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Replying To TheUsername: "Is there an argument though that maybe Dublin were underfunded historically and only now that they are properly funded they are reaching there true potential.
If you look at the figures i posted above based on population to funding ratio, they arent even the most well funded county, admittedly its only one method of looking at the figures and like the registered player method its very narrow. But they are posting a number of 96 cent per head, with other counties coming in higher.
Maybe its a case that Dublin were underfunded for the huge population they had for years and what we are seeing now is just a true reflection of the potential in the county. Perhaps it was always a case that Dublin were destined to be strong or even the strongest county in Gaelic games if properly funded.
Personally i dont think a split will ever happen, for a number of reasons but mostly it would create huge damage within the game itself holistically and perhaps even threaten it as we know it.
I think the GAA would overfund other counties before it even became a thought. But i dont think it will get that far, there will be years of regression for Dublin ahead and it wont even be a notion soon enough." I wouldn't say Dublin were underfunded in the past, more so that they were funded in line with what they should have been based all things being equal. The current growth of the games there has been supported by the GAA as an organisation. Comparing funding from years ago is not very relevant to the modern day. The GAA is now commercially bringing in huge cash.
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1349 - 11/09/2018 22:30:19
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It's an amateur sport, the only thing that keeps it alive is tribalism, county borders, village/town perimeters, if you lose that, you've lost your sport.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8592 - 11/09/2018 22:35:29
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Replying To bdbuddah: "I wouldn't say Dublin were underfunded in the past, more so that they were funded in line with what they should have been based all things being equal. The current growth of the games there has been supported by the GAA as an organisation. Comparing funding from years ago is not very relevant to the modern day. The GAA is now commercially bringing in huge cash." When you actually look at there is a case they were, 200k to cater for a population of 1.3million. Even the make up of Dublin teams was limited encompassing a few Northside clubs were the vast majority of the players came from. Maybe real fair funding has unlocked Dublin's true potential, look at the team now there is county wide, North/South/West Dublin representation.
In actual fact on your supporting fact, you could look at another way. Dublin GDF is made up of two sources. 200k from GAA central funds. The rest is provided by the Irish Sports Council approx 1 million. So essentially Dublin are taking about the same as other S8 counties from central funds (less if you add provincal grants).
Now people talk of redistrubuting funds to other counties, the vast majority don't come from the GAA central funds. Or perhaps look at this way if Dublin didn't receive an Irish Sports Council grant this year, then the GAA have to fund Dublin. Essentially what that means is every other county would be hit and you would see a reduction in funding for all counties.
People complain about Dublin's funding but Dublins sports council grant actually enables the GAA, to fund other counties without having to stress about Dublin.
Make no mistake about every other county is as dependent on the Irish Sports Council grant given to Dublin as Dublin is, the knock on effect would be significant, every other counties funding as well as Dublin is based on that particular house of cards.
So to answer you question the GAA haven't supported Dublin, the Irish Sports Council has and that has enabled the GAA to support every other county, it's a dependency cycle every county in the country better hope doesn't end.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 11/09/2018 22:55:35
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Replying To realdub: "It's an amateur sport, the only thing that keeps it alive is tribalism, county borders, village/town perimeters, if you lose that, you've lost your sport." It is a help but that could also be said of other sports in different ways. It survives and prospers
because it is embedded in communities. Also it has two very good products in Hurling and Football.
fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 598 - 11/09/2018 23:49:37
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Replying To TheUsername: "When you actually look at there is a case they were, 200k to cater for a population of 1.3million. Even the make up of Dublin teams was limited encompassing a few Northside clubs were the vast majority of the players came from. Maybe real fair funding has unlocked Dublin's true potential, look at the team now there is county wide, North/South/West Dublin representation.
In actual fact on your supporting fact, you could look at another way. Dublin GDF is made up of two sources. 200k from GAA central funds. The rest is provided by the Irish Sports Council approx 1 million. So essentially Dublin are taking about the same as other S8 counties from central funds (less if you add provincal grants).
Now people talk of redistrubuting funds to other counties, the vast majority don't come from the GAA central funds. Or perhaps look at this way if Dublin didn't receive an Irish Sports Council grant this year, then the GAA have to fund Dublin. Essentially what that means is every other county would be hit and you would see a reduction in funding for all counties.
People complain about Dublin's funding but Dublins sports council grant actually enables the GAA, to fund other counties without having to stress about Dublin.
Make no mistake about every other county is as dependent on the Irish Sports Council grant given to Dublin as Dublin is, the knock on effect would be significant, every other counties funding as well as Dublin is based on that particular house of cards.
So to answer you question the GAA haven't supported Dublin, the Irish Sports Council has and that has enabled the GAA to support every other county, it's a dependency cycle every county in the country better hope doesn't end." So does that mean that to make the equation fair every county should get a proportionate sports council grant and GAA central fund on per capita basis to Dublin? Then that would put the whole argument to bed.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 12/09/2018 00:52:35
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Replying To TheUsername: "When you actually look at there is a case they were, 200k to cater for a population of 1.3million. Even the make up of Dublin teams was limited encompassing a few Northside clubs were the vast majority of the players came from. Maybe real fair funding has unlocked Dublin's true potential, look at the team now there is county wide, North/South/West Dublin representation.
In actual fact on your supporting fact, you could look at another way. Dublin GDF is made up of two sources. 200k from GAA central funds. The rest is provided by the Irish Sports Council approx 1 million. So essentially Dublin are taking about the same as other S8 counties from central funds (less if you add provincal grants).
Now people talk of redistrubuting funds to other counties, the vast majority don't come from the GAA central funds. Or perhaps look at this way if Dublin didn't receive an Irish Sports Council grant this year, then the GAA have to fund Dublin. Essentially what that means is every other county would be hit and you would see a reduction in funding for all counties.
People complain about Dublin's funding but Dublins sports council grant actually enables the GAA, to fund other counties without having to stress about Dublin.
Make no mistake about every other county is as dependent on the Irish Sports Council grant given to Dublin as Dublin is, the knock on effect would be significant, every other counties funding as well as Dublin is based on that particular house of cards.
So to answer you question the GAA haven't supported Dublin, the Irish Sports Council has and that has enabled the GAA to support every other county, it's a dependency cycle every county in the country better hope doesn't end." Following on from the early years the growth of the GAA was largely organic, for example generation after generation played for their local club and many years ago when my local GAA club grounds were developed many locals such as block layers and people who had machinery gave up their time in the evenings to carry out the works while others with no specific construction skills went up to help out. The underage teams were organised/ managed by locals in their spare time (and still are) with no input from full time coaches. The growth in Dublin has been much more targeted and strategic with the GAA aiming to spread the games into non tradational areas. Again I think the GAA are right to do this as it is good that the GAA is strong in the capital city and county with by far the biggest population. But in the future the GAA could end up being as popular in Dublin as it is nationwide. This would mean you could end up with maybe 25% of Gaelic football players nationwide from Dublin. The competition structures when they were set up at the time over 130 years ago would probably never have been based around county boundaries had Dublin had 25% of players. Local government was reformed about 20 years to divide Dublin into separate counties partly to reflect the fact that County Dublin had grown to represent a greater share of the countries population. Sometimes things have to change to be in line with new realities. Are you against the possibility of ever splitting Dublin or just think at the moment it should not be considered ?
bdbuddah (Meath) - Posts: 1349 - 12/09/2018 08:29:49
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Splitting Dublin into 2 is of no benefit to the rest of the country. It may benefit players in Dublin by giving them a greater chance to play inter county.
A lot of rubbish written about Dublin lately. The team of the last 4/5 years are a joy to watch and a credit to their county and families.
However Dublin did get funding way above and beyond what other counties got on a per capita basis. To their credit they spent it very well developing coaching structures etc.
The larger counties will always have an advantage on a pure numbers basis. Assuming that is not going to change anytime soon how can the gap be bridged to make the championship more competitive?
*Firstly funding should be leveled on a per player basis straight away (no excuses here)
*County boards should be held accountable for how they spend it. If County boards are seen to waste money funding should be pulled. I would suggest the priorities should be in the order below.
*Coaching structures are crucial (this means down to club level not just development squads)
*Marketing
*Facilities
*County team expenses
Coaching structures may take time to pay dividends but it will have a longer term effect.
There will still be a gap to the big counties and maybe a granny rule could be brought in to allow players to play for different counties. I would restrict this though and not allow players to go back and forth between teams. Also it may be seen by some counties as a short cut instead of coaching structures.
Also regarding coaching, Croke Park must have a blue print on the optimal way to set up a county. They should insist that County Boards follow closely if they want to access the funding. It needs to be done right.
Fair play to the Dubs. Of course money played its part but they used it wisely.
Mayonman (Galway) - Posts: 1829 - 12/09/2018 09:39:39
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Replying To kildare73: "So does that mean that to make the equation fair every county should get a proportionate sports council grant and GAA central fund on per capita basis to Dublin? Then that would put the whole argument to bed." It depends how you look at it really, its unlikely the GAA can afford to fund Dublin on a per captia basis i.e. the figures that i posted. Ultimately if it had to everyone is a looser.
The GAA is able to fund every other county per captia excluding Dublin. You saw the ratio to population for funding i posted.
Im not sure the ISC grants are exclusive to Dublin, for example the sports campus in Tralee received 7mill from them last year that is 7 years of Dublin funding in one year, while i believe the GAA receive another 2mill outside Dublin grant.
But i take your point i thnik large population centers like Galway and Cork should be looked at the ISC. I think they are marginilised by funding per population.
Down and Antrim as well but we know that doesnt fall under the same jurisdiction.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/09/2018 10:31:19
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Replying To bdbuddah: "Following on from the early years the growth of the GAA was largely organic, for example generation after generation played for their local club and many years ago when my local GAA club grounds were developed many locals such as block layers and people who had machinery gave up their time in the evenings to carry out the works while others with no specific construction skills went up to help out. The underage teams were organised/ managed by locals in their spare time (and still are) with no input from full time coaches. The growth in Dublin has been much more targeted and strategic with the GAA aiming to spread the games into non tradational areas. Again I think the GAA are right to do this as it is good that the GAA is strong in the capital city and county with by far the biggest population. But in the future the GAA could end up being as popular in Dublin as it is nationwide. This would mean you could end up with maybe 25% of Gaelic football players nationwide from Dublin. The competition structures when they were set up at the time over 130 years ago would probably never have been based around county boundaries had Dublin had 25% of players. Local government was reformed about 20 years to divide Dublin into separate counties partly to reflect the fact that County Dublin had grown to represent a greater share of the countries population. Sometimes things have to change to be in line with new realities. Are you against the possibility of ever splitting Dublin or just think at the moment it should not be considered ?" Oh i would be wholly against it to be perfectly honest for both emotional and logical reasons and i actually dont think it will ever happen to be honest.
Firstly i mean this no self respecting Dub would go anywhere near a split Dublin team, essentially Gaeilc games would be finished in Dublin, i dont care how many generations they would be existed Gaelic games would be finished in Dublin. I think ultimately you would get country lads playing in Dublin club teams playing in these teams. I think in gerneral there would be boycott and massive protest. I think it could prompt a bit of breakaway too, similar to what the PL did with the FA in soccer in England. But that is subjective.
Logically i dont see a great will in the GAA to do it, look whatever about funding, Dublin are a golden goose more so in these years of success, they put far more into the GAA then take out, sponsors, corporate boxes, premium level, advertising etc Dublin is the GAA biggest brand. I dont think they could afford to kill the golden goose.
Else wise, Dublin have poor numbers of registered players 39k, people talk of a huge population of 1.345 but only a small percentage play the game and when take into account the woman's game, hurling etc the difference in population isnt as huge as quoting overall population. Certainly the playing numbers arent there for a split.
My own opinion, id Dublin hit registered playing number sof 70k-100k then the funding seriously need to be looked at as it would be mission achieved in Dublin. I think the GAA would look at over funding every other county and under funding Dublin and every other reconcilable option before splitting Dublin, but i expect before it ever gets that far Dublin will regress. So i think the whole thing is just a reaction to an exceptional thing and not a piece of it is actually artificial.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/09/2018 10:48:09
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Replying To TheUsername: "It depends how you look at it really, its unlikely the GAA can afford to fund Dublin on a per captia basis i.e. the figures that i posted. Ultimately if it had to everyone is a looser.
The GAA is able to fund every other county per captia excluding Dublin. You saw the ratio to population for funding i posted.
Im not sure the ISC grants are exclusive to Dublin, for example the sports campus in Tralee received 7mill from them last year that is 7 years of Dublin funding in one year, while i believe the GAA receive another 2mill outside Dublin grant.
But i take your point i thnik large population centers like Galway and Cork should be looked at the ISC. I think they are marginilised by funding per population.
Down and Antrim as well but we know that doesnt fall under the same jurisdiction." As I have said before on here, i can't see why the GAA and ISC grants can't be fully explained to the general GAA public. For instance, Croke Park knows there is a huge debate out there over Dublin's funding. It would be so easy, and clear everything up, if the methodology of how funding needs and allocations were calculated were published. Then nobody could complain and the mystery would be no more. Nobody seems to know for sure how funding is divided, everyone throws up figures that back up their own agenda but there is only one set of criteria that matters and that's the Gaa's own criteria but nobody can say for sure what that is. Maybe they revel in this constant arguing and debating but they owe it to their paying public to give some clarification. ISC grants the same, who gets them, how much, what's the criteria and what exactly are they supposed to be allocated to do? A little bit of clarity would be very helpful to give a clearer picture of what goes on in the world of GAA finance.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 12/09/2018 11:56:27
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Replying To kildare73: "As I have said before on here, i can't see why the GAA and ISC grants can't be fully explained to the general GAA public. For instance, Croke Park knows there is a huge debate out there over Dublin's funding. It would be so easy, and clear everything up, if the methodology of how funding needs and allocations were calculated were published. Then nobody could complain and the mystery would be no more. Nobody seems to know for sure how funding is divided, everyone throws up figures that back up their own agenda but there is only one set of criteria that matters and that's the Gaa's own criteria but nobody can say for sure what that is. Maybe they revel in this constant arguing and debating but they owe it to their paying public to give some clarification. ISC grants the same, who gets them, how much, what's the criteria and what exactly are they supposed to be allocated to do? A little bit of clarity would be very helpful to give a clearer picture of what goes on in the world of GAA finance." I think the allocated funds are published albeit in a number of different sources The GAA accounts (which are a bit all over the place with no one figure on total GDF funding) and the ISC grants they are often publised in the week they are published.
I think the whole funding debate is very narrow myself, GDF etc is only one small part of GAA funding not inclusive of capital and commercial funding etc. So you actually have to go and do a lot of work to understand the exact sums being talked about and the equity of cumulative funding.
But you are right i dont think a criteria or methodology of how and why funding is shared and allocated with the public would be any harm at all.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 12/09/2018 13:10:27
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i cant see any other way out of it only to split dublin either that or not have intercounty any more but have divisions of ail clubs across ireland. maybe a provincial structure competition every few years
dickie10 (UK) - Posts: 687 - 12/09/2018 14:55:02
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What about a roster for players? Say there's 8 top County football teams (Super 8's) and they have their panel of 35-40 picked in January.
Each of those 8 Counties are allowed (optional) to put forward 15 players on the roster who would be interested in playing for another County. 120 players in total. Over the course of a weekend there is a number of trials played off between the players and the matches are scouted by the other 24 Counties.
Each of the other 24 Counties are allowed choose up to 5 players that they would like to introduce to their own County set up. If the player is selected by a number of Counties then the decision falls to them.
For every game a player plays in for their chosen County, Croke Park make a contribution say €500 to the players County Board (€250) and the Players Club (€250). Say they play 10 games that's €2.5k for that players club to go towards their facilities.
It would strengthen the weaker teams and also encourage clubs to put forward their best players so they can get the extra cash. I'm sure the idea has plenty of holes but it would definitely help out the smaller Counties.
Faithfull (Offaly) - Posts: 573 - 12/09/2018 15:12:54
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Replying To TheUsername: "Id take issue with you points mate.
I think there is argument there to be made that lower attendances are down purely because the entertainment of the games has been low, apart form Dublin and Kerry and one or two others who are in the minority, i cant think of teams who have gone and tried to play expansive football. Im not sure falling attendances are due t one team who happen to play 8 games when there is 100 in the championship. In essence no one wants to go and watch good teams try and break down a defensive shell, or two defensive shells cancel each other out. The problem with falling attendances is the lack of entertainment as opposed to the country waving a white flag at it in my honest opinion.
Has a player come out and said they cant compete with the Dubs?" I'd agree with you except people aren't going to Dublin and Kerry games either and they're the entertaining ones. We are witnessing possibly the greatest football team to ever play the game at the moment and they can't sell out Croker for a Leinster Final (40,000) or an All Ireland Semi final (54,000) there was only 27,000 at the Munster Football final in a ground that holds 45,000.
Aside from a fully fit Mayo nobody at the moment can get close to the Dubs and the weird effect of that is that players go out expecting defeat and fans are put off by (a) going to see your team get destroyed or (b) watching the Dubs destroy yet more cannon fodder.
My kids are both Dubs both play Football and Hurling and love playing both but they just can't get motivated to go and watch yet another mismatch in Croker, my son even went to a Cavan game with me this year because "at least it'll be close" (he was right we only beat Down by 2 points!).
I really don't know what the answer is but I don't think splitting Dublin will help. Eliminating the provincial championships I think would help to at least even out the number of matches teams play i.e a Champions League style format with 8 groups of four teams. Top two in each group progress to All Ireland and bottom two progress to B championship, everyone would be guarenteed at least 4 games (and yes I realise that the idea has been done to death at this stage but something needs to change).
This Dublin team are amazing and unlike the Kerry team that won 7 out of 9 between 78 and 86 they seem to be getting younger and better not all getting old together like that Kerry team allowed to happen.
cavandub (Cavan) - Posts: 67 - 14/09/2018 11:38:09
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For the craic I decided to look at how you could merge counties a la the original suggestion on this post, and pretended for a moment that Sky Sports get a bit more influence on the competition
Could only get it down to 18 teams...
Five counties to remain as single entities... (possibly split dublin into 3 to add two more teams)
Dublin Demons
Cork Rebels
Galway Tribesmen
Meath Royals
Kildare Lilywhites
Kerry (The Kingdom)
Rest
Thomond Riverboys - Clare/Limerick
Ormond Strongbows - Waterford/Tipp
Southeast Solars - Wicklow/Wexford/Carlow
Midlands Marauders - Offaly/Laois/Kilkenny
The Oriel - Louth Monaghan
Lakeland Monsters - Cavan/Longford
Northwest Earls - Donegal/Leitrim
Causeway Giants - Derry/Antrim
Cathedral Saints - Armagh/Down
Killala Krakens -Mayo/Sligo
Mid-Ulster Redhands - Tyrone/Fermanagh
Shannonside Pirates - Roscommon Westmeath
Dublin - could maybe be split into 3
Fingal Vikings
Westside Warriors
Dublin Bay Bandits.
I think Rupert Murdoch would be proud of me.
Maybe not Michael Cusack...
Al_Maguire (Donegal) - Posts: 244 - 14/09/2018 12:56:53
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Leitrim have sold their stadium naming rights.....influx of money.....
Split them into 2!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 14/09/2018 15:18:42
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Replying To cavandub: "I'd agree with you except people aren't going to Dublin and Kerry games either and they're the entertaining ones. We are witnessing possibly the greatest football team to ever play the game at the moment and they can't sell out Croker for a Leinster Final (40,000) or an All Ireland Semi final (54,000) there was only 27,000 at the Munster Football final in a ground that holds 45,000.
Aside from a fully fit Mayo nobody at the moment can get close to the Dubs and the weird effect of that is that players go out expecting defeat and fans are put off by (a) going to see your team get destroyed or (b) watching the Dubs destroy yet more cannon fodder.
My kids are both Dubs both play Football and Hurling and love playing both but they just can't get motivated to go and watch yet another mismatch in Croker, my son even went to a Cavan game with me this year because "at least it'll be close" (he was right we only beat Down by 2 points!).
I really don't know what the answer is but I don't think splitting Dublin will help. Eliminating the provincial championships I think would help to at least even out the number of matches teams play i.e a Champions League style format with 8 groups of four teams. Top two in each group progress to All Ireland and bottom two progress to B championship, everyone would be guarenteed at least 4 games (and yes I realise that the idea has been done to death at this stage but something needs to change).
This Dublin team are amazing and unlike the Kerry team that won 7 out of 9 between 78 and 86 they seem to be getting younger and better not all getting old together like that Kerry team allowed to happen." I stand by my point really, there are over 100 games in the championship every year, only 8 of them include Dublin, assuming they make a final. The entertainment value has been shockingly bad broadly and i put that down to poor provision of entertainment and a defensive shell approach personally.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 14/09/2018 15:41:52
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I think everyone is panicking, if Kerry win next year and Dublin lose everyone will think things are grand.
As regard the ultra defensive teams, Dublin have proven that it won't beat a more expansive style. The blanket has been defeated, a balance looks the more likely for most teams in the future.
As regard a split (which I see as unlikely), it would create two problems. Dublin North would be a force and Dublin South would emerge as a top side given time. Hurling in the capital would be very badly hit.
FOB (Dublin) - Posts: 912 - 15/09/2018 09:45:01
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Replying To Killarney.87: "There is a lot of talk about splitting Dublin in two and I don't really buy into it.
Instead, how about merging county teams like the way Rugby did with club teams becoming provincial teams e.g. Irish provinces, Neath/Swansea Ospreys etc.
Before I get slammed for this, I think the option should be given and if some bordering counties wanted to do it then let them.
As an example you could have 4 teams in Munster: Kerry, Cork, Tipp/Waterford team (Ormond), Clare/ Limerick (Thomond).
Basically leave the teams who are traditionally strong alone and let the other teams merge if they wish.
I would love if there were only 20 inter county football teams and have say a Division 1 and 2 league with top team being crowned champions after the nine rounds of fixtures.
For championship have 4 groups of 5 (2 home games, 2 away games and neutral) Top two go into a straight knockout quarter finals.
There is some cracking talent in every single county that never gets a chance to shine on the biggest stage because of accident of birth. Merging counties would give these guys a better chance. Nobody enjoys watching a division 4 team getting thrashed by a division 1 team in championship." I posted a similar suggestion on another trail but it didn't get past the administrator
I suggested scrapping the entire intercounty system and having a junior , senior and intermediate intercounty championship run similarly to the Kerry county football championship
Junior teams (new city teams and div 4):
London, Belfast, Derry city, Galway City, Cork City, Dublin City, New York, Kilkenny, Leitrim, Waterford, Antrim, Wicklow, Limerick, Derry, Wexford, Carlow
Intermediate (div 2 and 3):
Kildare, Donegal, Clare, tipp, Meath, Cork, Down, Louth,
Armagh, Fermanagh, Longford, Westmeath, Sligo, Offaly, Laois, Roscommon
Senior (current div 1 teams with regional teams)
Kerry, Dublin North, Dublin South, Mayo, Galway, Monaghan, Tyrone, Cavan,
Replace the league with Round robin format for junior, intermediate and (senior counties only - no regional teams)
Then run Sam Maguire cup with additional regional regional teams listed below
Connacht, Meide (Meath, Westmeath, Longford, Louth), Thomond (Clare, Limerick, Offaly), Tir Connail (Donegal, Derry, Fermanagh), Ulaid (Antrim, Down, Armagh), Leinster (Wexford, Kilkenny, Carlow, Laois), Munster ( Cork, Tipp, Waterford), The pale (Dublin City, Kildare, Wicklow)
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 16/09/2018 09:09:55
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I don' see Cavan or Managhan, Tyrone or Kerry in this proposal. Kilkenny don't take part in the Leinster SFC.
Putting Offaly in Thomond, really!
thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1741 - 16/09/2018 12:48:33
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