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This years Championship is showing up the need for a tiered championship. It would, however, be a pity to do away with the provincial championships so here's a possible structure to have an A and B Championship along with the provincial competition. Everyone would start on the quest for Sam Maguire but each province would be divided into 2 divisions with promotion and relagation between them. The divisions would be decided by league positions in the first year. Here is how it would have looked this year:
Ulster Championship
Div. 1
Monaghan
Tyrone
Donegal
Down
Cavan
Div 2
Fermanagh
Derry
Armagh
Antrim
All Divisions Round Robin
Top three teams in Div 1. Into semi finals
Bottom team relegated
Top Team in Div 2 into semi finals
2nd and 3rd teams into B Championship
Leinster Championship
Div. 1
Dublin
Kildare
Meath
Louth
Longford
Wexford
Top 3 into semi finals
Bottom team relegated
Div. 2
Westmeath
Laois
Carlow
Offaly
Wicklow
Kilkenny
Top team into semi finals
2nd and 3rd into B championship
Connaught Championship
Div. 1
Mayo
Galway
Roscommon
Top team into final
2nd team into Semi final
Bottom team relegated
Division 2
Sligo
Leitrim
London or New York (Playoff)
Top team inSemi final
2nd team into B Championship
Munster Championship
Div. 1
Kerry
Cork
Clare
Top Team into final
2nd team into semi final
Bottom Team relegated
Div. 2
Tipperary
Limerick
Waterford
Top team into semi final
2nd team into B Championship
After Provincial Championships are over:
Provincial Winners into super 8
Qualifiers - two groups of 3 beaten provincial semi finalists then top two from each group drawn against beaten provincial finalists. Winners go through to super eights.
B Championship
Two groups of 3.
Top 2 in each group through to semi finals.
BlueHeaven (Cavan) - Posts: 75 - 24/06/2018 18:17:29
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would get rid of the league and play provinces Feb-Apr round robin.
3 divisions for championship
play out the divisions fully.
Then top 6 in div 1
make qtr final
1st and 2nd placed teams from div 2 and 3 play off. winner of those fixtures play 7th and 8th placed teams in div 1. winners of those fixtures make quarter final.
2 relagated/promoted each division.
everyone has a route to all ireland final but teams are mostly playing at their own level
also the lopsided funding to coaching counties needs to be addressed urgently
centerfield (Mayo) - Posts: 360 - 24/06/2018 20:18:48
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Players from the smaller counties don't want this. This has been resurrected umpteen times.
What could work is putting Dublin in Munster as they did with Galway in leinster in the hurling. It would help a revival of sorts in leinster as well as making munster much more competitive for Kerry. It couldn't be less competitive at the moment. Whether this happens or not would be dependent on the will of the munster council.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 24/06/2018 20:41:13
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Replying To Donegalman: "Players from the smaller counties don't want this. This has been resurrected umpteen times.
What could work is putting Dublin in Munster as they did with Galway in leinster in the hurling. It would help a revival of sorts in leinster as well as making munster much more competitive for Kerry. It couldn't be less competitive at the moment. Whether this happens or not would be dependent on the will of the munster council." They need to accept reality though, it's a joke there is no tiered system in football.......three of the four provincial finals were a farce and to be fair Connaught final while competitive was muck to watch......like the hurling counties have the football teams need to accept reality, if a second tiered championship was properly profiled and got some TV coverage then it would be accepted in time the big issue here is managers who want their ten mins of fame to justify the crazy fees they are charging.......
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 24/06/2018 22:22:48
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Tiered championships (senior, junior, intermediate) work really well at club level and in ladies football; no reason why they couldn't do the same at senior county level, if they were properly supported e.g have all 3 finals at Croke Park on the same day
befair (Down) - Posts: 237 - 24/06/2018 23:16:00
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Replying To PaudieSull1: "They need to accept reality though, it's a joke there is no tiered system in football.......three of the four provincial finals were a farce and to be fair Connaught final while competitive was muck to watch......like the hurling counties have the football teams need to accept reality, if a second tiered championship was properly profiled and got some TV coverage then it would be accepted in time the big issue here is managers who want their ten mins of fame to justify the crazy fees they are charging......." 'if a second tiered championship was properly profiled and got some TV coverage then it would be accepted in time'
This is the entire crux of the issue for me. A secondary football championship would receive next to no media attention. Look at the pitiful coverage given to the ill-fated Tommy Murphy cup or indeed any of the hurling competitions below the Liam McCarthy level.
M Lyster (Antrim) - Posts: 463 - 24/06/2018 23:26:21
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Here is the case for it. This is the average winning margins between the 4 provincial finals over the last 20 years. 1999-2003 5.2 points per game. 2004-2008 4.1 point per game. 2009-2013 5 points per game. 2014-2018 9.5 points per game. It is a massive jump. The problem with an A and B championship is that it won't fix it. The gap between divison 1 and 2 is way bigger than the gap between 1 and 4
LeitrimRoyal99 (Meath) - Posts: 1463 - 24/06/2018 23:42:48
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Replying To befair: "Tiered championships (senior, junior, intermediate) work really well at club level and in ladies football; no reason why they couldn't do the same at senior county level, if they were properly supported e.g have all 3 finals at Croke Park on the same day" Yes if they were properly supported but we all know the won't be. Just look at the hurling
galwayfball (Galway) - Posts: 1678 - 25/06/2018 01:12:09
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Replying To PaudieSull1: "They need to accept reality though, it's a joke there is no tiered system in football.......three of the four provincial finals were a farce and to be fair Connaught final while competitive was muck to watch......like the hurling counties have the football teams need to accept reality, if a second tiered championship was properly profiled and got some TV coverage then it would be accepted in time the big issue here is managers who want their ten mins of fame to justify the crazy fees they are charging......." Couldn't agree more. Its time that county board's accepted the reality of the situation and where they fit the GAA universe. County Boards should be sending more money on developing the internal county structure, developing younger players and the most importantly , the clubs, rather then focusing on the county teams and big name managers....
GAA is the club and the club is the GAA.
Termon (Tyrone) - Posts: 58 - 25/06/2018 06:50:11
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the second and third tier should not be decoupled from the all ireland. This would destroy their value.
after leagues/round robin phase completed
top 2 in div 3 should play top 2 in Div 2 then winner of that play 7th and 8th in division 1.
This means that every team (in theory as is the case now) can win the all ireland but they will play most/all there matches at their own level.
also giving a route back to div 2 team means that a team that gets relegated then makes a masssive improvement the following year can still contend e.g mayo 96.
There are clearly too many mismatches now
and can't be enjoyable for intercounty players to not have realistic attainable goals for a season. Also half of the matches now are complete mismatch rubbish to watch and can't be good for marketing the game.
On another note the GAA should take that extra money being given to Dublin and redistribute it to counties where it's needed Meath/Kildare/Offfally/Down/Cavan/Cork/Laoisand so on
centerfield (Mayo) - Posts: 360 - 25/06/2018 08:19:26
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I think the Provincials have to stay. The league just also has to be incorporated into the All Ireland.
Division 1 of 12 teams playing a single round robin.
4 Provincial championships.
6 team All Ireland playoffs.
4 Provincial champions plus 2 others from the league.
2 Best ranked Provincial champions into AI semis.
3rd and 4th ranked Provincial champions play against the 2 others from the league.
Division 2
2 regional sections of 10.
Division 2 North and South.
Top 2 from each section into division 2 semifinals. Finalists get automatically promoted.
3rd and 4th from each section still go into Promotion playoffs.
Winners play losing semi finalists.
Winners of that game play 9th or 10th from division 1 for a place in the following season's division 1.
11th and 12th from division 1 were automatically relegated.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4236 - 25/06/2018 10:08:54
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Tiered system is on its way - Super 8's is the start of it. As it stands after the draw this morning it looks like 7 of the 8 teams in Div 1 this year will hopefully make it to the Super 8's. So we've played a whole raft of meaningless qualifier games to prove what we already knew after the league. Thankfully draw means there are less likely to be mismatches in the super 8's.
In reality the top tier doesn't stretch beyond 10 teams so should run three comps with 10 teams in each based off league position - like the hurling lets just have two groups of 5 in each comp then semis and final. Every team guaranteed 11 games (7 league and 4 champo). Think it would rejuvenate things and give every team goals at the start of the year which are achievable.
Two key issues currently stopping roll out of this structure need to be addressed. 1) need to find a slot in the calendar to play off the provincial champos - in reality it should probably be early in the season 2) 2nd and 3rd tier comps need to get proper TV coverage and all Ireland finals to be played on same weekend/day in Croker.
blacknamber (Kerry) - Posts: 267 - 25/06/2018 10:48:39
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So far not 1 second of the McDonagh Cup has been shown on tv.
It features the hurling counties ranked 11-16 and is totally ignored
by the media which is a pity as its a great competition.
Thats the problem with Tier 2 competitions.
Plus the players dont want the football one.
carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 25/06/2018 11:03:43
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Replying To blacknamber: "Tiered system is on its way - Super 8's is the start of it. As it stands after the draw this morning it looks like 7 of the 8 teams in Div 1 this year will hopefully make it to the Super 8's. So we've played a whole raft of meaningless qualifier games to prove what we already knew after the league. Thankfully draw means there are less likely to be mismatches in the super 8's.
In reality the top tier doesn't stretch beyond 10 teams so should run three comps with 10 teams in each based off league position - like the hurling lets just have two groups of 5 in each comp then semis and final. Every team guaranteed 11 games (7 league and 4 champo). Think it would rejuvenate things and give every team goals at the start of the year which are achievable.
Two key issues currently stopping roll out of this structure need to be addressed. 1) need to find a slot in the calendar to play off the provincial champos - in reality it should probably be early in the season 2) 2nd and 3rd tier comps need to get proper TV coverage and all Ireland finals to be played on same weekend/day in Croker." In this scenario the only way to retain interest in the provincial champs is for them to give you some advantage in the Championship. Otherwise they remain the same rubbish competitions they are now with the same winners in Leinster and Munster. Dublin and Kerry may start to use them like they use the league i.e. just to blood new players which could give other teams a chance but even in Munster that looks a stretch at the moment.
Hard to believe that the GAA have allowed the provincial championships to become the joke they are now, a half empty Croke Park with one of the greatest ever Dublin teams playing who'd have thought they'd ever see it. My kids have no interest in going to watch Dublin in Leinster at the moment, I'm hoping the Super 8's might get them excited again even though I realise it's elitist and helps nobody but SKY and the bigger counties.
cavandub (Cavan) - Posts: 67 - 25/06/2018 11:07:45
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of course we need a tiered c'ship, but it won't happen, even though it is working in hurling
totalrecall (Leitrim) - Posts: 920 - 25/06/2018 11:13:58
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Replying To Donegalman: "Players from the smaller counties don't want this. This has been resurrected umpteen times.
What could work is putting Dublin in Munster as they did with Galway in leinster in the hurling. It would help a revival of sorts in leinster as well as making munster much more competitive for Kerry. It couldn't be less competitive at the moment. Whether this happens or not would be dependent on the will of the munster council." I know the weaker counties don't want it but lopsided games are killing the football championship. The tiered championship works in club football, why not county as well? Teams need to be playing football against teams at their own level. The team who wins the second tier championship could be given a route back into the All-Ireland series, say a spot in the Super 8s, surely that would be an incentive.
I totally agree with your second point regarding Dublin entering the Munster championship, that would be a quick fix for the provincials. It wouldn't be a long term solution but would be worth trying for a few years.
Green_Gold (Donegal) - Posts: 1876 - 25/06/2018 11:33:04
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I would have three tiers: Senior, Inter and Junior.
Senior would have 12 teams:
There would be 3 groups of 4 teams.
Each team plays each other once.
Every team plays 3 group matches. (1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral)
The top two teams plus the two best third teams go through the quarter-finals.
Quarter-finals would be ranked like the Heineken Rugby Cup.
A) 1 v 8
B) 2 v 7
C) 3 v 6
D) 4 v 5
Semi-finals:
1) A v D
2) B v C
Final:
1 v 2 (Winner crowned Senior Champions)
The bottom 3 teams plus the team that finished 3rd with the worst record goes into the relegation play-offs.
A) 12 v 9
B) 11 v 10
Relegation Final:
Loser of A v B (Loser relegated to Inter)
Inter would have 10 teams.
There would be 2 groups of 5 teams.
Each team plays each other once.
Every team plays 4 group matches. (2 home and 2 away)
The group winner goes through the semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd teams go through the quarter-finals.
A) 2nd Group 1 v 3rd Group 2
B) 3rd Group 1 v 2nd Group 2
Semi finals:
1) Group 1 winner v B
2) Group 2 winner v A
Final:
1 v 2 (Winner crowned Inter Champions and promoted to Senior)
Relegation playoffs would consist of the bottom two teams.
A) 5th Group 1 v 4th Group 2
B) 4th Group 1 v 5th Group 2
Relegation final:
Loser of A v B (Loser relegated to Junior)
Junior would have 10 teams.
There would be 2 groups of 5 teams.
Each team plays each other once.
Every team plays 4 group matches. (2 home and 2 away)
The group winner goes through the semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd teams go through the quarter-finals.
A) 2nd Group 1 v 3rd Group 2
B) 3rd Group 1 v 2nd Group 2
Semi finals:
1) Group 1 winner v B
2) Group 2 winner v A
Final:
1 v 2 (Winner crowned Junior Champions and promoted to Inter)
OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 25/06/2018 11:54:32
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I would have three tiers: Senior, Inter and Junior.
Senior would have 12 teams:
There would be 3 groups of 4 teams.
Each team plays each other once.
Every team plays 3 group matches. (1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral)
The top two teams plus the two best third teams go through the quarter-finals.
Quarter-finals would be ranked like the Heineken Rugby Cup.
A) 1 v 8
B) 2 v 7
C) 3 v 6
D) 4 v 5
Semi-finals:
1) A v D
2) B v C
Final:
1 v 2 (Winner crowned Senior Champions)
The bottom 3 teams plus the team that finished 3rd with the worst record goes into the relegation play-offs.
A) 12 v 9
B) 11 v 10
Relegation Final:
Loser of A v B (Loser relegated to Inter)
Inter would have 10 teams.
There would be 2 groups of 5 teams.
Each team plays each other once.
Every team plays 4 group matches. (2 home and 2 away)
The group winner goes through the semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd teams go through the quarter-finals.
A) 2nd Group 1 v 3rd Group 2
B) 3rd Group 1 v 2nd Group 2
Semi finals:
1) Group 1 winner v B
2) Group 2 winner v A
Final:
1 v 2 (Winner crowned Inter Champions and promoted to Senior)
Relegation playoffs would consist of the bottom two teams.
A) 5th Group 1 v 4th Group 2
B) 4th Group 1 v 5th Group 2
Relegation final:
Loser of A v B (Loser relegated to Junior)
Junior would have 10 teams.
There would be 2 groups of 5 teams.
Each team plays each other once.
Every team plays 4 group matches. (2 home and 2 away)
The group winner goes through the semi-finals.
2nd and 3rd teams go through the quarter-finals.
A) 2nd Group 1 v 3rd Group 2
B) 3rd Group 1 v 2nd Group 2
Semi finals:
1) Group 1 winner v B
2) Group 2 winner v A
Final:
1 v 2 (Winner crowned Junior Champions and promoted to Inter)
OLLIE (Louth) - Posts: 12224 - 25/06/2018 11:54:44
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Replying To cavandub: "In this scenario the only way to retain interest in the provincial champs is for them to give you some advantage in the Championship. Otherwise they remain the same rubbish competitions they are now with the same winners in Leinster and Munster. Dublin and Kerry may start to use them like they use the league i.e. just to blood new players which could give other teams a chance but even in Munster that looks a stretch at the moment.
Hard to believe that the GAA have allowed the provincial championships to become the joke they are now, a half empty Croke Park with one of the greatest ever Dublin teams playing who'd have thought they'd ever see it. My kids have no interest in going to watch Dublin in Leinster at the moment, I'm hoping the Super 8's might get them excited again even though I realise it's elitist and helps nobody but SKY and the bigger counties." Could easily give automatic slots in the top tier to the provincial winners - play the provincials first and then the league format after - in reality the top 10 would likely contain all 4 provincial winners but if not then the 10 team in rankings drop to the 2nd tier. Everyone would know where they stand before the league format commences.
On the TV thing GAA are already selling games to various TV outlets - just bundle up packages with games from each tier - TV providers buy the bundles and then have to screen the lower tier games along with the attractive top tier games.
I think with the lack of competition in Munster and Leinster which looks set to get worse this change could be closer than we think. Your point re interest is well made - I nor many of the 30k in Cork last Sat wont be going back to attend a munster final in a hurry and its the same story with the games in Leinster.
blacknamber (Kerry) - Posts: 267 - 25/06/2018 11:58:58
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Tiered championships will only continue to hide the real problem. The GAA will keep going the way it has the last couple of decades with the have's getting more and more and the have not's getting further and further behind. Every time a few more teams drop back from the standard set at the top there is talk of restructuring. Where does it end? Do we keep restructuring until we are in a position where there are 2 Counties in the AI Championship and the rest playing off for secondary, tertiary, quaternary etc tier competition.
Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 25/06/2018 12:18:45
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