National Forum

Is Dublin's Success False, Tarnished And Bought?

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Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "
Replying To Greenfield:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "Dublin GAA representative in 2011 - "From a financial point of view we do need to be pushing for provincial status. Right now we have about 20% of the country's population...So it doesn't make sense that we should still be considered one 32th of the country, rather than 1/5"

This is the same argument I've made regards provincial status and the traditional values of the Railway Cup."
No link provided, no identifiable source quoted -> no attention paid."
No google search carried out, nobody giving the information on a plate -> happy to keep the head in the sand

Link: http://www.stsylvesters.ie/files/the-blue-wave.pdf

Andy Kettle's Blue Wave document.

From page 29:
The Strategic Committee believes that there should be a mutual recognition
of the interdependent relationship between Dublin's ambitions for the GAA
in the capital city and the overall wellbeing of the Association. It will require
Dublin County Board to step up to its responsibility to implement the
strategic initiatives recommended in this review. It will also require Central
Council to embrace a different funding model, one which addresses the
strategic significance of Dublin.
One way of addressing this issue is for the GAA to extend Provincial status
to Dublin for certain purposes including:
■ providing a long-term commitment to an agreed minimum annual
level of funding, commensurate with the development challenge for
the GAA in Dublin, to support games development, and club and
county infrastructure development.
■ affording the Chairman of the Dublin Co Board permanent
representation on Coisti Banaistí."]Seriously? Did you even read what you copied and pasted or did you just put in the first item that had a key word search including "provincial status"? Firstly, the provided quotes are different so I'm not sure why you've included these as a way to corroborate the original post. Secondly, the quotes just refer to a suggestion to extend provincial status to Dublin for funding purposes and to support the overall GAA strategy- no aspect refers to Dublin competing on a provincial level. Can you please explain what point exactly you were trying to make with the provided quotes as I am genuinely lost?"]The original quote from legend started with:

"From a financial point of view we do need to be pushing for provincial status."

The quote from the blue wave document is not identical but in essence is the same thing.

I don't see any merit in the idead of Dublin competing at a provincial level and haven't mentioned it. You brought it up in reply so perhaps you have gotten yourself lost there.

Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 522 - 10/09/2018 16:36:11    2140807

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Replying To SaffronDon:  "
Replying To Kurt_Angle:  "What a gross exaggeration! Certain larger Dublin clubs will provide young kids with a hurley and a helmet when they turn up. They do not get these items for free - they are given back at the end of training / matches. This is purely an effort to get more kids involved in the sport and not to exclude kids whose families might struggle to provide such items. Quoting a "friend of a friend" will invariably result in spouting nonsense - "free helmets and hurls for every under age player in Dublin", my eye!"
I already said fair enough. Some of you lads need to wind the neck in. You'd think you owned Hoganstand as well as the GAA ;)"
Dublin GAA have done great work in promoting gaelic games and the popularity
of the games in the capital is a joy. Their superb football team are wonderful ambassadors
for the game. Is their any hope that Antrim with its huge population cannot take a leaf
from Dublin GAA and lay the foundations for future success.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 598 - 10/09/2018 17:04:25    2140817

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Replying To fainleog:  "
Replying To SaffronDon:  "[quote=Kurt_Angle:  "What a gross exaggeration! Certain larger Dublin clubs will provide young kids with a hurley and a helmet when they turn up. They do not get these items for free - they are given back at the end of training / matches. This is purely an effort to get more kids involved in the sport and not to exclude kids whose families might struggle to provide such items. Quoting a "friend of a friend" will invariably result in spouting nonsense - "free helmets and hurls for every under age player in Dublin", my eye!"
I already said fair enough. Some of you lads need to wind the neck in. You'd think you owned Hoganstand as well as the GAA ;)"
Dublin GAA have done great work in promoting gaelic games and the popularity
of the games in the capital is a joy. Their superb football team are wonderful ambassadors
for the game. Is their any hope that Antrim with its huge population cannot take a leaf
from Dublin GAA and lay the foundations for future success."]Comparing Dublin with Belfast or Antrim as a county for that matter is completely chalk and cheese I'm afraid. I'd love nothing more than to see Antrim in any way shape or form near the level of the Dubs. But what works for Dublin would hit a brick wall up here. Just take a look at Casement Park in its current condition. It is symbolic of the mismanagement of our county on all levels. Id be here all evening talking about the many hurdles holding us back as a county. Anything that is going to work for us will take a lot longer than it did for Dublin who were hardly on the scrap heap beforehand anyway.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 10/09/2018 17:44:39    2140831

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If Dublin is split into however many, will Dubs not want the old entity retained in some form?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 10/09/2018 19:06:46    2140847

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Replying To legendzxix:  "If Dublin is split into however many, will Dubs not want the old entity retained in some form?"
Dublin will not be split into many, despite the number of times you say it. If splitting
were to take place on the basis of population, surely Leitrim would be the common
denominator and Kerry would be split in five as Kerry have approximately five times
the population of Leitrim and I would not like to have Dublin and Kerry split in many.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 598 - 10/09/2018 20:25:19    2140857

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Replying To Dubh_linn:  "You obviously read the article and either decided to put your own spin on it to get a reaction or are just not able to comprehend what he was trying to get across.
The article was simply stating that Dublin players are working every bit as hard for their achievements as any other county and wasn't suggesting that other counties had it any easier. He never said anything of the sort.

Try reading it again slowly and without prejudice."
Ah! the spin doctor himself.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 10/09/2018 20:27:35    2140858

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The majority of the Dubs panel were apparently back in the gym last Thursday. ;)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 10/09/2018 20:41:20    2140860

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Replying To TheUsername:  "The majority of the Dubs panel were apparently back in the gym last Thursday. ;)"
It appears they have their eye on five in a row.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 598 - 10/09/2018 20:54:37    2140869

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Replying To fainleog:  "It appears they have their eye on five in a row."
To be fair they have the club championship in mind I would say too.

In Cluxtons speech this year he said they prepare for the All Ireland championship for 50 weeks in the year.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 10/09/2018 20:59:23    2140870

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Replying To fainleog:  "Dublin will not be split into many, despite the number of times you say it. If splitting
were to take place on the basis of population, surely Leitrim would be the common
denominator and Kerry would be split in five as Kerry have approximately five times
the population of Leitrim and I would not like to have Dublin and Kerry split in many."
If Leitrim was the common denominator then Dublin would be entering 50 different teams in to the championship such is the gulf in population alone never mind money, with their approx 1.5 million population to our approx 30,000.

leitrim4sam (Leitrim) - Posts: 645 - 10/09/2018 21:41:56    2140881

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Replying To leitrim4sam:  "If Leitrim was the common denominator then Dublin would be entering 50 different teams in to the championship such is the gulf in population alone never mind money, with their approx 1.5 million population to our approx 30,000."
The point that was been made is that many counties would have to be split, if population
is a factor. Antrim has the second largest population in Ireland, would you split that county
into numerous parts also. Cork have more registered players than Dublin, would you split
that into more parts than you would split Dublin. People begrudge Dublins success despite
the excellent football they play. It would be great if other counties could play the quality
football that Dublin play. Good luck to Leitrim in their quest for Sam.

fainleog (Limerick) - Posts: 598 - 10/09/2018 22:17:05    2140889

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There needs to be a second tier championhsip...we have it in club football. It's a no brainer. If it's marketed and promoted correctly there is no reason why the second tier can't work out.

Counties like cork, Meath, Kildare etc really need to pull up their socks and challenge Dublin. They should be closer but this Dublin team won't be around forever.

The so called death of Gaelic football is no being caused by Dublin...see Brollys tweet and the ridiculous club game in Derry at the weekend to see what the Black Death is.

yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 10/09/2018 22:41:24    2140896

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Replying To fainleog:  "The point that was been made is that many counties would have to be split, if population
is a factor. Antrim has the second largest population in Ireland, would you split that county
into numerous parts also. Cork have more registered players than Dublin, would you split
that into more parts than you would split Dublin. People begrudge Dublins success despite
the excellent football they play. It would be great if other counties could play the quality
football that Dublin play. Good luck to Leitrim in their quest for Sam."
The population of dublin is still dwarfing every other county hence the call for a split. Saying other counties that have big populations so should be split is a silly argument to be honest which adds nothing to the debate that needs to be had, a simple look at the populations of each county tells you that.

I dont agree with a split personally but the populations are there of a province, the financial backing is there of a province and those facts mean people will be calling for a split.

When we look at the leinster championship its dead and buried with one county with the population and backing of a province taking on counties whos nearest comparison is Kildare whose population and finance is dwarfed by Dublin.

The football argument needs to be seperated from the funding and population argument imho as ive said previously.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1349 - 11/09/2018 09:53:34    2140933

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Replying To tearintom:  "The population of dublin is still dwarfing every other county hence the call for a split. Saying other counties that have big populations so should be split is a silly argument to be honest which adds nothing to the debate that needs to be had, a simple look at the populations of each county tells you that.

I dont agree with a split personally but the populations are there of a province, the financial backing is there of a province and those facts mean people will be calling for a split.

When we look at the leinster championship its dead and buried with one county with the population and backing of a province taking on counties whos nearest comparison is Kildare whose population and finance is dwarfed by Dublin.

The football argument needs to be seperated from the funding and population argument imho as ive said previously."
Exactly, none of the other counties are receiving the funding and administration of provincial status.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 11/09/2018 10:47:08    2140948

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Replying To yew_tree:  "There needs to be a second tier championhsip...we have it in club football. It's a no brainer. If it's marketed and promoted correctly there is no reason why the second tier can't work out.

Counties like cork, Meath, Kildare etc really need to pull up their socks and challenge Dublin. They should be closer but this Dublin team won't be around forever.

The so called death of Gaelic football is no being caused by Dublin...see Brollys tweet and the ridiculous club game in Derry at the weekend to see what the Black Death is."
How do you suggest all these other counties mount a sustainable challenge to Dublin? It's not as if nobody is trying. Every county, including your own, can have a particular bunch of players come along and over 5-7 years give Dublin a game but chances are Dublin's talent pool will outlast yours. Personally I like to think we are a coming team, a decent senior squad already in place and an All Ireland u20 winning team to blend into that squad, so we'll see what we can do but Dublin will always have advantages over everyone else, Dublin fans themselves acknowledge that. Every county has hard working coaches and volunteers who give their best, but if you are working from a smaller base than the team at the top you can pull your socks up as far as you want, it still may not be enough as every single county us finding out. On the Derry thing, if that is going to be the future nothing will matter because nobody will be watching anyway.

kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/09/2018 11:51:57    2140974

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The best Dublin team on and off the pitch of all time and like all great sides will only be truly appreciated in years to come. Do Dublin have huge advantages over other counties? of course they do but that's hardly their fault and as others have said similar inequalities exist right throughout the organisation. The two Newbridge clubs have practically farmed out the Kildare senior championship this century but at least Athy and Celbridge nick the odd one and have more or less equal potential. Leaving the central funding out of it their own business model with AIG and several other partners is something no other county can aspire to and has played a huge role in widening the gap, remember sponsorship is a relatively new thing and Dublin have it to a fine art. Mayo and Kerry have raised huge funds abroad but that's not sustainable especially when the ultimate success doesn't follow. So for me the titles are neither bought or tarnished but the current model isn't sustainable either.

lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 11/09/2018 13:19:57    2141005

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Replying To kildare73:  "How do you suggest all these other counties mount a sustainable challenge to Dublin? It's not as if nobody is trying. Every county, including your own, can have a particular bunch of players come along and over 5-7 years give Dublin a game but chances are Dublin's talent pool will outlast yours. Personally I like to think we are a coming team, a decent senior squad already in place and an All Ireland u20 winning team to blend into that squad, so we'll see what we can do but Dublin will always have advantages over everyone else, Dublin fans themselves acknowledge that. Every county has hard working coaches and volunteers who give their best, but if you are working from a smaller base than the team at the top you can pull your socks up as far as you want, it still may not be enough as every single county us finding out. On the Derry thing, if that is going to be the future nothing will matter because nobody will be watching anyway."
This... "but if you are working from a smaller base than the team at the top you can pull your socks up as far as you want, it still may not be enough" ...is all relative though isn't it? Kerry are working from a smaller base than Cork, Sligo from a smaller base than Galway, almost every county from a smaller base than Antrim and Leitrim from a smaller base than any county. This has always been the case but if you think this is the root cause of the problem, if there is one, and the secret to Dublin's success, how do you propose to solve it? Croatia nearly won the world cup this year!!

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 11/09/2018 15:32:59    2141039

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The reality is that Dublin underachieved for many years, especially in the 80's, 90's and 00's. This was partially down to the Kerry team of the 80s, the kerry/tyrone team of the 00s. the 90s is enigmatic, as there were so many teams involved in the race for sam. But the bottom line is that in the late 00s and early teens, they got their act together. Of course money had an impact on this. But there were other factors too (Dublin had good sponsorship previous to their more recent suitors).

Willingness on the ground by volunteers to do needed work. A desire for among young people to play gaa over other sports, an unprecedented development in the history of Dublin sport. This would have developed from winning as well as marketing it to youth. You cant argue that this is within the rights of Dublin gaa to do this.

Are other counties envious? Definitely. Are other counties going to be able to cope with Dublin's momentum? Most are definitely not, whilst in the past, there would have been Kerry and another member of the field to challenge Dublin. From now on, I would say that the Dubs will be only challenged by Kerry as they seem to have got their act together with underage success. Their management has also changed and is being heralded by players retiring.

Jim McGuinness described in his book the 2011 -2014 years and what was involved on the ground to challenge for an all Ireland. He was very honest about the infrastructure that he had to set up, around 50 people who were willing to work as pros for nothing in the background. While this may seem a slight against what he achieved personally, it is the reality of what is required to win sam now.

I would say if Dublin's championship wins in recent years are slighted by aforementioned conditions and influences, so too is Donegal's 2012 win.

There is a pre emptive arms race of conditions in preparing a county team that is now in situ forever. There is no way of stopping these criteria as counties will always be able to invent ways around them, keeping things under the radar if necessary. If you don't meet the criteria, you will not only be unable to compete, but you will be decimated in the later stages of the championship aka Roscommon or Kildare.

Bottom line. We cant play favourites with winning counties success in the modern era, but we cant be blind or hypocritical either when looking at the entire picture around success and what is needed to be consistently so.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 11/09/2018 16:53:14    2141060

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Replying To Joxer:  "This... "but if you are working from a smaller base than the team at the top you can pull your socks up as far as you want, it still may not be enough" ...is all relative though isn't it? Kerry are working from a smaller base than Cork, Sligo from a smaller base than Galway, almost every county from a smaller base than Antrim and Leitrim from a smaller base than any county. This has always been the case but if you think this is the root cause of the problem, if there is one, and the secret to Dublin's success, how do you propose to solve it? Croatia nearly won the world cup this year!!"
"Croatia nearly won the world cup this year" is the same as saying Tyrone nearly won the All Ireland. Bottom line is neither one did win either competition so its a lazy line to throw up. Of course some other team will end up in a final, are you saying the height of everyone else's ambitions now is to be "the other team" and accept that that's our lot?

kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 11/09/2018 17:57:47    2141074

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Replying To Donegalman:  "The reality is that Dublin underachieved for many years, especially in the 80's, 90's and 00's. This was partially down to the Kerry team of the 80s, the kerry/tyrone team of the 00s. the 90s is enigmatic, as there were so many teams involved in the race for sam. But the bottom line is that in the late 00s and early teens, they got their act together. Of course money had an impact on this. But there were other factors too (Dublin had good sponsorship previous to their more recent suitors).

Willingness on the ground by volunteers to do needed work. A desire for among young people to play gaa over other sports, an unprecedented development in the history of Dublin sport. This would have developed from winning as well as marketing it to youth. You cant argue that this is within the rights of Dublin gaa to do this.

Are other counties envious? Definitely. Are other counties going to be able to cope with Dublin's momentum? Most are definitely not, whilst in the past, there would have been Kerry and another member of the field to challenge Dublin. From now on, I would say that the Dubs will be only challenged by Kerry as they seem to have got their act together with underage success. Their management has also changed and is being heralded by players retiring.

Jim McGuinness described in his book the 2011 -2014 years and what was involved on the ground to challenge for an all Ireland. He was very honest about the infrastructure that he had to set up, around 50 people who were willing to work as pros for nothing in the background. While this may seem a slight against what he achieved personally, it is the reality of what is required to win sam now.

I would say if Dublin's championship wins in recent years are slighted by aforementioned conditions and influences, so too is Donegal's 2012 win.

There is a pre emptive arms race of conditions in preparing a county team that is now in situ forever. There is no way of stopping these criteria as counties will always be able to invent ways around them, keeping things under the radar if necessary. If you don't meet the criteria, you will not only be unable to compete, but you will be decimated in the later stages of the championship aka Roscommon or Kildare.

Bottom line. We cant play favourites with winning counties success in the modern era, but we cant be blind or hypocritical either when looking at the entire picture around success and what is needed to be consistently so."
I'd agree with a lot of this. The lack of underage success within Dublin would suggest that the simple equation of money + population = success is completely false. This is evidenced by the lack of success for the hurlers also. Funding has been split evenly between football and hurling for over two decades in Dublin I believe. Dubs have favoured the big ball since the 70s successes and hence youths have gravitated towards that code. Cork have a bigger pooulation, more clubs and more money than most hurling counties yet Liam has evaded them. Why? I think bearing these factors in mind, Dublin's lack of success at underage, Kerry's overachievements at underage and there may be a changing of the guard shortly. Dublin's current success is very much hinged on a golden generation of very talented footballers, grounded by a very shrewd coaching panel and management team. Contrary to the belief of some flat earthers in the media, a certain Kildare man comes to mind, Dublin will not dominate for eternity, on a wave of endless investment and a population the size of China. I do expect them to be competitive though but then again they always have been, just like Kerry.

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 11/09/2018 17:59:48    2141076

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