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Monaghan Advances And Kerry Is Out !

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With the Monaghan v Kerry match drawn (and Roscommon losing to all 3 opponents), choosing who would advance between Monaghan or Kerry came down to who would get the better result against Galway. Result - Kerry goes down to a fighting Galway while Monaghan steamrolls over a lissless Galway. How can this be fair ? - At least in the Qualifiers, no team goes home after winning its match. Would it not be better if 6 winners from Qualifier Rd 3 and 2 unbeaten Prov Champs (after a Playoff Rd) advanced to the re-instated AI KO QFs instead ? Who agrees ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 05/08/2018 13:52:25 2129347 Link
Replying To omahant: "With the Monaghan v Kerry match drawn (and Roscommon losing to all 3 opponents), choosing who would advance between Monaghan or Kerry came down to who would get the better result against Galway. Result - Kerry goes down to a fighting Galway while Monaghan steamrolls over a lissless Galway. How can this be fair ? - At least in the Qualifiers, no team goes home after winning its match. Would it not be better if 6 winners from Qualifier Rd 3 and 2 unbeaten Prov Champs (after a Playoff Rd) advanced to the re-instated AI KO QFs instead ? Who agrees ?" It's not fair, and Galway's approach to yesterday's game was shameful. But you'll get plenty on here so happy to see Kerry gone that they'll say they blew it in Croker and Clones. Very very few will actually answer your valid question. cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5017 - 05/08/2018 14:42:20 2129362 Link
everyone said that monaghan blew it in clones as it turns out we didnt get beaten in clones and that 1 point put us top of the group small teams blow it big teams are just not developed yet ye right fact is kerry have no backs and up front there a bit like ourselves a one trick pony muineachain abu prideof85 (Monaghan) - Posts: 851 - 05/08/2018 14:52:33 2129368 Link
Replying To cavanman47: "It's not fair, and Galway's approach to yesterday's game was shameful. But you'll get plenty on here so happy to see Kerry gone that they'll say they blew it in Croker and Clones. Very very few will actually answer your valid question." I'll have a go at answering it. Each team had 3 games in the Super 8s, with the possibility of getting a maximum of 6 points Monaghan got 5, Galway got 4 and Kerry 3 The first game and a half Kerry were rubbish, the last game they played was meaningless for their opponents, and needed the help a sending off to win it. The day's of Kerry (or anyone else) sneaking into a final are over. You're going to have to earn it and this year they didn't, because they weren't good enough over the 3 mathes. This is the idea of a league type competition, the best team's progress, league table never lies etc etc. We beat Galway by 8 points yesterday and already there are those putting a question mark over it, saying they never tried. We would have beaten them regardless IMO. They are a good team, but they are not the great team everyone thinks, easy enough for a top team to work out and counter. You can have sympathy for poor Kerry all you want, but to do so belies the facts and is a hint begrudging to us. Kerry folk are not whinging about it, they know. mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 05/08/2018 15:14:11 2129379 Link
Replying To cavanman47: "It's not fair, and Galway's approach to yesterday's game was shameful. But you'll get plenty on here so happy to see Kerry gone that they'll say they blew it in Croker and Clones. Very very few will actually answer your valid question." Be fair. Who knows about our approach but only those close to the Galway set up. Credit Monaghan. As for us we did not become world beaters overnight nor did we become a poor side overnight. Still top 4 which is progress for a young squad. kiloughter (Galway) - Posts: 1947 - 05/08/2018 15:19:00 2129381 Link
Galway has plenty to play for. Avoiding Dublin in the semifinals would've made a significant difference to their chances of winning the competition. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 05/08/2018 15:23:59 2129385 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Galway has plenty to play for. Avoiding Dublin in the semifinals would've made a significant difference to their chances of winning the competition." Best point made since yesterday. People need to realise Monaghan are a good seasoned team. No excuses from us but we have not become a bad team overnight. As can be seen Galway folk have totally acknowledged the achievement by Monaghan and yesterday is about them. kiloughter (Galway) - Posts: 1947 - 05/08/2018 15:41:25 2129389 Link
Replying To mhunicean_abu: "I'll have a go at answering it. Each team had 3 games in the Super 8s, with the possibility of getting a maximum of 6 points Monaghan got 5, Galway got 4 and Kerry 3 The first game and a half Kerry were rubbish, the last game they played was meaningless for their opponents, and needed the help a sending off to win it. The day's of Kerry (or anyone else) sneaking into a final are over. You're going to have to earn it and this year they didn't, because they weren't good enough over the 3 mathes. This is the idea of a league type competition, the best team's progress, league table never lies etc etc. We beat Galway by 8 points yesterday and already there are those putting a question mark over it, saying they never tried. We would have beaten them regardless IMO. They are a good team, but they are not the great team everyone thinks, easy enough for a top team to work out and counter. You can have sympathy for poor Kerry all you want, but to do so belies the facts and is a hint begrudging to us. Kerry folk are not whinging about it, they know." As a born Corkman, I have no sympathy for Kerry and begruding Mona never came close to consideration. Regardless of who benefited and who lost out, my question was should any team benefit from the random sequence of group fixtures. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 05/08/2018 17:31:28 2129463 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Galway has plenty to play for. Avoiding Dublin in the semifinals would've made a significant difference to their chances of winning the competition." Talking to other Irish in US, they would agree with you that avoiding Dubs before Final makes a difference. I don't get it - play Dubs in SF and other in Final, or vice versa - to me it's the same load and a red herring. Nobody picked up on my gaff above - of course Kildare is the big group loser (not Rosc). I am expoiting a round robin flaw here - although mascarading as a fair symmetric 3-match schedule, Galway had different needs v Kerry and v Mona, and therefore it's so unbalanced - nobody could successfully use this argument against Shara, an inherently randomic design. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 05/08/2018 17:45:04 2129480 Link
There is not one kerry man or woman that I have spoken to complaining about our exit. We got exactly what we deserved, and honestly had no business going any further this year anyway. There is a strange sense of relief today, and a renewed sense of hope for the future. Monaghan advanced because they were the best team over three games and I wish them well for the rest of their championship. I hope they make the final now. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 05/08/2018 17:54:44 2129492 Link
Replying To omahant: "Talking to other Irish in US, they would agree with you that avoiding Dubs before Final makes a difference. I don't get it - play Dubs in SF and other in Final, or vice versa - to me it's the same load and a red herring. Nobody picked up on my gaff above - of course Kildare is the big group loser (not Rosc). I am expoiting a round robin flaw here - although mascarading as a fair symmetric 3-match schedule, Galway had different needs v Kerry and v Mona, and therefore it's so unbalanced - nobody could successfully use this argument against Shara, an inherently randomic design." You're general overview of the layout is correct, but this year it has no relevance as the four best teams won out this year. Kerry lost out because of their first two performances not the last round of matches. mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 05/08/2018 17:59:16 2129500 Link
Replying To omahant: "With the Monaghan v Kerry match drawn (and Roscommon losing to all 3 opponents), choosing who would advance between Monaghan or Kerry came down to who would get the better result against Galway. Result - Kerry goes down to a fighting Galway while Monaghan steamrolls over a lissless Galway. How can this be fair ? - At least in the Qualifiers, no team goes home after winning its match. Would it not be better if 6 winners from Qualifier Rd 3 and 2 unbeaten Prov Champs (after a Playoff Rd) advanced to the re-instated AI KO QFs instead ? Who agrees ?" Wrong . Monaghan took Galway apart . It had nothing to do with Galway being listless . Galway scored the first point . After that Monaghan were physically and mentally stronger, tactically better and much the more complete team . That''s why they won . Greengrass (Louth) - Posts: 6031 - 05/08/2018 18:12:32 2129517 Link
Replying To omahant: "Talking to other Irish in US, they would agree with you that avoiding Dubs before Final makes a difference. I don't get it - play Dubs in SF and other in Final, or vice versa - to me it's the same load and a red herring. Nobody picked up on my gaff above - of course Kildare is the big group loser (not Rosc). I am expoiting a round robin flaw here - although mascarading as a fair symmetric 3-match schedule, Galway had different needs v Kerry and v Mona, and therefore it's so unbalanced - nobody could successfully use this argument against Shara, an inherently randomic design." Dublin wouldn't be guaranteed the make a final though. So there's a chance you avoid them altogether. Let's say Galway, Monaghan and Tyrone we're all 50/50 against each other and all had a 20% chance to beat Dublin. The probability for each of winning overall would be Dublin 64%, Monaghan and Tyrone 13% and Galway 10%. Galway have less chance of winning overall despite equally as good as Tyrone and Monaghan in my hypothetical scenario. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 05/08/2018 18:35:21 2129544 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Dublin wouldn't be guaranteed the make a final though. So there's a chance you avoid them altogether. Let's say Galway, Monaghan and Tyrone we're all 50/50 against each other and all had a 20% chance to beat Dublin. The probability for each of winning overall would be Dublin 64%, Monaghan and Tyrone 13% and Galway 10%. Galway have less chance of winning overall despite equally as good as Tyrone and Monaghan in my hypothetical scenario." I think you're getting bogged down in technicalities there with percentages. Plenty of teams benefit in leagues by playing teams with nothing to gain or lose in games towards the end of the league. If Kerry were good enough they'd have beaten Monaghan and/or Galway. The best two teams progressed. GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7364 - 05/08/2018 19:36:18 2129597 Link
Replying To GreenandRed: "I think you're getting bogged down in technicalities there with percentages. Plenty of teams benefit in leagues by playing teams with nothing to gain or lose in games towards the end of the league. If Kerry were good enough they'd have beaten Monaghan and/or Galway. The best two teams progressed." I was just demonstrating to Omahant that the game made a difference to Galway. It did. I agree the 2 best teams went through from the group. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4241 - 05/08/2018 19:45:36 2129599 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "I was just demonstrating to Omahant that the game made a difference to Galway. It did. I agree the 2 best teams went through from the group." Wham, that's a great point in your example - Galway improves its AI title chance to 13% by avoiding Dubs in SF (and 20% avoidance potential in Final as well), v 10% by certainly playing them in that SF - howver, is this intelligence known to motivate a team toward victory in the 3rd group match :) ? I never thought that through before - but you make it crystal clear - puts the soccer World Cup group shuffle in a similar light for me as well - thank you. Btw, here's another beauty from May 2007..... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/eng_prem/6627803.stm Should a ribbon be put on West Ham's gift as well ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2621 - 06/08/2018 00:18:55 2129782 Link
It is fair. As in everyone knew where they stood at the start of the Super 8s and knew what type of permutations may be in play on the last day. Kerry didn't win either of their first 2 games, once that happened their qualification was going to be out of their own hands. The rules were clear from the outset so it was fair. Whether, overall, it's a good system is another debate. MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13718 - 06/08/2018 13:46:25 2130008 Link
Result - Kerry goes down to a fighting Galway while Monaghan steamrolls over a lissless Galway. The final day fixtures also meant that Kerry were playing against a team who were already out of the AI series. Hypothetically speaking, had Galway won the match in Salthill then who out of Kerry/Monaghan to advance would have been decided on point difference and then you could turn the argument and say that it was unfair that Kerry got to play a team who were already out with a better chance of then raking up a high score to pip Monaghan. Was a hard game for Galway to approach knowing they were already in the AI semi regardless of the outcome - the only factor being deciding who they wanted to meet in the semi. Canavan made a valid point before the game that 2 weeks ago Galway would have been in a position where they knew if they were to lose the match they were playing Dublin. At that point they could have made a decision that it was better knowing you had Dublin to play in 3 weeks time than winning the game then having only a week to prepare for either Donegal or Tyrone. And also did you go out and play for the win knowing that Monaghan were going to come down fired up and you end up picking up injuries or suspensions and having exerted more energy and maybe still lose. As Canavan said it was a unique position for a GAA manger to find himself in knowing you were already in an AI semi before you play your final qualifier game. Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 06/08/2018 14:08:02 2130025 Link
Kerry didnt deserve to go through. We blew it in the first game against Galway. I was disappointed by Galways approach or lack of intent but regardless we shouldn't have been relying on others to bail us out. Dublin will walk the remaining games and they'll never have had it as easy. westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 06/08/2018 14:29:20 2130035 Link
James odonoghue failed to take a last minute chance to point in Clones, and that ultimately cost Kerry. Eddie the Exile (Monaghan) - Posts: 1064 - 06/08/2018 14:51:44 2130046 Link