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I think McKenna is correct to an extent. I can't find fault with Mckennas arguments, all backed up with facts, something his opponents are failing to do. They retort to the 'but sure what about Kerry in the 80s' The infographic doing the rounds on twitter recently is astounding. Kerrys side from the 80s only started 18 different players in all those finals...the Dubs only have 3 from their original final. Another stat I saw today was that 9 of the starting 15 were under 25 in sundays final. That's two thirds of their team still to come into their prime. Brian Howard and Eoin Murchan were unlikely to have been heard of outside of Dublin this time last year.
Lets look at the calibre of player Dublin has lost over the last few years too. Rory O'Carroll, Diarmuid Connolly and Bernard Brogan are just some that have departed the scene. Michael Fitzsimons and Cian O'Sullivan were All stars last year, neither gave 70 minutes in the final. The argument coming from Dublin is that it's a once in a generation team but looking at that it would suggest that it's more than a once in a generation team. To me there are three teams so far. The Brogans and Flynns, the rocks and then the Howards.
I saw something on twitter about a fella from carlow moving clubs to play for a side in Dublin just so he could play for their under 21s. I don't know how true that is but can someone clarify that?
However the Dubs are not to blame entirely. The GAA and ourselves as a nation have played our part in it. For years we all said the GAA needed a strong Dublin. No one passed a blind bit of heed on the funding that was thrown their way and this is what we have created as a result. As a nation we allowed for it to happen. Also it may sound mad but government policy has had a massive influence on Dublin success and I'm not talking about Bertie Aherns love of the Dubs. The neglect of rural Ireland and the continued focus on bringing jobs to Dublin rather than throughout the island has had a detrimental effect on GAA. Most counties sides have players based in Dublin or Belfast, these lads can only train with the rest of the squad collectively twice a week and even then it's a struggle. It's a two hour trip both ways for a lad coming from Dublin or Belfast to Enniskillen. Not everyone is going to buy into this, you're not going to recover right driving two afters after a hard session. You wont be well rested either. The Dubs have the luxury of going across town.
Anyway congrats to the Dubs, I know if i were in their shoes i'd be delighted too.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 05/09/2018 14:08:58
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Replying To Bosco98: "I suggest that we re-visit that question in approx 5 years time. Hurling is behind Football in Dublin, but there's no doubt that it's catching up, and that there's massive work being done at under-age level" Are you sure,five years,not a hope.
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 779 - 05/09/2018 14:16:30
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It's not Dublin GAA's fault that they were handed what they were handed. Any other county would have gladly accepted the same bounty. That is unless the Dublin GAA went and made overtures to the powers that be to get the money rather than be handed it without any delegation.
You definitely can't blame the players as they are not making executive decisions, they are just training and doing what they are told.
Ultimately, history will judge the current Dublin success, either as an incredible purple patch in their history and the GAA's history, or as an ongoing success akin to Celtic in the SPL.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 05/09/2018 14:18:34
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No it's not false or tarnished. They are the best team. The playing field is not level but what sport is? You are always going to have bigger teams and the so called "lesser teams". Mayo have a huge advantage over Leitrim for example. Kerry have a free rein in Munster etc....
Mayo spent over 1.5 million on our county teams in 2017. As a club memeber I have seen the breakdown and the cost of tranport and accomodation is crazy. Plus the cost of players up and down for training. This is one area where Dublin save. They don't have to fork out for hotels in peak summer months.
We (every club in mayo) are also paying back the loan repayments on MacHale Park which ok came about many will say by crazy decisions at board level but Dublin have never had the expense to develop their own county ground because they use Croke Park. So those are two main advantages that Dublin have from my point of view but they are not advantages that can be wiped out. They are also not the fault of Dublin so its a catch 22.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 05/09/2018 14:46:31
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Replying To avonali: "I think its important to point out in the context of a debate about Dublin's perceived advantages that our underage teams have not had much success recently.
Also, while I acknowledge that a lot of kids in Dublin play football, hurling and camogie, GAA doesn't have the widespread appeal that it has in other counties. Drive through Dublin housing estates and you'll see some flags and bunting, particularly in areas where there is a club in the vicinity. Drive through Mayo or any other county when they're involved in Championship football and you'll see flags in nearly every house.
I think it was interesting that while Tyrone had 30,000 fans out to welcome home their team, only 4-5000 turned up in Smithfield. So, yes while Dublin has a huge population in comparison to other counties our perceived advantage in this regard is not necessarily commensurate. Also, if people ado the research they will see that grant funding per capita has dropped in Dublin and that other counties receive more per registered player." Researched well and truly.. one year (2017) out of TEN Dublins grant funding dropped back to the chasing bunch probably down to the likes of McKenna embarrassing gov/gaa officialdom, before that it was multiples of other counties.
Only 4-5000 turning up along with Dublins relatively poor away support this year is surly only going to get worse as the apathy grows with the lack of competition to Dublins dominance caused by these advantages??
This is why i cant understand Dubs not agreeing with McKenna, this brilliant team could well be as successful competing without all this financial doping, who knows? But the rest would not be as far behind making the annual ritual of collecting Leinster cups worth celebrating again because in another few year collecting Sam every year will seem just as mundane..
Also if your underage lacks success despite all this money then really you should be demanding answers and maybe Dublin co. board are not the brilliant hard working board that all counties should aspire to after all...
cuttothebone (Kildare) - Posts: 163 - 05/09/2018 14:50:51
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Replying To gotmilk: "I think McKenna is correct to an extent. I can't find fault with Mckennas arguments, all backed up with facts, something his opponents are failing to do. They retort to the 'but sure what about Kerry in the 80s' The infographic doing the rounds on twitter recently is astounding. Kerrys side from the 80s only started 18 different players in all those finals...the Dubs only have 3 from their original final. Another stat I saw today was that 9 of the starting 15 were under 25 in sundays final. That's two thirds of their team still to come into their prime. Brian Howard and Eoin Murchan were unlikely to have been heard of outside of Dublin this time last year.
Lets look at the calibre of player Dublin has lost over the last few years too. Rory O'Carroll, Diarmuid Connolly and Bernard Brogan are just some that have departed the scene. Michael Fitzsimons and Cian O'Sullivan were All stars last year, neither gave 70 minutes in the final. The argument coming from Dublin is that it's a once in a generation team but looking at that it would suggest that it's more than a once in a generation team. To me there are three teams so far. The Brogans and Flynns, the rocks and then the Howards.
I saw something on twitter about a fella from carlow moving clubs to play for a side in Dublin just so he could play for their under 21s. I don't know how true that is but can someone clarify that?
However the Dubs are not to blame entirely. The GAA and ourselves as a nation have played our part in it. For years we all said the GAA needed a strong Dublin. No one passed a blind bit of heed on the funding that was thrown their way and this is what we have created as a result. As a nation we allowed for it to happen. Also it may sound mad but government policy has had a massive influence on Dublin success and I'm not talking about Bertie Aherns love of the Dubs. The neglect of rural Ireland and the continued focus on bringing jobs to Dublin rather than throughout the island has had a detrimental effect on GAA. Most counties sides have players based in Dublin or Belfast, these lads can only train with the rest of the squad collectively twice a week and even then it's a struggle. It's a two hour trip both ways for a lad coming from Dublin or Belfast to Enniskillen. Not everyone is going to buy into this, you're not going to recover right driving two afters after a hard session. You wont be well rested either. The Dubs have the luxury of going across town.
Anyway congrats to the Dubs, I know if i were in their shoes i'd be delighted too." Using Twitter for information is foolish in the extreme.
2011 team
Stephen Cluxton
Michael Fitzsimons
Rory O'Carroll
Cian O'Sullivan
James McCarthy
Ger Brennan
Kevin Nolan
Denis Bastick
Michael Darragh MacAuley
Paul Flynn
Barry Cahill
Bryan Cullen
Alan Brogan
Diarmuid Connolly
Bernard Brogan
Substitutes:
Eoghan O'Gara
Philly McMahon
Kevin McManamon
Eamonn Fennell
10 current players played in 2011. Not 3. Don't believe everything you read!
Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 05/09/2018 14:51:42
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Dublins success is not false, tarnished, bought or anything else. As others have said I do believe there is an imbalance in the funding operated at Games Development over the last 15 years and it is absolutely a factor in Dublins current success. How much of a factor, who can say. How do you measure such a factor exactly.
For all the valid arguments MacKenna raises, he is also there to sell papers. He's been banging this drum for quite some time and its no coincidence that he's produced 2 articles in the space of 48 hours on the exact same thing to maximise his exposure right now. Its controversial so it works. Others have disputed his figures which he has never provided an adequate response on, not in my view anyway. His base argument is correct though, there has been an unfair distribution of the games development funding.
I do find it disingenuous for him to label it Financial Doping. This insinuates cheating. He is more or less copying and pasting his original piece on this from 2 years ago to his latest articles yet funding numbers have changed (to an extent) even though Dublins success hasn't. He has concentrated solely on these monies and yet he's never tackled all the money issues in the GAA such as payments to managers, players or funding from outside parties. To me it smacks of someone with an agenda. I know he'd say its just the facts, but its not presenting ALL the facts nor the context in which some exist.
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 05/09/2018 14:58:19
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I think two things need to be considered. If finances make great teams then how much would it take to make AI champs out of Laois or Meath for example? What is the threshold at which point you say money is not working? If population is the secret then surely the only way to address this fairly would be to fragment the counties so that their pooulation pick is the same as that of Leitrim. The key to Dublin's success is the amount of Paddy Christies that they have managed to on-board to work voluntarily and tirelessly with underage teams. Paddy trained 4 nights a week with the Dubs and spent the rest of his time coaching Ballymun Kickhams producing inter county stars as a result. He didn't have huge resources or a large population. He had a few messers from the flats training on fields in Ballymun strewn with broken glass in the early days. This club has produced the likes of Dean Rock, Philly McMahon and John Small. We need more Paddy Christies.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 05/09/2018 15:00:24
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Not been smart but at what age do you become a registered player? Are all the kids in nurseries counted as registered players?
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 05/09/2018 15:01:25
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Replying To tearintom: "Fair play to you for bringing it up, its something that shouldnt be spoken about in many areas
I look at it differently.
Its every counties responsibility to make the best of the hand thats dealt them and make the most of what they have and Dublin are doing this far better than anyone and everyone else.
I agree with every single word Mc Kenna writes in regards to the unfairness and the disparity of how Dublin are treated versus the rest, i find the disparity genuinely disgusting to be honest.
But where i disagree is that it should not be a slight on what Dublin have achieved on the pitch or that it should even be discussed as a Dublin issue, i seperate the team and the players from the issue at hand.
I have huge issues, huge issues with that the GAA are doing here in regards to funding and the disparity, it disgusts me but i have no issue whatsoever with what Dublin do with it, i would expect my own county to do the same if its handed to them.
But i genuinely dispair at fellow Gaels who are not appalled by it to be honest, i mean if ever an approach went against the very ethos of what the GAA should be about this is it.
But as regards to what Dublin do on the pitch with whats given to them, not demanded, given, i say hand on heart fair play to them and admire them for it.
Dublin should hold their heads high imho for what they do with what theyre given but also in my opinion the powers that be should hang their heads in shame for whats going on, again just my own humble opinion." Its every counties responsibility to make the best of the hand thats dealt them and make the most of what they have and Dublin are doing this far better than anyone and everyone else.
Well that's simply not true. It is up to the GAA to ensure equality of distribution in funding as far as possible. You cannot expect a fair outcome when one county receives a multiple of what another gets and then tell them "deal with it".
Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 05/09/2018 15:05:43
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Replying To cityman73: "Are you sure,five years,not a hope." In 5 years, I'd expect to see some success at under-age level, which will hold out the promise of senior success
Bosco98 (Galway) - Posts: 127 - 05/09/2018 15:09:32
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Thank the Lord for Ewan McKenna, he's willing to say the unpopular thing, and always backs it up with facts, evidence and logic. I agree with him about the Dublin debacle, there is a crisis looming if the GAA don't sort this mess out. Fast.
Cavan_Shambles (Cavan) - Posts: 575 - 05/09/2018 15:13:36
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Replying To keithlemon: "Dublins success is not false, tarnished, bought or anything else. As others have said I do believe there is an imbalance in the funding operated at Games Development over the last 15 years and it is absolutely a factor in Dublins current success. How much of a factor, who can say. How do you measure such a factor exactly.
For all the valid arguments MacKenna raises, he is also there to sell papers. He's been banging this drum for quite some time and its no coincidence that he's produced 2 articles in the space of 48 hours on the exact same thing to maximise his exposure right now. Its controversial so it works. Others have disputed his figures which he has never provided an adequate response on, not in my view anyway. His base argument is correct though, there has been an unfair distribution of the games development funding.
I do find it disingenuous for him to label it Financial Doping. This insinuates cheating. He is more or less copying and pasting his original piece on this from 2 years ago to his latest articles yet funding numbers have changed (to an extent) even though Dublins success hasn't. He has concentrated solely on these monies and yet he's never tackled all the money issues in the GAA such as payments to managers, players or funding from outside parties. To me it smacks of someone with an agenda. I know he'd say its just the facts, but its not presenting ALL the facts nor the context in which some exist." Man I tried to say something very similar earlier
Unfortunately Ewan can say what he wants and it gets printed.. copy, paste, copy, paste
You try to counter that on here and it gets censored
??
Ah well thankfully you summed up my own effort
You have it well sussed.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 05/09/2018 15:27:29
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by mckennas logic, is it not as weighted in favour of say Mayo/Galway in Connacht ahead of say Leitrim or Sligo?
If winning a connacht is the height of Leitrim's ambition, but their chances are hugely stifled as opposed to say Mayo/Galway by means of population, money and sponsorship.....is this not a smaller version of the same thing?
Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 05/09/2018 15:30:32
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "by mckennas logic, is it not as weighted in favour of say Mayo/Galway in Connacht ahead of say Leitrim or Sligo?
If winning a connacht is the height of Leitrim's ambition, but their chances are hugely stifled as opposed to say Mayo/Galway by means of population, money and sponsorship.....is this not a smaller version of the same thing?" Saying that doesn't get you noticed on Twitter
You can't build a career on that Liamo...
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 05/09/2018 15:47:53
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Not been smart but at what age do you become a registered player? Are all the kids in nurseries counted as registered players?
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 05/09/2018 15:49:48
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Replying To Jackeen: "Using Twitter for information is foolish in the extreme.
2011 team
Stephen Cluxton
Michael Fitzsimons
Rory O'Carroll
Cian O'Sullivan
James McCarthy
Ger Brennan
Kevin Nolan
Denis Bastick
Michael Darragh MacAuley
Paul Flynn
Barry Cahill
Bryan Cullen
Alan Brogan
Diarmuid Connolly
Bernard Brogan
Substitutes:
Eoghan O'Gara
Philly McMahon
Kevin McManamon
Eamonn Fennell
10 current players played in 2011. Not 3. Don't believe everything you read!" Look at the starting 15. Perhaps I didn't state that.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 05/09/2018 16:03:17
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "by mckennas logic, is it not as weighted in favour of say Mayo/Galway in Connacht ahead of say Leitrim or Sligo?
If winning a connacht is the height of Leitrim's ambition, but their chances are hugely stifled as opposed to say Mayo/Galway by means of population, money and sponsorship.....is this not a smaller version of the same thing?" I can see your argument. A question for yourself and the numerous Dubs here.
Do you think you receive to much in comparison to other counties?
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 05/09/2018 16:06:37
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Can the GAA not put a cap on the amount of sponsorship given to a county in a given year? whatever about the amount of money given by the GAA the sponsorship is the real money spinner. either that or ensure all sponsorship goes through the GAA. Pool it all together and distribute evenly throughout the country per county GAA player in the country. that way each county will receive the exact same amount of sponsorship money. it mightn't be the solution but its a start.
One other point i want to make and its been made a million times already is that money doesn't mean everything. in fact what happens to young ones (ie underage players on county) when everything is handed to them is they get spoilt!! its happening to young lads over in England in the premier league, 15 year olds join Chelsea get 4,5000 a week and before long they're ruined because they never had to work for anything. now underage development squads are on a much smaller scale however the same principles apply. I'm not saying this is the case in Dublin but if young lads are getting recognition early on, getting all the best gear and treatment etc handed to them without any work then they won't appreciate it. it could end up being counter productive to what the GAA or Dublin are trying to achieve.
disclaimer: my opinion is made on what i hear is going on.
theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 05/09/2018 16:10:42
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Replying To gotmilk: "Look at the starting 15. Perhaps I didn't state that." Does it matter? They all played!
Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 05/09/2018 16:14:45
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