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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "by mckennas logic, is it not as weighted in favour of say Mayo/Galway in Connacht ahead of say Leitrim or Sligo?
If winning a connacht is the height of Leitrim's ambition, but their chances are hugely stifled as opposed to say Mayo/Galway by means of population, money and sponsorship.....is this not a smaller version of the same thing?" YES!! Finally it seems its starting to dawn on some people..
It wouldnt take much of an accountant in HQ to figure out which counties are capable of raising, consistently, the most monies either through fund raising or sponsorship so they can then in turn give the financially weaker counties the greatest funding to try at least support the counties needing it the most.. Its not rocket science.. It still would not be balanced but it would be a hell of alot better than the one team with the biggest government funding plus the biggest sponsorship funding getting the the most funding from HQ!
If the GAA decided in the morning to cut Kildare, Meath and Dublins central funding by relative percentages to help say Wicklow, Louth and Offaly to try make Leinster more competitive id be more than happy..
cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 163 - 05/09/2018 21:45:41
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Dublin's success has been earned and they have taken the opportunity afforded to them.
Dublin should get more funding in order to promote GAA in the biggest population centre.
The question is how should the money be collected and distributed.
The GAA gave money to Dublin. Dublin decided the best way to promote GAA in the capital was to invest in producing an elite team by means of coaching/underage elite player development and then a high performance senior team.
This has created a self financing brand. The GAA no longer has to invest in Dublin and can now generate wealth from matches involving Dublin.
The problem is that they have now removed competition from the championship and haven't increased the no of GAA clubs in Dublin or provided sufficent playing facilities to expand the playing population in Dublin.
On that basis it was badly spent money because crowds are dropping and interest is lower in the senior championship which will ultimately effect finances.
By not having sufficient clubs or playing fields they have missed the chance to grow the playing numbers and are actually losing potentially elite level players through lack of opportunities to play at senior level (both senior club and senior county).
There is also an elite club system where the big clubs are getting bigger and the smaller clubs are less competitive than ever.
The whole funding system is disfunctional.
Professional sport in the US (most capitalist country in the world) is designed to keep the whole sport competitive (multiple teams in bigger cities, salary caps, draft systems etc) but "amateur" sport in Ireland is designed to reward those with the greatest natural advantages (population, greater sponsorship, more grants etc).
The reality is Dublin would be in the top 6 every year if they never go a penny from the GAA. Giving them money guaranteed they would become invincible.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1126 - 05/09/2018 22:14:26
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Its far from tarnished and certainly not bought. Dublin being a county that is essentially all a city with the best public transport and is one of the smallest in size, geographically means it has huge advantages. That its the capital city of the country makes it even more advantageous.
Dublin possibly have had the luck of the green with some of the funding its received but GAA clubs in the city have the most competition of probably any counties clubs because of the same reasons as above. Its a city and a capital at that so there is more options for kids/people to take part in than a lot of the country.
Yes the counties got a lot of funding but money doesnt win you trophies. Saying their wins are false is damn ignorant of the work the clubs have put in to develop these players to county level and ignores all the long hours the county players put in on the pitch and in the gym
DonaldDuck (Tipperary) - Posts: 544 - 05/09/2018 22:41:23
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The main reason why Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone have repeatedly failed to dethrone us is the glaringly obvious fact that they don't have a Mikey Sheehy or a Tomás O'Sé, they don't have a Ciaran McDonald, nor a Peter Canavan or an O'Neill.
Spread the money wide and far, this Dublin team would still win.
Will it become problematic if we keep winning? Yes it will. Will we keep winning? No we won't. If the 5 is achieved, or even if it isn't, there will be a huge shift. Id imagine Cluxton will go, and probably Jim Gavin as well as a few of our older players.
The man that takes over will have to be moulded in the same fashion to keep this ticking along and there's only one Jim Gavin, so simmer down all you worried souls.
realdub (Dublin) - Posts: 8596 - 06/09/2018 04:05:41
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Replying To avonali: "I think its important to point out in the context of a debate about Dublin's perceived advantages that our underage teams have not had much success recently.
Also, while I acknowledge that a lot of kids in Dublin play football, hurling and camogie, GAA doesn't have the widespread appeal that it has in other counties. Drive through Dublin housing estates and you'll see some flags and bunting, particularly in areas where there is a club in the vicinity. Drive through Mayo or any other county when they're involved in Championship football and you'll see flags in nearly every house.
I think it was interesting that while Tyrone had 30,000 fans out to welcome home their team, only 4-5000 turned up in Smithfield. So, yes while Dublin has a huge population in comparison to other counties our perceived advantage in this regard is not necessarily commensurate. Also, if people ado the research they will see that grant funding per capita has dropped in Dublin and that other counties receive more per registered player." Perceived advantages apart from the accent give me one disadvantage dublin have .
I live in dublin and bring my son to kilmacud croker as a dad he'll out. Great club well run . 100 9 year old boys show up for training . Spoke to the 11years manager and he has over 50. This is one club, population counts for alot.
There are clubs in dublin that are better run and have more money than some of the weaker counties.
ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 06/09/2018 07:18:10
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Replying To cuttothebone: "YES!! Finally it seems its starting to dawn on some people..
It wouldnt take much of an accountant in HQ to figure out which counties are capable of raising, consistently, the most monies either through fund raising or sponsorship so they can then in turn give the financially weaker counties the greatest funding to try at least support the counties needing it the most.. Its not rocket science.. It still would not be balanced but it would be a hell of alot better than the one team with the biggest government funding plus the biggest sponsorship funding getting the the most funding from HQ!
If the GAA decided in the morning to cut Kildare, Meath and Dublins central funding by relative percentages to help say Wicklow, Louth and Offaly to try make Leinster more competitive id be more than happy.." This is the thing.
That's why as my previous post I don't see Dublin's legacy being anyway tarnished, they are separate issues, if Dublin were winning nothing at any level the disparity in funding is still disgusting but the problem is people see it as a Dublin issue because they are winning when it's simply a GAA issue.
In 2011 Dublin's plan was to be treated like a province, this was in their blue wave plan and at the time the Gaa said absolutely under no circumstances will Dublin be treated financially like a province yet 7 years later where do we find ourselves. Where did that promise go?
Fair play to Dublin I admire them for putting their plans in place and making the very best of what's been afforded them but as I said previously the gaa should hang their heads in shame by abandoning the very ethos of fairness on which the gaa was founded.
Due to population Dublin should receive more money but not to the level there is now and has been for over a decade and that needs to be balanced with a counties ability to attract funds elsewhere.
tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1349 - 06/09/2018 09:14:09
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Replying To realdub: "The main reason why Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone have repeatedly failed to dethrone us is the glaringly obvious fact that they don't have a Mikey Sheehy or a Tomás O'Sé, they don't have a Ciaran McDonald, nor a Peter Canavan or an O'Neill.
Spread the money wide and far, this Dublin team would still win.
Will it become problematic if we keep winning? Yes it will. Will we keep winning? No we won't. If the 5 is achieved, or even if it isn't, there will be a huge shift. Id imagine Cluxton will go, and probably Jim Gavin as well as a few of our older players.
The man that takes over will have to be moulded in the same fashion to keep this ticking along and there's only one Jim Gavin, so simmer down all you worried souls." This is a bit of a daft assessment of it all. No marquee player outside of Dublin???
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 06/09/2018 10:25:03
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The one manager who has consistenly refused to put Dublin's success down to funding/finance is Mickey Harte. In my opinion the reason being he knows whilst not as universally discussed Tyrone have a huge amount of resources at their disposal. Do not estimate the amount of money Club Tyrone put into that county. One only has to look at their training complex which would not be out of place in a professional sports set up. Over the past twenty years Kerry have had the same sponsorship from a huge organisation and all the big counties along the west coast benefit hugely from ex pats overseas. Yes grants have helped Dublin, but urban areas have their own problems to deal with. Look at Derry, Belfast, and until recently Limerick City, these are areas where GAA has a massive challenge to compete. In terms of resources for a senior team Dublin are well looked after but lets not pretend Tyrone, Mayo and Kerry in particular spend any less on their senior team preparations. All this talk of Dublin's finance is not bringing much underage success, so the argument is lost that money wins Championships. This is an outstanding team and even with all the coaching going on in Dublin, as a county they won't win Sam forever. Yes the article is correct that the coaching going on will ensure Dublin consistently compete at the top level but so will other big counties who have huge resources themselves.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 06/09/2018 10:34:08
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Replying To gotmilk: "I count 7 that were involved in Sundays 21...still only a third." Just saw another chart on twitter around something similar.
From 2011 to 2018
Dublin have 5 players that started / came on as a sub in the final game they played in that 8 year period.
Another 5 players that were involved in the final game over 7 seasons
4 involved in the final game over 6 seasons
6 players that were involved in the final game over 5 seasons
That's a group of 20 players that were involved in at least 5 of the last games of the last 8 seasons.
Its not a once off generation team but Dublin do have a core group of players they've used in that period.
If you were to go on their 4 in a row teams the numbers get tighter:
24 players involved altogether (not including panel players or players who didn't make an appearance)
11 players involved in all 4 final games between 2015 and 2018
9 players involved in 3
2 players involved in 2
1 player involved in 1
Considering that Mannion and McCaffrey both took years off the numbers would increase for the first measure even further.
To sum up, it shows just how much the game has changed in terms of the panel usage
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 06/09/2018 10:44:32
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Is Dublin's Success False, Tarnished And Bought?
Of course it is! Sure the whole country knows it. I know staunch GAA people including former intercounty footballers who didn't even bother watching it. You wouldn't watch it the same way you wouldn't watch Man City play Kidderminster Harriers. Intercounty GAA is dead, just a few counties still arsed like Monaghan etc As I've said before, come back to me when the GAA/Dublin humiliate them and their supporters a few more times in croke Park.
Crinigan (Meath) - Posts: 1319 - 06/09/2018 10:45:48
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The Railway Cup again is the natural solution to this evolution. Six Nations Rugby generates massive revenue and promotes that sport.
A 5 team inter-provincial round robin can also generate revenue for the GAA. It can also assist Gaelic-games being firmly the most played and supported games.
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7870 - 06/09/2018 10:51:05
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Replying To sam1884: "The one manager who has consistenly refused to put Dublin's success down to funding/finance is Mickey Harte. In my opinion the reason being he knows whilst not as universally discussed Tyrone have a huge amount of resources at their disposal. Do not estimate the amount of money Club Tyrone put into that county. One only has to look at their training complex which would not be out of place in a professional sports set up. Over the past twenty years Kerry have had the same sponsorship from a huge organisation and all the big counties along the west coast benefit hugely from ex pats overseas. Yes grants have helped Dublin, but urban areas have their own problems to deal with. Look at Derry, Belfast, and until recently Limerick City, these are areas where GAA has a massive challenge to compete. In terms of resources for a senior team Dublin are well looked after but lets not pretend Tyrone, Mayo and Kerry in particular spend any less on their senior team preparations. All this talk of Dublin's finance is not bringing much underage success, so the argument is lost that money wins Championships. This is an outstanding team and even with all the coaching going on in Dublin, as a county they won't win Sam forever. Yes the article is correct that the coaching going on will ensure Dublin consistently compete at the top level but so will other big counties who have huge resources themselves." Underage structures are very strong in Dublin. They have won 4 out of 8 u21 all irelands between 2010 to 2017 when the competition was being run. That means They will be good for the next decade in their senior panel. To say that Dublin have been unsuccessful at underage level is quite astonishing really.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 06/09/2018 11:11:03
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Dublin's success has been earned and they have taken the opportunity afforded to them.
Dublin should get more funding in order to promote GAA in the biggest population centre.
The question is how should the money be collected and distributed.
The GAA gave money to Dublin. Dublin decided the best way to promote GAA in the capital was to invest in producing an elite team by means of coaching/underage elite player development and then a high performance senior team.
This has created a self financing brand. The GAA no longer has to invest in Dublin and can now generate wealth from matches involving Dublin.
The problem is that they have now removed competition from the championship and haven't increased the no of GAA clubs in Dublin or provided sufficent playing facilities to expand the playing population in Dublin.
On that basis it was badly spent money because crowds are dropping and interest is lower in the senior championship which will ultimately effect finances.
By not having sufficient clubs or playing fields they have missed the chance to grow the playing numbers and are actually losing potentially elite level players through lack of opportunities to play at senior level (both senior club and senior county).
There is also an elite club system where the big clubs are getting bigger and the smaller clubs are less competitive than ever.
The whole funding system is disfunctional.
Professional sport in the US (most capitalist country in the world) is designed to keep the whole sport competitive (multiple teams in bigger cities, salary caps, draft systems etc) but "amateur" sport in Ireland is designed to reward those with the greatest natural advantages (population, greater sponsorship, more grants etc).
The reality is Dublin would be in the top 6 every year if they never go a penny from the GAA. Giving them money guaranteed they would become invincible."
Dublin decided the best way to promote GAA in the capital was to invest in producing an elite team by means of coaching/underage elite player development and then a high performance senior team.
That is not were the money went. The money went to the opposite side of that statement..club coaches in nurseries..the result. Because not to mix the two. One is a consequence of the other but Dublin are not spending more on their county teams than a Kerry or a Mayo or a Tyrone
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 06/09/2018 11:12:20
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Jealousy that is what we are all feeling , not one true supporter would not love to have this team running out in their colours bringing glory creating history.
Dublin fans should thank Gavin but I feel Gilroy more as he turned them into a professional outfit.
Before Gilroy I beleive Brian Mullens got laughed out of it because of the backroom demands he was making yet I beleive Dublin have 30 support staff (all free of charge), poor Cluxton couldn't remember all there names for his speech at the weekend ;-),
Any Dublin Fan who thinks money doesn't help needs a lesson in honesty.
ulsterrules (Donegal) - Posts: 259 - 06/09/2018 11:45:28
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Replying To Donegalman: "Underage structures are very strong in Dublin. They have won 4 out of 8 u21 all irelands between 2010 to 2017 when the competition was being run. That means They will be good for the next decade in their senior panel. To say that Dublin have been unsuccessful at underage level is quite astonishing really." A lot of the U21 success you mention is the backbone of the current Dublin Senior team. Kerry have just completed 5 in a row at minor level and Kildare won the U20 All Ireland. So the argument that nobody can complete due to Dublin's finance is wrong. This Senior Dublin team are just a special team, the best ever, money has not won them those All Irelands.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 06/09/2018 11:59:59
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Replying To sam1884: "A lot of the U21 success you mention is the backbone of the current Dublin Senior team. Kerry have just completed 5 in a row at minor level and Kildare won the U20 All Ireland. So the argument that nobody can complete due to Dublin's finance is wrong. This Senior Dublin team are just a special team, the best ever, money has not won them those All Irelands." So money wasn't a factor then?
Thanks for clearing that up.
This current squad of once in a generation elite athletes were just really unlucky to arrive on the scene at the same time as the GAA's investment in Dublin GAA allied to the other advantages would be expected to mature and bear fruit. Only for that their achievements would be getting all of the respect they deserve.
Pesky co-incidences ruining everything.
Greenfield (Meath) - Posts: 522 - 06/09/2018 13:29:15
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Replying To keithlemon: "Just saw another chart on twitter around something similar.
From 2011 to 2018
Dublin have 5 players that started / came on as a sub in the final game they played in that 8 year period.
Another 5 players that were involved in the final game over 7 seasons
4 involved in the final game over 6 seasons
6 players that were involved in the final game over 5 seasons
That's a group of 20 players that were involved in at least 5 of the last games of the last 8 seasons.
Its not a once off generation team but Dublin do have a core group of players they've used in that period.
If you were to go on their 4 in a row teams the numbers get tighter:
24 players involved altogether (not including panel players or players who didn't make an appearance)
11 players involved in all 4 final games between 2015 and 2018
9 players involved in 3
2 players involved in 2
1 player involved in 1
Considering that Mannion and McCaffrey both took years off the numbers would increase for the first measure even further.
To sum up, it shows just how much the game has changed in terms of the panel usage" But also games, if you make a comparison to the Dublin and Kerry team 4 in a rows, Kerry played 19 to get to 5 All Ireland Finals, Dublin have 28 to get to four All Ireland finals.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 06/09/2018 13:46:14
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Just on the financial piece and in particular GDF.
The actual figure Dublin take out of GAA central funds is 200k. The remainder of the 1 mill is provided by the ISC annually to promote and fund underage development of Gaelic games in Dublin.
Arguably if the ISC funding is cut tomorrow. The GAA have a massive problem on their hands, essentially what would happen everyone would be a looser, Dublin would likely receive more money out of central funds for games development, funding would be cut for counties elsewhere.
Politically can the GAA turns down an added 1million "grant" for want of a better word. Dublins funding is far more political then people think. So really the role of the GAA is a bit limited here despite the heat they often take.
In the short term it would have little to do with the senior team, The Dublin Senior teams across the board are self funded by the revenue they create in fact they have a bit to spare.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 06/09/2018 13:53:17
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Replying To legendzxix: "The Railway Cup again is the natural solution to this evolution. Six Nations Rugby generates massive revenue and promotes that sport.
A 5 team inter-provincial round robin can also generate revenue for the GAA. It can also assist Gaelic-games being firmly the most played and supported games." Still at this Railway Cup nonsense !! Jesus wept.
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 06/09/2018 14:25:16
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Replying To Greenfield: "So money wasn't a factor then?
Thanks for clearing that up.
This current squad of once in a generation elite athletes were just really unlucky to arrive on the scene at the same time as the GAA's investment in Dublin GAA allied to the other advantages would be expected to mature and bear fruit. Only for that their achievements would be getting all of the respect they deserve.
Pesky co-incidences ruining everything." Am I right in saying a long and heathly Meath sponsorship ended around the same time Boylan left the Meath job?! And started around 1991 when Meath were already very successful?! Big sponsorship deals only happen to counties who have their house in order and are being successful. AIG would be nowhere near Dublin if the team weren't successful beforehand. The money doesn't make a county team good; the county team has to be good in the first place. In terms of other funding, it's clear very little of this goes into preparing the Senior team, it's a coaching and games development grant to be used within a city of 1.4 million people. Yes it's a larger slice of the pot but trying to compare what Dublin get to a county with say 50000 or 60000 people is crazy. Of course the games development grants are going to be bigger in Dublin. The real comfort blanket the Senior team have is the AIG deal but if Meath and the others can sort out their games development then large sponsorship deals will come back. The counties wo are ironically most comfortable are Kerry (Big Backers) and Tyrone with their Club Tyrone support, but this is never mentioned.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 06/09/2018 14:46:12
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