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Experimental Rule Changes Proposed For Gaelic Football

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Replying To Skippy2:  "How many average club goalkeepers can kick the ball past the 45 consistently. Add in a stiff wind and they are really in trouble. Can't see that one working. How many handpasses did Meath make for one of the most famous goals of all time against the dubs in 1990. Good handpassing moves can be great to watch."
Good point. Will it be an offence only if the goalie deliberately kicks short, or tries his best and fails due to kicking into a gale?! I remember club games in the 1970s and '80s where, if team A had a brilliant midfield, inevitably, every time they faced a team with a weak midfield, unless a miracle happened, team A was always going to win as they cleaned up at midfield and the other team's forwards got no supply. The losing team tended to keep lamping it down the middle, even though they knew they were being cleaned out. Great fun if your team was the one with the better midfielder(s), but it'd be an odd thing nowadays if the team with the weaker midfield had to persist artificially with a hopeless kick-out strategy, when they know well that, but for these new rules, there's ways to bypass a midfield advantage. So you had these games where team A had a brilliant midfield and team B had far better forwards, but team A would still win. Seems odd to impose a kick-out policy designed to favour midfielders over forwards? Incidentally, I like John Hayes' idea of a 20m arc and a 45m arc, at both ends of the pitch, where a score from outside the 45m arc was rewarded with two points and a goal rewarded with four points; and Brolly's exclusion zone would be good crack as well.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 489 - 04/10/2018 22:26:51    2145190

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Brolly's exclusion zone, if left empty at the discretion of the attacking team only, makes no sense defensively.

The fix - Allow two defenders optionally to accompany the goalkeeper (at any time) - penalise the defence only for any excess headcount, starting with 3rd defender or above.
That works better.

So - Implement this modified Brolly Zone and the Sin Bin (1 of the 5 GAA proposals only) and let the game take off.
No need for changes regarding - handpass, sideline kicks, the mark or 6-2-6.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 05/10/2018 00:01:25    2145207

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Replying To Mobot:  "100% again. The 6 defenders could well end up playing Zonal defense as well dropping back and letting their men make runs away from goal towards the half way line to let the retreating forwards on their team pick them up as they sprint back. People have to understand that coaching teams will automatically think defense first in these scenarios unless they're losing towards the end and then might decide to take some risks.

If one player catches a ball clean from a kick out you're going to see a lot of slowing down the play from his marker to give time for his team to retreat. Most kick outs should be won by the team taking the kick out as they will control the run and in a lot of cases you might see one of the defending midfielders dropping back as the ball is in the air so their defense isn't left exposed and will have a sweeper in place."
Your far from convincing me that this rule would have a hugely positive impact. The would be a huge amount of extra space at the kick out time and if the defenders dropped back, how far would they drop back, to their 25m line and leave the attacking team have an easy score ?. In modern times with the kicking tee a goalie can usually kick the ball a long way into the midfield 'zone'. There is a serious amount of space between the both 45m lines, One midfielder drops back ?, big difference to many teams today when some teams leave all but 2 men back. Your saying teams would get their forwards to run back from kickouts, if a midfielder caught the ball and decided to move it quick there would not be time for them to get back. (In reality most kicks will be caught by men making runs into space in the area between the 2 45's, it will be hard for their marker to slow them down). I don't have stats but there on average must be about 40 kickouts in every match, get teams setting up in a positive way for each and this will dictate how the games are played. The main downside I see would be this favours the attacking team too much but from what's on offer today I think it would be defiantly worth it.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 490 - 05/10/2018 07:58:19    2145218

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Replying To omahant:  "Brolly's exclusion zone, if left empty at the discretion of the attacking team only, makes no sense defensively.

The fix - Allow two defenders optionally to accompany the goalkeeper (at any time) - penalise the defence only for any excess headcount, starting with 3rd defender or above.
That works better.

So - Implement this modified Brolly Zone and the Sin Bin (1 of the 5 GAA proposals only) and let the game take off.
No need for changes regarding - handpass, sideline kicks, the mark or 6-2-6."
The Brolly zone is a really drastic change.

It's a completely different game we're playing then.

Simpler, impactful but less drastic changes would be much better.

The no passing back behind a line once you've moved forward would be a decent rule.

The problem with the game is that there's not enough engagement of players, the pitch is too large to allow a stable press. You reduce the effective playing area I think teams can start to press effectively and will do so.

So between the 45s a team cannot play the ball back behind the previous line.

The keep ball can't be played, the defensive team will want to press to force the attacking team forward.

We get the ball being challenged for which is where the game needs improvement.

No offensive mark. Instead, having teams press should open up space behind.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 05/10/2018 11:13:41    2145252

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Have to be careful, with changes. First when is this golden era we dream back at is it the 70s or 80s, well looking back at matches there was some muck played then at times too. Looking back in the 70s/80s in our county's final scores were ranging from about 7 to 11scores per team. Last 10 years you would be expecting between 16scores for winners and above 10 for losers. So is a lot more scoring than 30/40 years. The game has evolved and will, it is getting faster, some one these ideas will slow down game which I think will help negative teams

madbull (Westmeath) - Posts: 191 - 05/10/2018 19:21:40    2145303

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Replying To Whammo86:  "The Brolly zone is a really drastic change.

It's a completely different game we're playing then.

Simpler, impactful but less drastic changes would be much better.

The no passing back behind a line once you've moved forward would be a decent rule.

The problem with the game is that there's not enough engagement of players, the pitch is too large to allow a stable press. You reduce the effective playing area I think teams can start to press effectively and will do so.

So between the 45s a team cannot play the ball back behind the previous line.

The keep ball can't be played, the defensive team will want to press to force the attacking team forward.

We get the ball being challenged for which is where the game needs improvement.

No offensive mark. Instead, having teams press should open up space behind."
"The Brolly zone is a really drastic change. It's a completely different game we're playing then.", I would say something like the Brollys zone is the response to the fact that the game in recent years has drastically changed and mutated into a different game. I think the zonal rule, if brought in may move Gaelic football back closer to its roots. Gaelic football was never meant to be played as a possession sport as this makes it much less exciting to play and watch. The best thing about football was the helter skelter way it was traditionally played. Interesting interview with Ciaran Byrne, a player from Louth on being back playing with his club after playing Aussie rules for a few years and how in that time Gaelic football has drastically changed for the worse due to the way its now played. Link https://www.rte.ie/amp/1000977/

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 490 - 05/10/2018 20:21:55    2145312

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Whether we want a different game or not - it changes itself over the decades - compare gaelic football as played in the 50s, 70s and now - goes for rugby union too - with lots of 70s clogged rucks and ball release open play today. Clogging is the issue in many team sports - it's my major Aussie Rules complaint - the referee/umpire 'balls up' too often - we might throw up instead !

Brolly goes to heart of clogging issue - but I agree it's too drastic - he goes from a 12-team blanket defence to possibly (if the attackers want it) none.
I say make it '2 + GKr' minimum - opens up enough space for flowing play - which would widen Dubs dominance (separate issue). The rules otherwise are unadjusted - we are just enforcing that you can't park the bus.

I like the no retreat behind the opponent 65 - but with blanket in effect - retreat will be replaced with strangulation - no place to move - please don't make the pitch smaller - maybe go with 13-a-side.

Whatever the solution - start with desired product and work backwards to find the path to it (even if you want the game not to change too much).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 05/10/2018 22:17:37    2145323

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Replying To omahant:  "Whether we want a different game or not - it changes itself over the decades - compare gaelic football as played in the 50s, 70s and now - goes for rugby union too - with lots of 70s clogged rucks and ball release open play today. Clogging is the issue in many team sports - it's my major Aussie Rules complaint - the referee/umpire 'balls up' too often - we might throw up instead !

Brolly goes to heart of clogging issue - but I agree it's too drastic - he goes from a 12-team blanket defence to possibly (if the attackers want it) none.
I say make it '2 + GKr' minimum - opens up enough space for flowing play - which would widen Dubs dominance (separate issue). The rules otherwise are unadjusted - we are just enforcing that you can't park the bus.

I like the no retreat behind the opponent 65 - but with blanket in effect - retreat will be replaced with strangulation - no place to move - please don't make the pitch smaller - maybe go with 13-a-side.

Whatever the solution - start with desired product and work backwards to find the path to it (even if you want the game not to change too much)."
I don't agree that the required product and work backwards approach is the best.

You take that approach and you never see what you could've gotten instead.

The game is in need of change. I am a strong proponent of minimum change, maximal impact.

As I've said before the dismissal of zonal marking as a viable strategy is irritating.

Reducing the number of players to 13 a side is completely idiotic. In that game it's even easier to keep possession of the ball and run down the clock.

The problem isn't that the pitch is too small, it's that only a small part of the pitch is valuable (the scoring zone), regaining possession outside of this zone is difficult (you can get played around) and not really worth it.

The improvement to the game needs to make it easier to win possession in the middle third and encourage teams to do so.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 06/10/2018 08:58:05    2145333

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't agree that the required product and work backwards approach is the best.

You take that approach and you never see what you could've gotten instead.

The game is in need of change. I am a strong proponent of minimum change, maximal impact.

As I've said before the dismissal of zonal marking as a viable strategy is irritating.

Reducing the number of players to 13 a side is completely idiotic. In that game it's even easier to keep possession of the ball and run down the clock.

The problem isn't that the pitch is too small, it's that only a small part of the pitch is valuable (the scoring zone), regaining possession outside of this zone is difficult (you can get played around) and not really worth it.

The improvement to the game needs to make it easier to win possession in the middle third and encourage teams to do so."
It is not that people are dismissing a blanket defense as not being viable, with the fitness of modern players and the fact that the rules have not evolved to follow this it now seems it is the only viable strategy. It is just that the blanket defense requires little skill (or thought) to execute, is very boring to play for defender's or attackers and ruins the spectacle to watch. I remember talking to an inter county footballer who said he did not watch Gaelic football anymore because it no longer was good to watch (he did not bother make himself available for a second year for his county as he said he found no enjoyment in it the year he played).

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 490 - 06/10/2018 10:45:39    2145336

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "It is not that people are dismissing a blanket defense as not being viable, with the fitness of modern players and the fact that the rules have not evolved to follow this it now seems it is the only viable strategy. It is just that the blanket defense requires little skill (or thought) to execute, is very boring to play for defender's or attackers and ruins the spectacle to watch. I remember talking to an inter county footballer who said he did not watch Gaelic football anymore because it no longer was good to watch (he did not bother make himself available for a second year for his county as he said he found no enjoyment in it the year he played)."
I don't like the 'blanket' defence but it requires a very high degree of skill, spacial awareness and mental alertness to carry it out effectively.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1400 - 06/10/2018 12:37:43    2145352

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Replying To neverright:  "I don't like the 'blanket' defence but it requires a very high degree of skill, spacial awareness and mental alertness to carry it out effectively."
I took a couple of years break from playing. Went back last year. Went into playing in a defense playing a zonal marking system.

It was very enjoyable to play. A lot more marginal decisions to make.

Attacks have to be more coordinated, it's way more team oriented as a game now. Attacks were focused, less pop it to a star player and let him do the rest. You'd to work to get him in the game.

In my eyes from a player perspective this was much more enjoyable to play and train.

We'd a fair share of conditioning work but also a good amount of individual skills ball work, you need to be sharper in tight spaces and when properly pressed. The team oriented defensive work was interesting.

From a spectator point of view there's a lot of poor games and a hell of a lot wrong with the game right now.

I just don't like the ideas a lot are coming up with. They are very radical.

Not everything in the game is bad right now.

The Mayo Dublin games of 2016 and 2017 demonstrate that. 2002-2013 were very good years for football and there was a blanket defense.

2011 and 2014 Donegal v Dublin games were hugely negative for the game. 2011 showed teams just how negative they can be. 2014 showed that a top team playing naively will lose against a well drilled side.

The consensus is the game needs to be reset to some sort of 90s point in the game. I think that would be a shame.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 06/10/2018 14:13:21    2145361

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Replying To neverright:  "I don't like the 'blanket' defence but it requires a very high degree of skill, spacial awareness and mental alertness to carry it out effectively."
It requires fitness and discipline to carry it out effectively. It required more thought being a full back or centre back the way football used to be played before the blanket.

bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 490 - 06/10/2018 14:23:50    2145362

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I took a couple of years break from playing. Went back last year. Went into playing in a defense playing a zonal marking system.

It was very enjoyable to play. A lot more marginal decisions to make.

Attacks have to be more coordinated, it's way more team oriented as a game now. Attacks were focused, less pop it to a star player and let him do the rest. You'd to work to get him in the game.

In my eyes from a player perspective this was much more enjoyable to play and train.

We'd a fair share of conditioning work but also a good amount of individual skills ball work, you need to be sharper in tight spaces and when properly pressed. The team oriented defensive work was interesting.

From a spectator point of view there's a lot of poor games and a hell of a lot wrong with the game right now.

I just don't like the ideas a lot are coming up with. They are very radical.

Not everything in the game is bad right now.

The Mayo Dublin games of 2016 and 2017 demonstrate that. 2002-2013 were very good years for football and there was a blanket defense.

2011 and 2014 Donegal v Dublin games were hugely negative for the game. 2011 showed teams just how negative they can be. 2014 showed that a top team playing naively will lose against a well drilled side.

The consensus is the game needs to be reset to some sort of 90s point in the game. I think that would be a shame."
2014 Donegal 3-14 and Dublin 0-17.Sounds very negative.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 469 - 06/10/2018 14:39:12    2145363

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I took a couple of years break from playing. Went back last year. Went into playing in a defense playing a zonal marking system.

It was very enjoyable to play. A lot more marginal decisions to make.

Attacks have to be more coordinated, it's way more team oriented as a game now. Attacks were focused, less pop it to a star player and let him do the rest. You'd to work to get him in the game.

In my eyes from a player perspective this was much more enjoyable to play and train.

We'd a fair share of conditioning work but also a good amount of individual skills ball work, you need to be sharper in tight spaces and when properly pressed. The team oriented defensive work was interesting.

From a spectator point of view there's a lot of poor games and a hell of a lot wrong with the game right now.

I just don't like the ideas a lot are coming up with. They are very radical.

Not everything in the game is bad right now.

The Mayo Dublin games of 2016 and 2017 demonstrate that. 2002-2013 were very good years for football and there was a blanket defense.

2011 and 2014 Donegal v Dublin games were hugely negative for the game. 2011 showed teams just how negative they can be. 2014 showed that a top team playing naively will lose against a well drilled side.

The consensus is the game needs to be reset to some sort of 90s point in the game. I think that would be a shame."
2014 Donegal 3-14 and Dublin 0-17.Sounds very negative.

gunman (Donegal) - Posts: 469 - 06/10/2018 14:39:31    2145364

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Replying To gunman:  "2014 Donegal 3-14 and Dublin 0-17.Sounds very negative."
Read the post again.

I didn't say the game itself was negative.

I said it's impact on the game of Gaelic football was negative.

It showed that no team no matter how great many of them were as individuals, they would likely be beaten by a strong well organised team.

It was a turning point for this Dublin team. Taught them the necessity for game management and we now see this cat and mouse game state where Dublin retain possession against a blanket, which for the most part is happy to sit in even when behind.

We need to get teams engaging one another, that's where the thrill of sport lies and where it's missing now.

We should not be forcing out zonal defending though.

Roscommon v Tyrone was one of the worst games I saw this year. Tyrone walked through them, Roscommon were way too open. Great attacking can only occur if there's sufficient defensive resistance.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 06/10/2018 15:38:57    2145373

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Replying To bdbuddah:  "It requires fitness and discipline to carry it out effectively. It required more thought being a full back or centre back the way football used to be played before the blanket."
The full back knew what was going to happen - a 'Hail Mary' of a ball dropping into the goalmouth. It required thought from the full-back (or keeper) but mainly to do with hitting the full-forward without being caught. Meath had some fine full-backs in those days.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1400 - 06/10/2018 23:04:52    2145395

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Let's see how it goes. I love Gaelic football anyway, in every era, regardless of rules. The only thing I'd like to see is a bit more refereeing tolerance for a shoulder, something that seems increasingly to have been coached out of the game, presumably for fear of being carded. I'd prefer seeing a good shoulder to trash-talking, sneaky holding of a forward when the ball comes in and all that 'getting to know you' handbags b/s when e.g., a sub is introduced.

essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 489 - 07/10/2018 01:38:24    2145400

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Replying To gunman:  "2014 Donegal 3-14 and Dublin 0-17.Sounds very negative."
Well if you read me post correctly you'll see I didn't say the game itself was negative.

The affect it had on football was the negative.

It showed Dublin and every other team that no matter how great your individuals are they can be beaten if they play naively against a good well organised team.

From that point on game management became of major importance. That's something that's real hurt the game as a spectacle.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 2167 - 07/10/2018 10:09:40    2145409

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I took a couple of years break from playing. Went back last year. Went into playing in a defense playing a zonal marking system.

It was very enjoyable to play. A lot more marginal decisions to make.

Attacks have to be more coordinated, it's way more team oriented as a game now. Attacks were focused, less pop it to a star player and let him do the rest. You'd to work to get him in the game.

In my eyes from a player perspective this was much more enjoyable to play and train.

We'd a fair share of conditioning work but also a good amount of individual skills ball work, you need to be sharper in tight spaces and when properly pressed. The team oriented defensive work was interesting.

From a spectator point of view there's a lot of poor games and a hell of a lot wrong with the game right now.

I just don't like the ideas a lot are coming up with. They are very radical.

Not everything in the game is bad right now.

The Mayo Dublin games of 2016 and 2017 demonstrate that. 2002-2013 were very good years for football and there was a blanket defense.

2011 and 2014 Donegal v Dublin games were hugely negative for the game. 2011 showed teams just how negative they can be. 2014 showed that a top team playing naively will lose against a well drilled side.

The consensus is the game needs to be reset to some sort of 90s point in the game. I think that would be a shame."
I think you are hitting on the real issue, the competition at the top was much greater in the last decade and earlier parts of this decade, there were some great rivalries, cork Vs Kerry Armagh Vs tyrone, Dublin Vs everyone, big rivalries put arses on seats, Dublin Vs mayo was the only one to last and then this year that didn't happen so we were left with nothing. The scary thing about this championship is that Dublin didn't even seem to break a sweat winning it, so it looks like we will lack that competition for another while, but it will come to an end it always does. I just hope the dont completely change the game we love out of some misplaced idea that the game is broken.

Barrowsider (Carlow) - Posts: 1177 - 07/10/2018 11:18:29    2145413

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The game is broken.
I'd go with an Altered Brolly Zone - but to accomodate policing at the Junior Club league games, the zone boundary needs to be elevarlted off the grass a little for greater visibility - use a 'rope' similar to a cricket boundary - but in flurescent pink/yellow.
I'll get no responses to this.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 1403 - 07/10/2018 15:28:37    2145425

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