National Forum

Tiered Football Championship Needed

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I think a McDonagh Cup type competition will work better in football. If the winners of that were joining 15 from the top tier in a Final 16, the 16th county from the second level would acquit themselves quite well.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 25/06/2018 22:16:41    2115041

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Replying To FootblockREF:  "That depends on it being properly supported. If its thrown lip service then it will fail. A lower tier football should have it final as the curtain raiser for the All Ireland final as should the Christy Ring be the game before the hurling final. Both of the minor finals should be played together as a double header ensuring that the minor counties represented get a decent ticket allocation as opposed to the insulting amount they get at present.

Televised All Stars, not the 50 second after thought clip that happens at the moment and a proper highlights package solely focusing on the lower tier.

How is the current system helping the lower counties at the moment? Waterford had a brilliant win over Wexford, Leitrim had the biggest win of recent times over Louth, when you get teams of a roughly the same level playing each other, 2 things happen, you get the occasional surprise but more importantly you get better football. Leitrim didn't go out with 15 behind the ball against Louth because they fancied their chances. I hope they go ou all guns blazing against us next weekend, but if they do, they'll lose by 15 points.

No harm to you lad, but your attitude is the one that gets no one anywhere."
But sure look I never said I was against trying new things, I'm all for reviewing the football championship and restructuring as long as it includes all teams, but I'm against a tiered football championship.

I'll give you a couple of reasons why I'm against tiers in football:

1. It wouldn't be treated seriously by the Gaa, you just need to look at the lower tiers of the Hurling championship to see this. My own county was involved in a shambles of a Christy Ring final only a couple of years ago where neither the Croke Park scoreboard nor the broadcaster (TG4) even knew what the final score was! Also the Tommy Murphy cup wasn't exactly a great success.

2. The media would give it very little coverage, this is patently obvious, if you're not playing in the top tier, you don't matter, simple as that. You mention the good recent wins by the Waterford and Leitrim footballers, and you're correct, they were good wins, but if they were achieved outside of the top tier, far less people would have heard or even cared about those wins. The Hurling championship has been excellent this year, I could talk about any number of games, but I couldn't tell you the result of any game outside of the top tier. You may say that this is ignorance on my behalf and you may have a point but fact of the matter is, if they were getting proper mainstream media attention, I would know about them.

3. Inter-county teams don't want it. The GPA have done their homework on this one, there is no appetite for a tiered football championship so why force them into it? I could see it doing nothing but damage to the game in those counties. Teams find it hard enough to hold on to lads for the summer, but I'd imagine even less would hang around to play if they weren't in the top tier.

4. Fans don't seem to want it, even at the lower tier Hurling finals you a very empty looking Croke Park.

5. We already have a tiered competition, we have the Leagues, they allow teams to play at roughly their own level so why introduce a tiered championship aswell and take away the opportunity to play against the big boys?

So for the reasons outlined above I just don't agree with a tiered championship. But again I am open to suggestion on changing the structure, even radically so, just as long as it includes everybody.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 25/06/2018 23:05:00    2115078

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Guys - there are strong arguments on both sides of the debate - let both sides win !

Current Provs (unchanged) - 4 winners to AIC KO 16.
'Super 12' (top NFL 12) - 4 'Inter Prov' groups of 3 - 2 best 3rds and top 2 each group (10 teams) to AIC KO 16.

'Other 20' play for Tier 2 (P O Se Cup) in 6x3 and 1 '2 legged' pair.
Best 2nd in 6x3 and 7 winners in POSC QFs.
2 POSC Finalists contest Tier 2 title and complete AIC KO 16 as well.

End the debate, once and for all !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 25/06/2018 23:37:20    2115104

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Maybe best to have a 'Super 15' (2 Div 3 promoted and top NFL 13) in 5 Inter Prov groups of 3 - top 2 from each advance (10 teams) join 4 Prov Champs and 2 Tier 2 Finalists.
Tier 2 - 'Other 17' - 5x3 and 1 '2 legged pair'.
2 best 2nds from 5x3 and 6 winners to POSC QFs.
2 POSC Finalists complete AI KO Rd of 16 (Prov Champs advancing twice get bye to AIC KO QFs instead).

End the debate - or produce better !

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 26/06/2018 00:19:25    2115128

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Solution is across the water - English soccer. A Tiered primary competition, with a cup to give people the chance to meet the big team. And here's the magic - they run all competitions in parallel giving teams a defined season with slots for international duty (club football)
Top 4 sides in the top league go into the All-Ireland semi finals.. Promotion and relegation in play. Probably too simple.

I'm from Westmeath. At the moment we are probably one of the better teams in the bottom third. I dont expect massive national media attention each week. I don't expect 10K at all our home matches. When the team gets better, all that gets better

Everyone wants everything. People want a competition structure based around giving a very poor team one day out against the big shot. After the event which will be a pure hammering, change is called for but then people will come back to wanting the same thing and it gives us the same outcome.

Dog chasing tails look silly

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 26/06/2018 08:46:08    2115170

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In theory a tiered championship would be great, but in reality it would never work. Firstly being from a weaker county, i can safely say, the amount of players who don't bother committing to the county side as it is - or commit but leave before the championship has increased year on year. Tell those same players they are entering a secondary competition and they won't bother with county football at all. Add to that, the support would dwindle away to nothing, as fans wouldn't bother with this either. You also have the media, who don't care about weaker teams, and will not bother covering a secondary competition. On the Sunday game the other day, Joe Brolly said "We need a tiered championship with 3 AI finals, a festival of football". So either two teams or four(depending on 2 or 3 tiered system) will get a big day out, and the rest will slog it out for no reward in a competition that no fan, player or member of the media would care about.

PK57 (Louth) - Posts: 1656 - 26/06/2018 08:54:05    2115175

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Replying To omahant:  "Guys - there are strong arguments on both sides of the debate - let both sides win !

Current Provs (unchanged) - 4 winners to AIC KO 16.
'Super 12' (top NFL 12) - 4 'Inter Prov' groups of 3 - 2 best 3rds and top 2 each group (10 teams) to AIC KO 16.

'Other 20' play for Tier 2 (P O Se Cup) in 6x3 and 1 '2 legged' pair.
Best 2nd in 6x3 and 7 winners in POSC QFs.
2 POSC Finalists contest Tier 2 title and complete AIC KO 16 as well.

End the debate, once and for all !"
I might be misinterpreting but are you suggesting for the 'Super 12' that only 2 of the 12 are eliminated and in 2 of the groups, all 3 teams qualify? Surely there's a better way of narrowing 12 teams down to 10

JohnnySquares (Cork) - Posts: 5 - 26/06/2018 10:03:46    2115202

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Replying To omahant:  "Guys - there are strong arguments on both sides of the debate - let both sides win !

Current Provs (unchanged) - 4 winners to AIC KO 16.
'Super 12' (top NFL 12) - 4 'Inter Prov' groups of 3 - 2 best 3rds and top 2 each group (10 teams) to AIC KO 16.

'Other 20' play for Tier 2 (P O Se Cup) in 6x3 and 1 '2 legged' pair.
Best 2nd in 6x3 and 7 winners in POSC QFs.
2 POSC Finalists contest Tier 2 title and complete AIC KO 16 as well.

End the debate, once and for all !"
This might work better as the winners of the tier two championship also get access to the AIC. Similar to how UEFA have reignited the EUROPA league by allowing the winner access to the Champions League, teams now feel it's worth winning as the rewards are huge. There has to be an incentive to winning the tier two title otherwise teams will not be interested.

Those arguing for doing nothing will see fewer and fewer people going to provincial championship games in the future. Look at it now with the introduction of the SUPER 8's, people will just wait for those games and ignore the provs.

Why watch teams being battered by 12-20 points when I can wait, save my money and make sure I might see at least 2-3 competetive (& less defensive football) fixtures in the Supers.

cavandub (Cavan) - Posts: 67 - 26/06/2018 10:11:17    2115208

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Replying To Htaem:  "But sure look I never said I was against trying new things, I'm all for reviewing the football championship and restructuring as long as it includes all teams, but I'm against a tiered football championship.

I'll give you a couple of reasons why I'm against tiers in football:

1. It wouldn't be treated seriously by the Gaa, you just need to look at the lower tiers of the Hurling championship to see this. My own county was involved in a shambles of a Christy Ring final only a couple of years ago where neither the Croke Park scoreboard nor the broadcaster (TG4) even knew what the final score was! Also the Tommy Murphy cup wasn't exactly a great success.

2. The media would give it very little coverage, this is patently obvious, if you're not playing in the top tier, you don't matter, simple as that. You mention the good recent wins by the Waterford and Leitrim footballers, and you're correct, they were good wins, but if they were achieved outside of the top tier, far less people would have heard or even cared about those wins. The Hurling championship has been excellent this year, I could talk about any number of games, but I couldn't tell you the result of any game outside of the top tier. You may say that this is ignorance on my behalf and you may have a point but fact of the matter is, if they were getting proper mainstream media attention, I would know about them.

3. Inter-county teams don't want it. The GPA have done their homework on this one, there is no appetite for a tiered football championship so why force them into it? I could see it doing nothing but damage to the game in those counties. Teams find it hard enough to hold on to lads for the summer, but I'd imagine even less would hang around to play if they weren't in the top tier.

4. Fans don't seem to want it, even at the lower tier Hurling finals you a very empty looking Croke Park.

5. We already have a tiered competition, we have the Leagues, they allow teams to play at roughly their own level so why introduce a tiered championship aswell and take away the opportunity to play against the big boys?

So for the reasons outlined above I just don't agree with a tiered championship. But again I am open to suggestion on changing the structure, even radically so, just as long as it includes everybody."
It's a very good post.

1 thing I'd add is that it doesn't solve any problem.

Realistically there are 2 teams right now who are within 5 points of Dublin and a further 3 to 4 or so within 10 points of Dublin.

No championship system can fix the lack of depth at the top of the game.

That's what needs to be focused on.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 26/06/2018 10:14:56    2115211

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We are already half way to a tiered system with the Super 8's.

All that is needed now is for a knockout competition to be put in place for those counties that dont make the Super 8's. That should not be beyond the wit of the huge brains that are in HQ,

MuckrossHead (Donegal) - Posts: 5028 - 26/06/2018 10:24:05    2115216

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's a very good post.

1 thing I'd add is that it doesn't solve any problem.

Realistically there are 2 teams right now who are within 5 points of Dublin and a further 3 to 4 or so within 10 points of Dublin.

No championship system can fix the lack of depth at the top of the game.

That's what needs to be focused on."
Spot on, why people think a tiered championship is the answer to our problems is beyond me. Hammerings are just a part of sport, they happen in probably every sporting competition across the world no matter what the structure.

A tiered championship is really only being talked about because the top teams want to play a higher number of competitive games amd don't want the bother of playing teams from lower divisions. Well ok, we can work towards providing more top level games, I agree with that, but under no circumstances should 16 teams (assuming the championship is split half way) be cut adrift to provide this.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/06/2018 10:46:59    2115231

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Replying To abc_123:  "
Replying To tiobraid:  "[quote=abc_123:  "10 different teams have won provincial championships in the past 10 years. 5 different teams have won the All-Ireland in that period.

What are the rest competing for....a shock win in the provincial championship? A good run in the qualifiers?

I wonder would more or less players be motivated to compete in a national competition they have a realistic chance to win and EARN a place in a higher level?

The most enjoyable matches to attend, and play in, are close competitive games, regardless of the level.

I believe Hurling is on the right track. I agree that there are issues, but the competitiveness at all levels is great to see.

It is very easy to address lack of coverage of a competitive competition....it is impossible to hide a nationally televised rout!"
10 out of 32/33 teams have won silverware? That's massive and a great reason to leave things as they are if anything!
Most leagues in any sport wouldn't have those kind of numbers.
In an ideal world you'd have a "Leicester city" winning the All Ireland every year but no sport in the world works that way."
10 teams winning provincial silverware over the course of 10 years...I am interested to know how this is a great reason to leave things as they are? Especially considering that the other 22 teams are dropping away more and more."]My point isnt that I think it should stay the same but that your logic for change doesnt add up at all. 1/3 of all counties have won major silverware in 10 years. That's unheard of in almost any other sport i'd imagine.
A tiered cship may mean more competitive games but your logic certainly doesnt stand up.

As another poster said, the tiered hurling cship isnt a full success either as they keep adding more tiers. You will always get non competitive games in every sports competition world wide. It needs to be done the correct way and some of the proposal are mad!

tiobraid (Tipperary) - Posts: 4119 - 26/06/2018 11:10:48    2115248

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Replying To carlovia:  "So far not 1 second of the McDonagh Cup has been shown on tv.

It features the hurling counties ranked 11-16 and is totally ignored
by the media which is a pity as its a great competition.

Thats the problem with Tier 2 competitions.

Plus the players dont want the football one."
The GAA/RTE/Sky have performed very poorly with regards to coverage of the JMcD which has provide a number of cracking games. I have said it before each of the hurling competitions should be tendered for by the TV channels, the drawback being that matches would be set for odd times so that the TV channels would have full rights during their match time.
Footballers in the weak counties wanting TV coverage, sums up their priorities. the same weaker counties don't mind that their hurlers are not getting coverage, why should one be treated differenct to the other?
As for the arguement about players not wanting to play in competitions that suit their ability/level, look at the hurling again, didn't see Kildare hurlers struggle to field a strong team in the Christy Ring this past weekend. For those football people that believe football is above this, it sums up the snobbery you hold.

Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 26/06/2018 11:49:51    2115276

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Replying To Brian_Coyote:  "The GAA/RTE/Sky have performed very poorly with regards to coverage of the JMcD which has provide a number of cracking games. I have said it before each of the hurling competitions should be tendered for by the TV channels, the drawback being that matches would be set for odd times so that the TV channels would have full rights during their match time.
Footballers in the weak counties wanting TV coverage, sums up their priorities. the same weaker counties don't mind that their hurlers are not getting coverage, why should one be treated differenct to the other?
As for the arguement about players not wanting to play in competitions that suit their ability/level, look at the hurling again, didn't see Kildare hurlers struggle to field a strong team in the Christy Ring this past weekend. For those football people that believe football is above this, it sums up the snobbery you hold."
Only person I seen suggesting football was above anything was you.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/06/2018 12:01:24    2115289

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Replying To MuckrossHead:  "We are already half way to a tiered system with the Super 8's.

All that is needed now is for a knockout competition to be put in place for those counties that dont make the Super 8's. That should not be beyond the wit of the huge brains that are in HQ,"
Firstly the Super 8 should expand to 16;
8 provincial finalists
8 Qualifier Round 2 winners

Secondly, it's hard to see an appetite amongst those knocked out in the qualifiers for a second championship unless the winner was guaranteed a Final 16 spot in the following year. That would reduce the number of qualifiers to 7. The GAA can figure out the appropriate minute details of that! ;-)

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7871 - 26/06/2018 12:11:08    2115297

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Replying To Htaem:  "Spot on, why people think a tiered championship is the answer to our problems is beyond me. Hammerings are just a part of sport, they happen in probably every sporting competition across the world no matter what the structure.

A tiered championship is really only being talked about because the top teams want to play a higher number of competitive games amd don't want the bother of playing teams from lower divisions. Well ok, we can work towards providing more top level games, I agree with that, but under no circumstances should 16 teams (assuming the championship is split half way) be cut adrift to provide this."
Going by your logic towards global sporting competitions, if I suggested that the Premier League be ran from Aug-Jan and then the FA from Feb-May the English, it would be an improvement?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 26/06/2018 12:58:44    2115334

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Replying To Ban:  "Going by your logic towards global sporting competitions, if I suggested that the Premier League be ran from Aug-Jan and then the FA from Feb-May the English, it would be an improvement?"
I honestly have no idea how you came up with that based upon my post.

My point when referencing global competitions was in relation to the fact that there's hammerings in all (or certainly most) competitions that I'm aware. Never mentioned the timelines of those conpetitions.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 26/06/2018 13:20:59    2115360

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Replying To MuckrossHead:  "We are already half way to a tiered system with the Super 8's.

All that is needed now is for a knockout competition to be put in place for those counties that dont make the Super 8's. That should not be beyond the wit of the huge brains that are in HQ,"
I have an idea to include all - with 8 going to Prov Finals, the other 24 play 8 groups of 3 in a revamped 1st Rd Qual.
Top 2 in each join 4 Prov F losers in 20-team KO Rd 2.
10 Rd 2 winners and 2 Prov Champ Playoff Rd losers to 12-team Ko Rd 3.
6 Rd 3 and 2 unbeaten Prov Champs in the AI Last 8.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2614 - 26/06/2018 13:53:13    2115382

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Replying To Brian_Coyote:  "The GAA/RTE/Sky have performed very poorly with regards to coverage of the JMcD which has provide a number of cracking games. I have said it before each of the hurling competitions should be tendered for by the TV channels, the drawback being that matches would be set for odd times so that the TV channels would have full rights during their match time.
Footballers in the weak counties wanting TV coverage, sums up their priorities. the same weaker counties don't mind that their hurlers are not getting coverage, why should one be treated differenct to the other?
As for the arguement about players not wanting to play in competitions that suit their ability/level, look at the hurling again, didn't see Kildare hurlers struggle to field a strong team in the Christy Ring this past weekend. For those football people that believe football is above this, it sums up the snobbery you hold."
It's not snobbery.

I actually think there's room for hurling to change their structures too to enhance the game in weaker counties.

The Ulster championship being removed from the All Ireland really hurt the game up north. I wouldn't want similar to happen in football.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 26/06/2018 14:20:05    2115404

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Replying To Htaem:  "I honestly have no idea how you came up with that based upon my post.

My point when referencing global competitions was in relation to the fact that there's hammerings in all (or certainly most) competitions that I'm aware. Never mentioned the timelines of those conpetitions."
I've just laid out English Football in the same way which you think is an acceptable competition structure/format.

If the GAA have it right then they have it very wrong. Been following English Football have a long time now and the competition format is never discussed.

I guess I'm just trying to highlight that competitions in parallel, with the Primary one being Tiered in league format (top 4 sides in top league go into Al-Ireland Semi-final), and the Provincial Championships acting as the FA Cup could work in the GAA. Most people say these days the league is better than the championship. Why not make it the flagship event?

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 26/06/2018 16:03:36    2115473

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