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If seems crazy to think that the Leinster last place gets relegated but Waterford can go on being hammered. Waterford did not win a game last year and only seem to have gotten worse this year.
Why are Carlow, Laois, Westmeath (All the Joe MacDonagh teams) less worthy of a place in the All Ireland than Waterford?
skirge7 (UK) - Posts: 251 - 02/06/2019 15:31:08
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Replying To skirge7: "If seems crazy to think that the Leinster last place gets relegated but Waterford can go on being hammered. Waterford did not win a game last year and only seem to have gotten worse this year.
Why are Carlow, Laois, Westmeath (All the Joe MacDonagh teams) less worthy of a place in the All Ireland than Waterford?" There are some silly structural problems that are associated with the hurling championship that are in place because the GAA want to retain Provincial championships.
The hurling championship is good because there are teams by and large around the same level playing week in week out.
The competition needs a tweak though.
Either a top division of 10 teams or 2 groups of 6 played after knockout Provincial championships.
The competitions should not be restricted to accommodate 5 from Munster plus 5 others. If Kerry are good enough they should be able to get entry, if the 5th place Munster team aren't good enough they should not get a place.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 02/06/2019 16:12:50
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Replying To Whammo86: "There are some silly structural problems that are associated with the hurling championship that are in place because the GAA want to retain Provincial championships.
The hurling championship is good because there are teams by and large around the same level playing week in week out.
The competition needs a tweak though.
Either a top division of 10 teams or 2 groups of 6 played after knockout Provincial championships.
The competitions should not be restricted to accommodate 5 from Munster plus 5 others. If Kerry are good enough they should be able to get entry, if the 5th place Munster team aren't good enough they should not get a place." Are you really suggesting that Carlow, Antrim etc are better than Waterford........clearly issues in Waterford camp or something not right but they were in all Ireland final in 2017 and national league final this year so wise up
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 02/06/2019 16:19:19
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Replying To PaudieSull1: "Are you really suggesting that Carlow, Antrim etc are better than Waterford........clearly issues in Waterford camp or something not right but they were in all Ireland final in 2017 and national league final this year so wise up" Based on what we've seen this championship I'd definitely say that Carlow is at least on a par with Waterford; the results don't lie.
festinog (Galway) - Posts: 3097 - 02/06/2019 16:36:26
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In the interest of fairness the bottom place in Leinster should play the bottom place in Munster. The lower plays the mcdonagh champions in a promotion/relegation match.
Waterford would stay up but it would be a fairer system.
Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 02/06/2019 16:38:10
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Replying To PaudieSull1: "Are you really suggesting that Carlow, Antrim etc are better than Waterford........clearly issues in Waterford camp or something not right but they were in all Ireland final in 2017 and national league final this year so wise up" I didn't say that. Where did I say that?
Some of you guys get angry putting words into people's mouths that they've never said.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 02/06/2019 17:07:13
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Replying To Jack_Goff: "In the interest of fairness the bottom place in Leinster should play the bottom place in Munster. The lower plays the mcdonagh champions in a promotion/relegation match.
Waterford would stay up but it would be a fairer system." Exactly right.
Promotion and relegation being decided by geography is a big problem.
It'd be possible for Kerry to win the Joe McDonagh and not get promotion because they have to beat Waterford and Carlow would stay up simply because Kerry won rather than say Laois or Westmeath. That's a really dumb system.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 02/06/2019 17:10:36
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Replying To Jack_Goff: "In the interest of fairness the bottom place in Leinster should play the bottom place in Munster. The lower plays the mcdonagh champions in a promotion/relegation match.
Waterford would stay up but it would be a fairer system." so laois could end up in the munster championship?right....
perfect10 (Wexford) - Posts: 3929 - 02/06/2019 17:16:17
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Replying To perfect10: "so laois could end up in the munster championship?right...." That's why the Provincial nature of the competition is a big problem.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 02/06/2019 17:20:37
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Stop the press. I have a solution:
The McDonagh Cup winner should be promoted as the 6th team in their province. One province will have 5 teams and one province will have 6 teams. The 6th team in the province of 6 will be the team that are relegated.
Scenario 1; Laois finish 6th in Leinster (6/6). Waterford finish 5th in Munster (5/5). Westmeath win McDonagh Cup. Laois are relegated and Westmeath are promoted to Leinster Championship.
Scenario 2; Westmeath 6/6. Waterford 5/5. Kerry win McDonagh Cup. Westmeath are relegated and Kerry are promoted to Munster Championship.
Scenario 3; Carlow 5/5. Kerry 6/6. Westmeath win McDonagh Cup. Kerry are relegated and Westmeath are promoted to Leinster Championship.
Points of note:
+ McDonagh would expand to a 6 team round robin championship.
+ Ring Cup would reduce from 8 to a 6 team round robin championship. This will be as a consequence of a provincial championship having one extra team and the McDonagh Cup having one extra team.
Enjoy the hurling championships! :)
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 02/06/2019 17:23:58
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Replying To legendzxix: "Stop the press. I have a solution:
The McDonagh Cup winner should be promoted as the 6th team in their province. One province will have 5 teams and one province will have 6 teams. The 6th team in the province of 6 will be the team that are relegated.
Scenario 1; Laois finish 6th in Leinster (6/6). Waterford finish 5th in Munster (5/5). Westmeath win McDonagh Cup. Laois are relegated and Westmeath are promoted to Leinster Championship.
Scenario 2; Westmeath 6/6. Waterford 5/5. Kerry win McDonagh Cup. Westmeath are relegated and Kerry are promoted to Munster Championship.
Scenario 3; Carlow 5/5. Kerry 6/6. Westmeath win McDonagh Cup. Kerry are relegated and Westmeath are promoted to Leinster Championship.
Points of note:
+ McDonagh would expand to a 6 team round robin championship.
+ Ring Cup would reduce from 8 to a 6 team round robin championship. This will be as a consequence of a provincial championship having one extra team and the McDonagh Cup having one extra team.
Enjoy the hurling championships! :)" Kerry could be better than the 5th best team in Leinster and still be relegated because they are the 6th best Munster team.
To make a proper fair All Ireland championship the Provincial system shouldn't be a part of it.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4240 - 02/06/2019 17:34:18
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If we finish bottom I can live with us being relegated but we still have a match against Wexford and our lads will be giving it everything.
The unfairness is that Kerry don't get automatic promotion if they win the mcdonagh.
That's the flaw. Solution is to put Kerry in leinster if they win, like Antrim.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 02/06/2019 19:31:05
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Simply isn't right that Munster championship is essentially ringfenched and leinster has promotion/relegation
There should be a play off between 5th Munster vs 5th leinster which to be fair Munster team would win 99 times out of 100
bostonredsox (Wexford) - Posts: 4368 - 02/06/2019 19:43:54
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Replying To carlovia: "If we finish bottom I can live with us being relegated but we still have a match against Wexford and our lads will be giving it everything.
The unfairness is that Kerry don't get automatic promotion if they win the mcdonagh.
That's the flaw. Solution is to put Kerry in leinster if they win, like Antrim." I disagree somewhat. If Kerry ever win the McDonagh Cup, we'll get a preliminary quarter-final and will have played in Croke Park. The relegation-promotion playoff will be a second joust against a Munster powerhouse. I
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 02/06/2019 20:12:48
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Replying To Whammo86: "Exactly right.
Promotion and relegation being decided by geography is a big problem.
It'd be possible for Kerry to win the Joe McDonagh and not get promotion because they have to beat Waterford and Carlow would stay up simply because Kerry won rather than say Laois or Westmeath. That's a really dumb system." You've hit the nail on the head there - GAA response - put head in sand !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2615 - 03/06/2019 03:59:53
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The titles of the relevant championships should become irrelevant over time. The reality is that the weakest team will continue to be in Leinster for the foreseeable future. For all Waterfords current problems they are better than the weakest team in Leinster.
Proving that through a playoff with them to see who goes down? I don't have a problem with that as long as the McDonagh Cup winner replaces the relegation team in the championship that they were relegated from even if that means Kerry play in Leinster.
This is a good format. It was always going to be difficult to live up to last season. It needs a couple of tweets, one being the relegation issue as described above and the other the requirement of some teams having to play three weekends in a row against others who only have one in the same period.
In my opinion it is here to stay and that's a good thing for the game.
Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 03/06/2019 10:02:46
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There needs to be a reality check here. The Munster championship is tougher. They have more protection from relegation.
The Leinster championship is not as tough. They have the same number of All-Ireland series places as Munster but have more of a threat of relegation.
The McDonagh Cup teams have a final in Croke Park to earn and home advantage in the preliminary quarter-finals.
Everyone did do well in the deal except for Kerry. I do not think that we in Kerry are too badly off though. If we are knocking on the door over a number of years, a discussion is fair at that time.
If we somehow win the McDonagh this year, a Croke Park final, a home preliminary quarter-final and a battle against Waterford for a Munster championship spot would be some summer of hurling.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 03/06/2019 11:33:48
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Replying To legendzxix: "There needs to be a reality check here. The Munster championship is tougher. They have more protection from relegation.
The Leinster championship is not as tough. They have the same number of All-Ireland series places as Munster but have more of a threat of relegation.
The McDonagh Cup teams have a final in Croke Park to earn and home advantage in the preliminary quarter-finals.
Everyone did do well in the deal except for Kerry. I do not think that we in Kerry are too badly off though. If we are knocking on the door over a number of years, a discussion is fair at that time.
If we somehow win the McDonagh this year, a Croke Park final, a home preliminary quarter-final and a battle against Waterford for a Munster championship spot would be some summer of hurling." Hope it comes to pass because at the moment Kerry winning McDonagh is by far our best hope of avoiding relegation.
Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 03/06/2019 13:57:17
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Simple solution. Give Leinster teams a playoff too
Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 03/06/2019 14:10:28
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Replying To Breezy: "Simple solution. Give Leinster teams a playoff too" That takes away the prize for winning the mcdonagh.
The last 2 years Carlow faced matches 6 days after winning and celebrating the ring and mcdonagh cups.
Very hard to get back on track for another match.
If Carlow finish bottom this year, then so be it.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 03/06/2019 19:44:17
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