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Replying To Ban: "I've just laid out English Football in the same way which you think is an acceptable competition structure/format.
If the GAA have it right then they have it very wrong. Been following English Football have a long time now and the competition format is never discussed.
I guess I'm just trying to highlight that competitions in parallel, with the Primary one being Tiered in league format (top 4 sides in top league go into Al-Ireland Semi-final), and the Provincial Championships acting as the FA Cup could work in the GAA. Most people say these days the league is better than the championship. Why not make it the flagship event?" In fairness I haven't stated what I believe to be an acceptable format, all I've said is that I wouldn't like to see the championship (the cup competition if you like) tiered for reasons I've outlined in previous posts.
Now if you want to make the NFL the primary competition then fine, that's your opinion, I don't nesessarily agree with you but I think we should all be open to suggestion. I will say that the league does throw up some cracking games and certainly could do with taking a more prominent role in our games.
People have suggested that it could be run along side the championship in the summer, now I like this idea but I haven't sat down and done the maths as to whether or not it could work. Are there enough weekends and venues in the summer to complete all fixures? (taking into account the Hurling fixtures aswell) Would it cause much damage to club football? Do intercounty teams actually want it? Do fans want it? Does the Gaa want it? Do the broadcasters want it?
I can't answer any of those questions to be perfectly honest.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/06/2018 16:41:42
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Replying To JohnnySquares: "I might be misinterpreting but are you suggesting for the 'Super 12' that only 2 of the 12 are eliminated and in 2 of the groups, all 3 teams qualify? Surely there's a better way of narrowing 12 teams down to 10" I noticed that myself which led me to my adjustment in the following post - Super 15 / Other 17 = better ?
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 26/06/2018 17:11:07
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Replying To Whammo86: "It's not snobbery.
I actually think there's room for hurling to change their structures too to enhance the game in weaker counties.
The Ulster championship being removed from the All Ireland really hurt the game up north. I wouldn't want similar to happen in football." For the last sixty or more years I have been listening to claims by GAA Authorities that they were going to do this, that and the other to improve/enhance hurling in the weaker counties and to be honest it has not made a blind bit of difference. If Horan achieves his aim and oversees the introduction of tiers in football the results will, at best, be the same but could be disastrous with most of our footballers turning away from their county teams to spend their summers playing football overseas or, more likely, concentrating on developing their careers and enhancing family life.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 26/06/2018 17:39:49
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i would make the league the primary championship and after the league have knockout which involves the top 4 in div 2, 3 in div 2 and 3 and the top 2 in div 4. split them into 4 groups of 3 and top 2 progress from each group, straight knockout from quarter finals on. would give division 4 teams a much bigger chance of playing late on in the all Ireland's while still playing at their own level
NaomhNaille (Donegal) - Posts: 124 - 26/06/2018 18:03:40
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Replying To Htaem: "But sure look I never said I was against trying new things, I'm all for reviewing the football championship and restructuring as long as it includes all teams, but I'm against a tiered football championship.
I'll give you a couple of reasons why I'm against tiers in football:
1. It wouldn't be treated seriously by the Gaa, you just need to look at the lower tiers of the Hurling championship to see this. My own county was involved in a shambles of a Christy Ring final only a couple of years ago where neither the Croke Park scoreboard nor the broadcaster (TG4) even knew what the final score was! Also the Tommy Murphy cup wasn't exactly a great success.
2. The media would give it very little coverage, this is patently obvious, if you're not playing in the top tier, you don't matter, simple as that. You mention the good recent wins by the Waterford and Leitrim footballers, and you're correct, they were good wins, but if they were achieved outside of the top tier, far less people would have heard or even cared about those wins. The Hurling championship has been excellent this year, I could talk about any number of games, but I couldn't tell you the result of any game outside of the top tier. You may say that this is ignorance on my behalf and you may have a point but fact of the matter is, if they were getting proper mainstream media attention, I would know about them.
3. Inter-county teams don't want it. The GPA have done their homework on this one, there is no appetite for a tiered football championship so why force them into it? I could see it doing nothing but damage to the game in those counties. Teams find it hard enough to hold on to lads for the summer, but I'd imagine even less would hang around to play if they weren't in the top tier.
4. Fans don't seem to want it, even at the lower tier Hurling finals you a very empty looking Croke Park.
5. We already have a tiered competition, we have the Leagues, they allow teams to play at roughly their own level so why introduce a tiered championship aswell and take away the opportunity to play against the big boys?
So for the reasons outlined above I just don't agree with a tiered championship. But again I am open to suggestion on changing the structure, even radically so, just as long as it includes everybody." Point 4 is a red herring with respect to your reference to hurling. All of the lower tier hurling participants are football counties who wouldn't ever attract fans to any hurling game.
I cannot think of anything more demoralising and more likely to drive county players away from the game than to get routinely hammered by strong football counties. If you were in Croke Park last Saturday you would have seen how much winning the Meagher/Rackard/ Ring Cups meant to the successful teams and how crestfallen were the losers in each case. Maybe some football counties have delusions of grandeur because they won a provincial or All Ireland 60 or more years ago. If they can get over that hump and deal with reality they can learn to be as passionate about winning a lower tier competition as the lower tier hurling counties are
PoolSturgeon (Galway) - Posts: 1904 - 26/06/2018 18:21:19
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The provincial championships do not have to be scrapped in a tiered structure. We've seen this in hurling. We've also seen an appetite for the retention of provincial championships.
Connaught and Munster can both operate as groups of 4 each. Leinster and Ulster can both operate as 2 groups or 4 each.
All other counties outside the 24 teams in the 6 provincial groups would simply have to enter a McDonagh Cup type competition. Have promotion and relegation between the provincial and second tier championship. Also offer the tier 2 winner a route to join the All-Ireland series.
This year (11 weeks);
1 Provincial Preliminary
2 Provincial quarter-finals
3 Provincial semi-finals & Qualifier Round 1
4 Provincial finals & Qualifier Round 2
5 Qualifier Round 3
6 Qualifier Round 4
7 Group R1
8 Group R2
9 Group R3
10 AI semi-finals
11 Final
Suggestion (11 weeks)
- 6 provincial groups of 4.
- Top 2 from each group into Final 16
- 6 3rd place teams playoff for 3 Final 16 places.
- Tier 2 winner takes 16th place in Final 16.
Suggested Provincial and All-Ireland Group stages;
1 Provincial Group R1 (6 provincial groups of 4)
2 Provincial Group R2
3 Provincial Group R3
4 Provincial semi-finals (Leinster & Ulster)
5 Provincial finals
6 AI Group R1 (4 All-Ireland groups of 4)
7 AI Group R2
8 AI Group R3
9 AI quarter-finals
10 AI semi-finals
11 AI final
legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 26/06/2018 19:06:09
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "Point 4 is a red herring with respect to your reference to hurling. All of the lower tier hurling participants are football counties who wouldn't ever attract fans to any hurling game.
I cannot think of anything more demoralising and more likely to drive county players away from the game than to get routinely hammered by strong football counties. If you were in Croke Park last Saturday you would have seen how much winning the Meagher/Rackard/ Ring Cups meant to the successful teams and how crestfallen were the losers in each case. Maybe some football counties have delusions of grandeur because they won a provincial or All Ireland 60 or more years ago. If they can get over that hump and deal with reality they can learn to be as passionate about winning a lower tier competition as the lower tier hurling counties are" I don't think it's a red herring in fairness, I understand that football is the dominant sport and therefore it's not a perfect example but it's the best reference point we have for lower tier championship finals at the minute. Also why do these lower tier finals not attract more fans even if they are football first counties, I mean the lower tiers in Hurling have been around for over a decade now and they're still attracting poor crowds, that's hardly an example of a complete success.
Now I accept that a lot of the lower tier games probably are very good and probably are very competitive and the wins probably mean a lot to the players and supporters and the loses probably are devastating etc etc Why the repeated use of the word 'probably', because I know feck all about the lower tiers, because they get feck all coverage and the exact same will happen to potential lower tier football teams, it would be madness for them to roll over and accept this.
Also to be fair, you don't have the same gaps in football as you have in Hurling, a lot more teams in football are capable of being competitive than the reverse.
Also as a matter of interest I made 5 points in that post, you only picked and focused in on it, but you can't dismiss the other 4 and also Whammo86 made a good point about tiers not actually fixing anything, this cannot be ignored either.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/06/2018 20:57:10
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "Point 4 is a red herring with respect to your reference to hurling. All of the lower tier hurling participants are football counties who wouldn't ever attract fans to any hurling game.
I cannot think of anything more demoralising and more likely to drive county players away from the game than to get routinely hammered by strong football counties. If you were in Croke Park last Saturday you would have seen how much winning the Meagher/Rackard/ Ring Cups meant to the successful teams and how crestfallen were the losers in each case. Maybe some football counties have delusions of grandeur because they won a provincial or All Ireland 60 or more years ago. If they can get over that hump and deal with reality they can learn to be as passionate about winning a lower tier competition as the lower tier hurling counties are" They're getting hammered because the current football structures ensure the strong stay strong and the weak get weaker. Putting a tiered system in place only increases the standards gap between the top and bottom. Yes weaker teams will have competitive games but in a poor standard of football.
All well for us to say how structures should be, but how do so-called weaker counties feel about it? Do they even have much influence within GAA decision making. I hate that term so-called weaker counties. No such thing. They're counties like all counties even if their football isn't as good as some. And they have the best GAA supporters in the land, not a huge amoont of them but dedicated supporters through thin and thinner. I think we need a league with two teams from Divisions 1 to 4 and then provincials and a standalone open draw All Ireland. Naive I know but the current system clearly doesn't work.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 26/06/2018 22:13:22
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Replying To legendzxix: "The provincial championships do not have to be scrapped in a tiered structure. We've seen this in hurling. We've also seen an appetite for the retention of provincial championships.
Connaught and Munster can both operate as groups of 4 each. Leinster and Ulster can both operate as 2 groups or 4 each.
All other counties outside the 24 teams in the 6 provincial groups would simply have to enter a McDonagh Cup type competition. Have promotion and relegation between the provincial and second tier championship. Also offer the tier 2 winner a route to join the All-Ireland series.
This year (11 weeks);
1 Provincial Preliminary
2 Provincial quarter-finals
3 Provincial semi-finals & Qualifier Round 1
4 Provincial finals & Qualifier Round 2
5 Qualifier Round 3
6 Qualifier Round 4
7 Group R1
8 Group R2
9 Group R3
10 AI semi-finals
11 Final
Suggestion (11 weeks)
- 6 provincial groups of 4.
- Top 2 from each group into Final 16
- 6 3rd place teams playoff for 3 Final 16 places.
- Tier 2 winner takes 16th place in Final 16.
Suggested Provincial and All-Ireland Group stages;
1 Provincial Group R1 (6 provincial groups of 4)
2 Provincial Group R2
3 Provincial Group R3
4 Provincial semi-finals (Leinster & Ulster)
5 Provincial finals
6 AI Group R1 (4 All-Ireland groups of 4)
7 AI Group R2
8 AI Group R3
9 AI quarter-finals
10 AI semi-finals
11 AI final" Yup, it works - and inclusion of group 3rds beats the 4-team dead rubber problem.
Plenty of local rivalries retained - this is essential at the lower end (e.g. Carlow probably prefers beating neighbour Laois, than Cavan).
For variety, I would probably want 'Inter-Prov' pairings between the better teams in the Last 16 and beyond.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 27/06/2018 00:56:10
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Replying To Htaem: "In fairness I haven't stated what I believe to be an acceptable format, all I've said is that I wouldn't like to see the championship (the cup competition if you like) tiered for reasons I've outlined in previous posts.
Now if you want to make the NFL the primary competition then fine, that's your opinion, I don't nesessarily agree with you but I think we should all be open to suggestion. I will say that the league does throw up some cracking games and certainly could do with taking a more prominent role in our games.
People have suggested that it could be run along side the championship in the summer, now I like this idea but I haven't sat down and done the maths as to whether or not it could work. Are there enough weekends and venues in the summer to complete all fixures? (taking into account the Hurling fixtures aswell) Would it cause much damage to club football? Do intercounty teams actually want it? Do fans want it? Does the Gaa want it? Do the broadcasters want it?
I can't answer any of those questions to be perfectly honest." Have you given these a thought - do the maths work ?
1) Keep existing two-chance structure, BUT -
Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd with 8 groups of 3 (each top 2 advance).
Prov Champs Playoff 4 and 2nd KO Qual Rd of 20.
Unbeaten Prov Champs 2 (byes) & 3rd KO Rd of 12.
AIC KO QFs, SFs and F.
2) Start with group phase like hurling -
a) 'Super 15' (NFL top 13 & recent top 2 Div 3) in
5 Inter Prov groups of 3 (each top 2 = 10 to AIC Sam KO Rd of 16).
b) 'Other 17' = Tier 2 (P OSe Cup) = 5 groups of 3 and 1 '2 legged pair'.
2 best 2nds and 6 winners to POS Cup QFs, SFs & F.
2 POS Finalists also to 'this' AIC Sam KO Rd of 16.
c) KO Provs (no change) = 4 Champs to AIC Sam KO Rd of 16 (Champs also advancing from 'a or b' above get byes to AI QFs instead).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 27/06/2018 01:20:14
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Replying To omahant: "Have you given these a thought - do the maths work ?
1) Keep existing two-chance structure, BUT -
Prov Final 8 and 1st Qual Rd with 8 groups of 3 (each top 2 advance).
Prov Champs Playoff 4 and 2nd KO Qual Rd of 20.
Unbeaten Prov Champs 2 (byes) & 3rd KO Rd of 12.
AIC KO QFs, SFs and F.
2) Start with group phase like hurling -
a) 'Super 15' (NFL top 13 & recent top 2 Div 3) in
5 Inter Prov groups of 3 (each top 2 = 10 to AIC Sam KO Rd of 16).
b) 'Other 17' = Tier 2 (P OSe Cup) = 5 groups of 3 and 1 '2 legged pair'.
2 best 2nds and 6 winners to POS Cup QFs, SFs & F.
2 POS Finalists also to 'this' AIC Sam KO Rd of 16.
c) KO Provs (no change) = 4 Champs to AIC Sam KO Rd of 16 (Champs also advancing from 'a or b' above get byes to AI QFs instead)." Look they're well thought out suggestions and fairplay for coming up with them, also I acknowledge your preference for groups of 3 rather than 4 because it does basically eliminate dead rubbers.
However I would like to see the Gaa try out a balanced All-Ireland format, by which I mean no uneven provinces or anything like that.
So basically:
- 8 groups of 4 (seeded using the leagues, but if we retain the provinvials as seperate competitions then guarantee provincial winners top seed regardless of league status).
- 3 groups games each (ideally 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral)
- Top 2 teams in each group qualify for last 16, straight KO
- If you want to introduce a second tier and try to limit the number of dead rubber group games then maybe create a 2nd tier straight KO competition, involving the 8 teams who finished 3rd in their groups. The final would be a curtain raiser for the AI final and broadcast in English to try and maximise audience and comercial potential.
Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 27/06/2018 09:30:56
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Your 8x4 is essentially the GPA idea, where each group is of relatively equal strength - with one team from each of the NFL divisions (subject to unexpected adjustment, given the Prov Champs).
A) I like this recognizable structure, but I would make one tweak to eliminate 'seeds 1 v 4' pairings.
Along with one 2 and 3 seed in each group, I would complete the groups with either a PAIR of 1 seeds OR a PAIR of 4 seeds. To avoid dead rubbers, the top 3 in each (24 in all) could advance, like the GPA proposed.
For distinction, we could call the stronger 4x4 'groups' and the other 4x4 'pools'.
In the Rd of 24 = 4 Pool 1sts host 4 Pool 3rds;
4 Pool 2nds host 4 Group 3rds; while 8 Group 1sts and 2nds get byes to your 'KO Rd of 16'.
B) To reduce games and eliminate 'uninteresting or dependent-on-other-results' 3rd group/pool matches, you could go straight to that 'Rd of 24' after 2 rd robin games (here all 32 rd robin games played would involve exactly a single 1 or 4 seed).
OR C) Revert back to the original GPA idea, but 2 matches per team (seeds 1v4 and 2v3 avoided) prior to a Rd of 24 (or 16).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 27/06/2018 18:36:13
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At least a tier or two needed in Newbridge
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 27/06/2018 18:54:13
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If anything at all takes place at Newb.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 28/06/2018 04:56:06
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Replying To Brian_Coyote: "The GAA/RTE/Sky have performed very poorly with regards to coverage of the JMcD which has provide a number of cracking games. I have said it before each of the hurling competitions should be tendered for by the TV channels, the drawback being that matches would be set for odd times so that the TV channels would have full rights during their match time.
Footballers in the weak counties wanting TV coverage, sums up their priorities. the same weaker counties don't mind that their hurlers are not getting coverage, why should one be treated differenct to the other?
As for the arguement about players not wanting to play in competitions that suit their ability/level, look at the hurling again, didn't see Kildare hurlers struggle to field a strong team in the Christy Ring this past weekend. For those football people that believe football is above this, it sums up the snobbery you hold." You can't compare hurling where only a few counties play in decent numbers to football where there is good numbers playing in virtually every county. In my experience if there is snobbery in the gaa it is in top level hurling.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 28/06/2018 07:21:50
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Replying To PoolSturgeon: "Point 4 is a red herring with respect to your reference to hurling. All of the lower tier hurling participants are football counties who wouldn't ever attract fans to any hurling game.
I cannot think of anything more demoralising and more likely to drive county players away from the game than to get routinely hammered by strong football counties. If you were in Croke Park last Saturday you would have seen how much winning the Meagher/Rackard/ Ring Cups meant to the successful teams and how crestfallen were the losers in each case. Maybe some football counties have delusions of grandeur because they won a provincial or All Ireland 60 or more years ago. If they can get over that hump and deal with reality they can learn to be as passionate about winning a lower tier competition as the lower tier hurling counties are" Surely the point is no one was in croke park to watch these games in croker last Saturday. I doubt the majority of people of counties involved even knew there counties were in the finals. Which does nothing at all to promote the game in those counties. Compare the sligo crowd at that match to the support sligo would have brought to the connacht finals over the last number of years. Different world's all together
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 28/06/2018 07:28:35
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If you look at playing 3 finals on an all ireland day as brolly and others suggested what does that actually mean.
Firstly the minor all ireland will be taken away from there big day . Secondly if you have 3 finals on the same day you are going to probably have to play the junior final at 11.30 in the morning. Not to many are going to want to stay in croker for 6 hours plus.
Tickets will be extremely limited for tier 2 and 3 finals and most likely any tickets the do receive the big counties in the tier one counties will do there best to goble up the tickets. So the tier 3 final would be played in an empty croker probably on YouTube in irish early in the morning and be completely overshadowed by the biggest game of the year. I was at a Tommy murphy cup final it is going to be the same level of disinterest as there was in that.
ros1 (Roscommon) - Posts: 1211 - 28/06/2018 07:41:28
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Replying To GreenandRed: "They're getting hammered because the current football structures ensure the strong stay strong and the weak get weaker. Putting a tiered system in place only increases the standards gap between the top and bottom. Yes weaker teams will have competitive games but in a poor standard of football.
All well for us to say how structures should be, but how do so-called weaker counties feel about it? Do they even have much influence within GAA decision making. I hate that term so-called weaker counties. No such thing. They're counties like all counties even if their football isn't as good as some. And they have the best GAA supporters in the land, not a huge amoont of them but dedicated supporters through thin and thinner. I think we need a league with two teams from Divisions 1 to 4 and then provincials and a standalone open draw All Ireland. Naive I know but the current system clearly doesn't work." I thought about a merged NFL/AIC as well, starting with 4 from each NFL div to form 2 Conferences of 16 (A & B). Each team in one Conf plays a season-long 12 of 16 from the other (div 1v4 and 2v3 avoided).
After 12 games/team, top 6 in each Conf form own half of the AIC draw, in exclusive 'non-repeat' pairings prior to AI Final.
AI QFs in 'A half' = A 1st v A 4th or 5th; and
A 2nd v A 3rd or 6th. The 'A QF winners' meet in one AI SF. The 'B half' has similar pairings.
If you wish - 7th to 10th (or to 12th) from each could form similar Tier 2 AI QFs (or a 12-team KO)..
At end of year, 'even placed' teams switch Confs for schedule variety the next yr (and top 4 avoid bottom 4; and 2nd 4 avoid 3rd 4).
Provs KO could be played stand alone.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 29/06/2018 02:59:41
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So, I've been asked to put my ideas in one place which I've done in this thread. Could you give your preferences - my various ideas include -
A) '2+6' = existing 2-stream, 4 Champs Playoff and 1st rd Quals 8x3, with 2 Front & 6 Back Door to QFs
B) 'Super 15' Inter Prov 5x3, Other 17 (5x3, 1x2) and 4 KO Provs, leading to AIC KO 16.
C) '2 Confs of 16' with 12-match reg season and 12-team AIC KO.
D) 'GPA 8x4 with a Twist' = 4x4 Strong Groups, 4x4 Less Strong Pools, top 3 from each to AIC KO 24.
I probably forgot a few others.
Please vote the 4 letters in order of choice, e.g. DCBA etc.
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 29/06/2018 03:12:56
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Replying To Ban: "I've just laid out English Football in the same way which you think is an acceptable competition structure/format.
If the GAA have it right then they have it very wrong. Been following English Football have a long time now and the competition format is never discussed.
I guess I'm just trying to highlight that competitions in parallel, with the Primary one being Tiered in league format (top 4 sides in top league go into Al-Ireland Semi-final), and the Provincial Championships acting as the FA Cup could work in the GAA. Most people say these days the league is better than the championship. Why not make it the flagship event?" I think you could have it both ways !
Have two Conferences of 16 (A & B) - each Conf with half of each NFL div.
Each team in Conf A plays those in B - BUT each team plays 12 of 16 only in the other Conf (Div 1v4 and 2v3 are avoided).
After 12 matches per team, top 6 in each Conf join 4 Prov KO Champs (played separately) advance to AIC KO Rd of 16 (Champs advancing twice get byes to AI KO QFs instead).
Tell me - what is better than this ? !
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 29/06/2018 23:03:00
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