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Great post, and I agree more acknowledgement should be given to the fact this came from a county with no tradition. What is unfair though is comparing other great sides like Meath, Cork, Down, Donegal and Derry. Two of Tyrone's All Ireland win's came through the back door. As with the teams mentioned Tyrone would have been gone in 2005 after the Ulster final and the first round in 2008 so they only had one unbeaten season. If the back door was around in the 90's would Derry have added another All Ireland, I suspect possibly, they probably would have played Down in the All Ireland semi or final in 1994. Boylan's Meath took some beating, could you imagine how difficult it would have been to beat them twice in the one summer?! Tyrone came at the right time with the back door and benefited from it, they used it to pip Armagh in 2005, the extra hunger from the Ulster Final would have been significant. That Armagh team dominated Ulster for 10 years, without a backdoor you could argue it would have been Armagh and Kerry dominating the Croke Park games, as Tyrone would have been gone early in 05 and 08. Without diluting Tyrone's success it is unfair to compare it to others in the previous 20 years, as the system change helped.
sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 01/05/2018 17:28:50 2096050 Link 1 |
To be fair though mate its a bit narrow looking just at finals, to be fair it works both ways i think it was Brolly who said sometime in the last few years that Kerry were the "greatest team of 00's at beating Cork and Mayo". When you look at the route Dublin have taken to finals every year they have beaten every top team that the country can throw at them who have been able to ask a question in the Championship there just isn't anyone left who hasn't been overcome especially in the Gavin era, that in itself is remarkable in an era. Most of the top teams have been multiple times at this stage and often in the same year and all done through the front door. I havent looked at any of Kerry routes to finals in the 00's but i presume they were equally as tough. Someone was telling me the other day, that Dublin are going to take the record some time in the Leinster championship of most games unbeaten in the championship of all time, im not sure if its true or not, but they seemed to think the record is 19 held by either Kerry or Wexford, i cant remember which now, i think it may have been Wexford as one year Kerry got a by to Munster final. Its pretty telling if the above is true that the type of performances and dominance that Dublin are currently exerting, just hasn't been seen in the sport before, not in the modern context as we know it. Its uncharted territory really. TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 18:03:38 2096054 Link 2 |
I didn't say they'd definitely beat them If I did say that it was an error on my part All I can see is that Kerry lost games when it was put up to them (albeit Cork.. but Cork had beaten Kerry in Munster that year) Kerry no doubt profited greatly winning completely one sided AI's - poor finals against opposition way out of their depth To think Mayo were the 2nd best team in Ireland over those years shows how average the championships were in my opinion The current Mayo side is far superior to the shambles Kerry took on in those finals I've no doubt Donegal 2012 could have beaten Tyrone or Kerry in the 00's Sure Kerry greatly struggled against Armagh and Tyrone. Donegal 2012 are every bit as good and had that edge that Kerry struggled against. Current Dubs team can setup in a very similar fashion and a lesser 2011 version setup similar to Tyrone and beat Kerry with a starting 15 not as good as Kerry that day. That Kerry team have to be judged on how they played against the better teams of the 00's and more often than not they lost. No doubt profiting greatly from playing inferior opposition to themselves rather than beating the best. That's sort of undeniable. jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 01/05/2018 18:05:40 2096055 Link 2 |
I totally agree. Dublin have the panel and game knowledge to play any sort of setup successfully as has been proven. Gavin forgot about that in 2014 but addressed it superbly well. Going on the greatest run of competitive victories ever seen across League and Championship in the history of the GAA. Thanks Paul Murphy! jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 01/05/2018 18:09:13 2096057 Link 2 |
But in anyway's jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 01/05/2018 18:33:48 2096060 Link 2 |
In the first year of the backdoor Tyrone had to play Derry twice. Under the old system they would have faced Roscommon in the semi final. You win some you lose some. You can only play what's in front of you. 2005 was great in that inside one month they beat Dublin,Armagh and Kerry. Tyrone 2005 2008,Kerry 2006 2009 were all great wins. Do Galway think 1998 was better than 2001 l doubt it.
Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 01/05/2018 18:43:15 2096062 Link 1 |
If that's the case it's also undeniable that Dublin are currently doing the exact same thing Jimbo, who aside from a good (not great) Mayo side has really tested them? The competition in Leinster is the weakest ever and Kerry Tyrone and Donegal are all rebuilding, and Armagh and Cork have fallen off a cliff along with several usually strong Ulster sides. You point to Kerry and say they only win handy All Ireland's but Dublin have strolled to their titles, overcoming Mayo usually, you can't have it both ways jimbo. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 18:50:56 2096065 Link 2 |
Who listens to Brolly, Kerry beat what was in front of them when they could and came back again and again to contest finals. They beat a lot more than Cork and Mayo over their purple patch, but people only seem to want to focus on a few defeats, understandably when it fits a particular agenda. I would accept that those defeats to Tyrone will leave an indelible question mark on that teams legacy. They were probably a bit tactically naive at times, especially against counter attacking teams, but were outstanding in full flight, and I think if you had those players available now, with current training and tactics you'd have a very special team. We'll never know of course. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 19:00:56 2096067 Link 2 |
Mayo are almost on par with this Dublin team when you look at the results. So they are right up there with one of the best teams of all time as has been proven from their performances. jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 01/05/2018 19:25:40 2096073 Link 2 |
Geniusgerry "Dublin have strolled to All Ireland's" Daft thing to say Gerry. I mean what have you been watching haha Want to see strolling to All Ireland's ... get out your 00's DVD chief and focus on your cake walk titles against Mayo who were probably one of the poorest finalists seen in the last 30 years Every AI won by Dublin this decade has been hugely competitive and they had to win games they should have lost. The stats, results, footage is there for all to see So really what are you on about! jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20601 - 01/05/2018 19:34:46 2096076 Link 1 |
Your attempt to paint Mayo as one of the greatest teams of all time is really odd jimbo. They have yet to win an All Ireland, and haven't won their province in a few years. The past two seasons they have been pushed all the way by some very ordinary teams. Yes they have had some heroic losses against Dublin in finals, but since when does this make a great team? According to you losing close finals means you are not a great team, at least when you are kerry anyway. I really don't get where you are coming from at all with this narrative. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 19:53:24 2096084 Link 2 |
Fair play mate, I don't really have any axe to grind with either team of the 00s, I don't see any issue really with eras, Kerry, Tyrone or Dublin really all were successful teams, all put cups on the table, all were enjoyable to watch for different reasons. I don't see the point in taking anything away or criticizing any of the teams if I'm being honest. It's all a bit of a "my dad, is better then your dad debate". :D Only a couple of weeks now until a ball is kicked, thankfully, I like how yee are traveling at the moment and I rate young David, Burns and particularly Sean O Shea, cause for optimisim (tempered I'm sure) down the south west in my opinion!! Will be about finding the balance I think! TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 20:00:50 2096087 Link 0 |
Nobody has laid a glove on Dublin in years apart from Mayo, and I have said all I am going to say about them jimbo. You want to believe you are beating top team after top team every years that's fine, the reality is there is a dearth of genuine contenders about at the minute and ye have benefited from that. Kerry have at times in the past too no doubt about it.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 20:09:10 2096090 Link 2 |
Absolutely Username, but damned if I am going to sit by and read lads casually insult and dismiss one of my favourite teams. I have stated in this thread Dublin probably have the edge all things considered l, but I don't think it's as clear cut as some want to make believe. We are moving in the right direction for 2018, but it's at least a year too early for us, probably two. I can't see who is going to stop ye this year tbh, even with the few injuries ye have. GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 01/05/2018 20:29:55 2096093 Link 3 |
I think it will be very compeitive this year mate with some epic games, I see five teams that can win it out right and I think a lot of games will be marginal when it comes to those teams plaging each other. We are the team to beat for sure, but I don't think we are as strong as other years, a lot of transition actually happened last year in the starting that was backed by a lot of Ireland backing it up from the bench. Questions will be asked of many of the Dublin lads to be the senior players now with injuries and others leaving the panel. It's hard not to be confident, but I'm not overly, ill enjoy it eaother way. I think Kerry are going in welll with no real expectations and a bit of space for development. I think the league was a bit of shadow boxing and got what you were looking for out of it. Plenty of headroom for development, players coming back and lads further along in fitness. The panel is as deep and as young as anyone. The only weaknesses I can see are cracking the defensive code and standing up to the physical challenge, yee could prob do with a couple of midfielders to, a lot of that is coachable so I'm pretty much presuming Kerry will be in contention. There is the cynical part of me that think the GAA has set the up the S8 to give a Dublin Vs Kerry final it's best shot and push the 4/5 in row narrative. TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 01/05/2018 21:16:57 2096106 Link 1 |
Owen Mulligan has now said that, even though he's a fan of Lee Brennan, 'none' of the current Tyrone forwards would get onto any of Tyrone's three winning noughties teams. essmac (Tyrone) - Posts: 1141 - 02/05/2018 09:26:27 2096176 Link 0 |
The 08 team would surely have room for one or two. Colm McCullough had a good year but Brennan would be more prolific. If you call Mattie Donnelly or Peter Harte a forward, they'd make it too. Keeper, Defence and midfield were excellent for tyrone in 08 but Sean Cavanagh carried that full forward line. cavanman47 (Cavan) - Posts: 5018 - 02/05/2018 11:08:02 2096202 Link 0 |
Interesting opinion and he'd be closer to the teams / players than 99.9% (if not all) on this forum, but would players like Penrose, J McMahon, T McGuigan and McCullagh that started the 2008 final, fine players that they are, all be better options than current options like Sudden, Donnelly, Brennan etc.? I'd argue not.
Kurt_Angle (Dublin) - Posts: 567 - 02/05/2018 12:29:50 2096219 Link 0 |
That 08 team did have some very average players on paper. Even their results were pretty poor up until the famous quarter final against Dublin. lambofgod (Mayo) - Posts: 116 - 02/05/2018 15:19:10 2096247 Link 0 |
The 2008 team was very strong defensively, with Joe McMahon, Justin McMahon, Ricey, Davy Harte, Gormley & Jordan. A bit like the current Mayo side, that defence gave them a chance in every game. In midfield, Enda McGinley was the best midfielder in Ireland that year, and really should have won Footballer of the Year. The attack had lots of pace and energy, and still had Dooher playing at a high level. Collie McCullough was particularly good that season, while Ryan Mellon recaptured his 2005 form late in the summer. But really, it was Sean Cavanagh's relocation to full forward that made all the difference. He was excellent, and allowed the rest to fit in around him. The current Tyrone forward line would be comparable to the 2008 team, with the exception of Big Sean at 14. Mickey Harte himself knew that the forwards weren't what he had in 03-05, which is why he was delighted for Stevie O'Neill to come out of retirement and return to the squad a fortnight before the AI final. When you think about it, for that to happen was pretty incredible. A player joining a panel in September, and being the first sub in the AI final 2 weeks later. With the modern focus on team unity and nobody breaking the group, I'm not sure we'll ever see something like that again. It's also a testament to how Stevie was thought of by his teammates that they were ok with it happening. Thomas Clarke (Tyrone) - Posts: 1002 - 02/05/2018 15:40:38 2096253 Link 0 |