just say the provincials go with the favourites the rest of the way through, based on 2019, the seedings for the draw would be:
Pot1 Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Meath, Roscommon, Galway, Cavan, Tyrone
Pot2 Limerick, Clare, Kildare, Laois, Sligo, Mayo, Armagh, Donegal
Pot3 Monaghan, Down, Tipperary, Offaly, Westmeath, Longford, Louth, Fermanagh
Pot4: Wicklow, Wexford, London, Carlow, Waterford, Antrim, Leitrim, Derry
Then play these off on a home/away/neutral venue basis. Use the likes of Breffni Park, Clones, Gaelic Grounds, Semple Stadium, Portlaoise, Tullamore, McHale Park etc - not Croke Park - as neutral venues. Top 2 qualify for a knockout round with home advantage to the table toppers, all games from QF onwards are played in Croker.
I think it works better than basing it off of league position alone. Limerick beat Tipp so deserve a shot at the big time even if they would be in line for heavy losses, there could be a big crowd out to watch them play the likes of Donegal, Mayo or Dublin - teams they'd never meet in league or championship in a normal year.
kingdom_come (Kerry) - Posts: 76 - 06/06/2019 14:39:08
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Replying To shaneShankill: "Thanks all.
Re people not transferring allegiance from County to Province - I think this is the biggest issue. I would make a couple of comments. 50k people attend Munster Leister in Rugby. I suspect many of them are also GAA supporters. They transfer their allegiance in Rugby. Why not GAA if it is marketed properly.
Re Alternative of merging counties. - Merge 3 counties in Connacht and you more or less have a rest of Connaught team.
Re Logistics of lads from Wexford having to train with Lads from Louth. Fristly I suspect many would be in Dulin anyway. And many country counties have to manage the logistics of half the team in Dublin and half locally in any case.
Re we need to make the Tier 2 and Tier 3 championships great. I agree, but we should probably start by seeing how we can make the Lory Meagher and Christy Ring cups great to see if it is possible.
As someone once said. Be radical or redundant." Here are my response to your points:
1. Re transferring allegiances - Because Rugby is a different sport and it's the most local team you can support. If the GAA was played professionally at a Pan European level then yes provincals team is the best way we could compete and yes a fan base would form as they would be competing at a European level. Intercounty football is at a local level
2. When I talked about merging counties I meant (a) permanently doing it so that becomes your local team and (b) keeping it to adjacent counties. Yes Sligo/Leitrim and Roscommon could work as a team called connacht... but only because they are located beside each other and are in the same geographic locality. Antrim and Fermanagh wouldn't work nor would Wexford, Louth and Offaly.... Amalgamating adjacent counties would work better in allowing fans to easilty attend home game and support a sense of place - you keep the local pride element and the team would still be your number 1 one team - not your 'poor second team' as the provincals would be.
However I would say Sligo and Leitrim or any other counties would be loathe to ever amalgamate... in the same way dublin fans don't want their county split in two. Though I do think this could eventually happen to bring more teams to an equal level.
3. That's grand and easy for Leinster teams who are within easy distance of Dublin. Not every county is near Dublin.
4. Yes there is an issue with how Tier 2 and 3 competitions are promoted - however the GAA have always ignored the lower grade hurling counties. They know they would be playing with fire by ignoring the lower grade football structure in my opinion.
As I stated before - your ide was a nice idea...
But you're mistaking why provincial teams work for one sport with how they'd work for another sport.
It would take a considerable effor to market an All Ireland final that featured Rest of Connacht vs Rest of Leinster...
You don't even need to market an all Ireland final between any two counties who make it.
You're telling people to support a team that's not automtically or emotionally theirs.
Al_Maguire (Donegal) - Posts: 244 - 06/06/2019 16:01:53
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going by the last few years Roscommon would be one of the 10 counties to qualify for Super 14's, do you think a Connacht team of Sligo/Leitrim would have much chance?
Rosineri1 (UK) - Posts: 2099 - 06/06/2019 17:11:20
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I think there's a lot of people have a lot of faith in the power of marketing.
If people don't want to watch something, they are not going to watch it.
For any reform it just needs to be player driven. If they want to play something then at least it will be competitive. Then it's got a chance of being meaningful and gaining a following.
People aren't stupid, putting Super in front of something isn't going to make it super.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 06/06/2019 18:21:19
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think there's a lot of people have a lot of faith in the power of marketing.
If people don't want to watch something, they are not going to watch it.
For any reform it just needs to be player driven. If they want to play something then at least it will be competitive. Then it's got a chance of being meaningful and gaining a following.
People aren't stupid, putting Super in front of something isn't going to make it super." It's not just about the players though. It is about getting fans to buy in as well.
Marketing works when there's something for the people to buy into.
The players might opt for something that the fans aren't interested in either.
Al_Maguire (Donegal) - Posts: 244 - 06/06/2019 18:51:29
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If the provincial championships were moved to January, the league can be run as usual. Super 14 in two groups of 7 after the club month would be a decent format for the All-Ireland Championship.
Three home games each. Group winners advancing to All-Ireland semi-finals. 2nd and 3rd in the quarter-finals.
Tier 2: 2 groups of 6
Tier 3: 1 group of 6.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 06/06/2019 21:39:20
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Replying To Al_Maguire: "It's not just about the players though. It is about getting fans to buy in as well.
Marketing works when there's something for the people to buy into.
The players might opt for something that the fans aren't interested in either." There's a much higher chance of success if players care about something and the players of weaker counties have something they can get behind and train for that's worth winning.
I think there has to be good messaging of the intent for the change (hasn't been happening so far by the way).
I'm not saying that marketing will not be a part of it, it comes later. The priority can't be what can we mostly easily market.
The priority has to be what's best for our players and then you can worry about selling it.
You need good games to sell.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4226 - 07/06/2019 05:56:24
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