National Forum

An Elite Club System Is The Future

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Replying To moc.dna:  ""In my system plenty of clubs will fold, that's a good thing", wow ! you also advocate that sport is all about being the best. Sport is about participation & enjoyment & your advocating the opposite, what a load of I'll thought out nonsense over several essays of posts. You throw a glancing reply to the question posed as to the administration & reffing of these five elite league competitions by saying they would be run as in the rugby model, what's that ? Where's the detail to back up your proposal. It's such a contradiction to be complaining about the elitism of Inter County to them go & propose an even more elite system at club level with massive closures of clubs & less people participating, lol."
Read my post by the way.

There wouldn't only be 5 elite leagues.

There'd be levels below them. Relegation and promotion to move between layers.

It allows clubs to break out from the county board system which is absolutely failing them by not providing them with fixtures.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 22/04/2018 15:03:31    2094316

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Why is elitism such a dirty word in the GAA.

Why do people play sport if not to be the best.

In my system plenty of clubs will fold.

That's a good thing.

The club should be there for the player let them choose who they play for.

This is a big problem in the GAA.

Clubs, counties, universities think they own players and they should all be able to get a piece of them.

It's failing players.

If a club doesn't survive you know what maybe it shouldn't survive.

The county system fails players from weaker counties where they don't get a realistic shot at playing at the top level. It's fails huge numbers of players in the strong counties where the best level they play is senior club.

The county board system fails clubs too by not giving them a proper.

As for administration and referees etc it would be run in a very similar manner to Rugby and soccer that have very similar systems in place.

It's a real quirk of the roots of the GAA and Ireland's history as a poor rural country that has the current structures in place."
How is plenty of clubs folding a good thing ? I'd really like to know.
In no way what so ever do you get and understand what the GAA is all about I think you should stick to watching the premier league

Galwayjoe86 (Galway) - Posts: 258 - 22/04/2018 15:18:26    2094320

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Replying To Galwayjoe86:  "How is plenty of clubs folding a good thing ? I'd really like to know.
In no way what so ever do you get and understand what the GAA is all about I think you should stick to watching the premier league"
Well I've played the game since I was 6 years old. Played for 2 clubs in 2 separate counties and go to many more club fixtures every year as fan of those 2 clubs and as a neutral in other counties.

The reason I think clubs folding can be a good thin because in their place can be a bigger better club. That's able to cater for more players, compete at a higher level. Offer more for their members.

I wrote the history of my own club. There were 3 separate attempts to get Gaelic games going in the area. The club that is there now is thriving. I think that's much better than clubs limping on.

The history of the association is full of clubs coming and going being replaced by stronger clubs. So don't patronise me about not understanding the GAA.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 22/04/2018 15:42:19    2094324

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Your ideas have lots of merit but it comes down to the will to implement change and the money to finance the change. Neither is there. I like hurling being amature ..i don't particularly care if it goes back a step or two in standard if participation and the fun side of things remain. There isn't much fun in 5 year plans like Tyrone churn out. It's more corporate rubbish.

PeggyShippen (Limerick) - Posts: 300 - 22/04/2018 17:01:30    2094337

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If you think seriously about professionalism (or Semi Pro), you need to think in terms of Markets. What size market is needed to sustain a team. Ideally the market has some sense of history to make people feel part of it. That is why Rugby was so lucky with the four provinces. Brand new clubs with 120 years of history.

So what would the markets be. How about Ulster, Connacht, Munster, Dublin and Rest of Leinster on the island with London and New York off the island. That would be 7. If you split Leinster North and South you could make 8.

In terms of structure I could see the Sept to Feb being a (semi) pro league. The traditional county league is Jan to March and shortened. Counties play the league without their semi pro players. Then a break followed by the championship where the pro players return to their original counties. The existing club championship stays but minus the pro players.

Contracts are held centrally by the GAA, and there is a draft system so the best players coming on to the market are allocated to the last team in the league, just like the american NFL.

S

shaneShankill (Dublin) - Posts: 42 - 23/04/2018 15:35:48    2094553

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I'd just like to point out I don't propose a model such as this to enable professionalism.

I just think it'd be an interesting system that could grow the club game and allow it to holds it own with the intercounty game.

It would cater for those ambitious players wanting to play at the highest possible level. The incentive is to play for a club at a National level.

There would be nothing forcing players to move clubs by the way. The freedom of movement I mention would obviously be voluntary. I just think it'd be good for players to have the option.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 23/04/2018 16:45:07    2094567

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The GAA already has a good product and I see no reason to reinvent the whole thing. What's needed is a full restructuring of the inter county game and most likely a tiered championship where teams play at their own level. There are too many mismatches early in the championship.

Even at that I don't think there is a market there to support a professional sport at any level, we are a tiny country and there is limited appeal outside of Ireland. Players will be paid eventually, but we are a long way from having full time footballers.

I think a move to professional superclubs would ruin the game. I have always been amazed at the way the GAA knits communities together, a lot of that would be lost if we turned clubs into a feeder system for professional outfits.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 23/04/2018 16:45:07    2094568

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "The GAA already has a good product and I see no reason to reinvent the whole thing. What's needed is a full restructuring of the inter county game and most likely a tiered championship where teams play at their own level. There are too many mismatches early in the championship.

Even at that I don't think there is a market there to support a professional sport at any level, we are a tiny country and there is limited appeal outside of Ireland. Players will be paid eventually, but we are a long way from having full time footballers.

I think a move to professional superclubs would ruin the game. I have always been amazed at the way the GAA knits communities together, a lot of that would be lost if we turned clubs into a feeder system for professional outfits."
Once again I would like to point out that I don't espouse professional setups either.

My message seems to be getting confused with the post from Pantani where he wants a professional franchised club league that sits above the existing club league.

I want something different.

I want simply to break free from the county based organisation of the club game.

Any large new clubs would grow out of existing clubs over time.

There would be more free movement of players because you will have less stigma around transferring clubs because you won't be moving from local rivals anymore. You'd be moving from one team to another who are operating at a different competitive plain.

It happens already within counties, where guys leave Junior clubs to go play senior level. It happens also with the likes of Tomás O Se moving from An Gaeltacht to Nemo.

The idea is about removing the barriers that allow clubs to grow.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 24/04/2018 05:29:53    2094654

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Once again I would like to point out that I don't espouse professional setups either.

My message seems to be getting confused with the post from Pantani where he wants a professional franchised club league that sits above the existing club league.

I want something different.

I want simply to break free from the county based organisation of the club game.

Any large new clubs would grow out of existing clubs over time.

There would be more free movement of players because you will have less stigma around transferring clubs because you won't be moving from local rivals anymore. You'd be moving from one team to another who are operating at a different competitive plain.

It happens already within counties, where guys leave Junior clubs to go play senior level. It happens also with the likes of Tomás O Se moving from An Gaeltacht to Nemo.

The idea is about removing the barriers that allow clubs to grow."
An Gaeltacht were intermediate when Tomás Ó Sé transferred to Nemo. An Gaeltacht are now a senior club again, and were in an all Ireland club in 2003/4.
Not a great example to use

LooseCannon (Offaly) - Posts: 86 - 24/04/2018 11:00:16    2094699

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I think the Kerry club system is better than free movement. Small Junior and IM clubs play together in the Senior Championship to form divisional sides, I.e. South Kerry, West Kerry etc. This gives the best players from these clubs the chance of winning senior medals and maintains their ties to their home club. These divisional sides have often been successful in cycles. That's a template that could be used anywhere.

With free movement will come all sorts of shenanigans, under the table payments to players etc. The monied town clubs would get stronger and the rural clubs would continually lose their better players.

Players can already transfer if they are living and working in an area away from their home county, as was the case with Tomás, who was well past his best and had given many good years to an Gaeltacht before he transferred to Nemo.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 24/04/2018 11:42:04    2094714

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think I explained the system correctly.

The clubs playing in this National club league would be existing clubs.

Say there were 18 teams in the football league they'd be made up of the best 18 teams from the whole country.

In hurling the same would happen. You would' have the same clubs in hurling as you would in football.

The system would have to be worked towards over a number of years.

I'd probably look to introduce Provincial leagues first. The whole point of the idea is to remove the restrictions that limit how big club sides can grow.

For me these are the limits on the movement of players and the organisation of club competitions at a local level.

There is no great incentive to leave your home club when you'd be playing in the same club competitions anyway. To move to a better team with more chance of success is just not done in GAA.

If clubs were operating at completely different competitive levels there'd be less stigma around moving clubs.

A player wouldn't be moving to a rival, they'd be moving to a team at a higher level.

This is only thinking outside the box from a GAA context. Every other sport operates in this way.

Their is no reason why a National club league couldn't work in Gaelic games. They have them in basketball etc.

You'd also be taking the club fixtures out of the hands of county boards, so there'd be less control of the club game by the intercounty game.

A top club in GAA over time could grow to be bigger than county teams. Look at soccer, the top clubs have a global catchment of players. Barcelona are bigger than Brazil.

The World Cup though can still exist alongside and hold its own against club soccer.

I'd say a version of this sort of model in GAA is what could work for the game in the future."
You explained it fine. It's just idiotic.

FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts: 564 - 25/04/2018 11:05:46    2094915

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Hmmm, interesting but missing the actual point of what makes the GAA, well the GAA.........

Affiliation and Connection
When you're born by and large you play for the club in the area/parish you are born . That is that.
The previous club members impart their knowledge on to you without payment in the hope that one day you will be able to drive the club onto greater things. They give up their time willingly in this pursuit.

They will not do that for some makey up entity like West Belfast Wolfhounds, the Mayo Morons, Cork City Cretins and so forth.
As for basing it on existing clubs, could you imagine the best St Johns players going off to play for Rossa in this fictional fantasy world of yours? Do you not think that rivalry exists in every town, county in Ireland?

We all have a connection with our clubs, warts and all. We also have a connection with our County.

I don't think we'll buy into the superclub model and TBH take a look at Rugby, there's lessons to be learned WRT the club game there and we don't want to make the same mistakes.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 25/04/2018 11:27:11    2094926

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Replying To FootblockREF:  "You explained it fine. It's just idiotic."
I guess we have different ideas on what's idiotic.

I think it's idiotic that the top level of the sport is based on geographical regions where the largest entity has a population that's 20% of the whole country.

I think it's idiotic that simultaneously there are problems with player burnout and yet there's a huge dropout rate of players because of a lack of games. That's a direct result of having the county system dominant.

I think it's idiotic to be wed to systems that made sense in the early days of the association when the country was poorer and more rural. For the increasingly urban Ireland I don't think the current structures are fit for purpose.

I can point to a lot of evidence and issues that the association to back that assertion up.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 25/04/2018 16:55:15    2094990

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Replying To bricktop:  "Hmmm, interesting but missing the actual point of what makes the GAA, well the GAA.........

Affiliation and Connection
When you're born by and large you play for the club in the area/parish you are born . That is that.
The previous club members impart their knowledge on to you without payment in the hope that one day you will be able to drive the club onto greater things. They give up their time willingly in this pursuit.

They will not do that for some makey up entity like West Belfast Wolfhounds, the Mayo Morons, Cork City Cretins and so forth.
As for basing it on existing clubs, could you imagine the best St Johns players going off to play for Rossa in this fictional fantasy world of yours? Do you not think that rivalry exists in every town, county in Ireland?

We all have a connection with our clubs, warts and all. We also have a connection with our County.

I don't think we'll buy into the superclub model and TBH take a look at Rugby, there's lessons to be learned WRT the club game there and we don't want to make the same mistakes."
I say future in my post because I'd see this as a gradual process.

Not that many from Rossa would move to St Johns now.

Someone moving into Belfast though would bear in mind the level of competition a club plays at when deciding their allegiance.

The size of the clubs you'd be talking about would be the likes of St Vincent's, Ballymun Kickhams, Kilmacud Crokes.

With the size of Dublin these clubs can grow to large sizes naturally.

The free movement of players isn't the key thing here.

It's the county based model of club competitions.

Just by breaking out of that clubs will grow bigger naturally over time.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 25/04/2018 17:05:38    2094993

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There will need to be a change. Clubs used to represent counties in the early days for All Irelands. It's not just Dublins population that makes the system unfair. Corks population is bigger than the whole of Connachts.

PeggyShippen (Limerick) - Posts: 300 - 26/04/2018 12:48:22    2095070

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I don't think it'd hurt the game at grassroots.

It doesn't in soccer or rugby.

Players move on and upward no big deal, it happens in all sports why is it frowned upon in GAA.

Clubs would lose players from bigger clubs but they'd also gain players from big clubs who aren't going to make their first team.

Right now players do transfer from their home club and the world continues on. I'd just think it'd be good if it were more the norm."
Under your rules the smaller club will never be allowed grow,no matter how much that club works on their underage,all the best players will leave for the super club,I really can't understand where your coming from,it would destroy the gaa,as bad as things are now,we might as well give up under your suggestions.

cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts: 779 - 26/04/2018 18:08:50    2095145

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Replying To cityman73:  "Under your rules the smaller club will never be allowed grow,no matter how much that club works on their underage,all the best players will leave for the super club,I really can't understand where your coming from,it would destroy the gaa,as bad as things are now,we might as well give up under your suggestions."
What's wrong with a club being small. There would still be promotion and relegation between levels.

The grassroots and underage coaching survives in every other sport why would it not do so in GAA.

In other sports it's the love of the sport and giving something back that drives that. I'd be surprised if that disappeared.

Where I am coming from is that other sports are better structured than ours.

You are all approaching this from a what about the club perspective.

What about the player with talent born in Leitrim or Carlow who could be playing at the highest level week in week out. What about the guys born in Louth, Wicklow or Antrim, those talented guys aren't going to play GAA at all they will play soccer. What about if they could move to a club more in line with their talents. Where they can play at the highest level regardless of where they are born.

What about the guy who plays for a strong club and never is able to quite make it as a regular for his own team and is doomed to play reserve football for years despite being capable of starting for a different team that matches his level better.

Clubs should serve people, not the other way around.

Let people choose who they play for, why should people be forced to play for a club or a county just because of where they are born.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 26/04/2018 19:37:20    2095155

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Clubs should serve people, not the other way around.

Let people choose who they play for, why should people be forced to play for a club or a county just because of where they are born.

If you think this then and if a lot of people in Belfast think this then no wonder the GAA is struggling (in real terms) in there.

West Belfast was renowned for its pride in sense of identity, you seemed to have lost that along the way. Maybe its wall to wall English premiership being pumped in to every living room for 20 odd years.

The local club is all about you and yours. It improves and develops because of what you and yours invest in it, time, money, emotions.
Those things are not interchangeable or transferable to some other makey up identity.

This is the bedrock of the GAA, it is the soul of the GAA. Don't ever lose sight of that.

bricktop (Down) - Posts: 2503 - 30/04/2018 10:14:37    2095659

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The club is the cornerstone of the GAA and if we try harder to lose that, then we are in decline. All we need is a master plan where there is a divide between club and county where the club has periods were all players are assessable. Presently the national league stops in March and then you have a ridiculous situation where some counties start inter county championship in the first week in May and other counties do not start until the last week in June. Master Plan should have dates in all counties
Play all competitions in the one year
Play championship after a two week break from National league with matches every week
Finish inter county in mid- August
Have club championship from last week in August and finish it along with AI club

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 30/04/2018 13:00:37    2095713

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Replying To bricktop:  "Clubs should serve people, not the other way around.

Let people choose who they play for, why should people be forced to play for a club or a county just because of where they are born.

If you think this then and if a lot of people in Belfast think this then no wonder the GAA is struggling (in real terms) in there.

West Belfast was renowned for its pride in sense of identity, you seemed to have lost that along the way. Maybe its wall to wall English premiership being pumped in to every living room for 20 odd years.

The local club is all about you and yours. It improves and develops because of what you and yours invest in it, time, money, emotions.
Those things are not interchangeable or transferable to some other makey up identity.

This is the bedrock of the GAA, it is the soul of the GAA. Don't ever lose sight of that."
Once again a Makey uppy team is not part of my plans.

It's about breaking free of county run competition structures. In doing so it'll break a natural barrier to growth that clubs have.

There will be big clubs. I'd be happy enough for there to also be free movement of players.

Players do not have to move. They will only move if their existing clubs if the club isn't meeting their needs. I can't see why that is a bad thing.

The Antrim situation is a reason why I'm in favour of something like this.

GAA does not exist in a vacuum. There's rugby and soccer to compete with. This is particularly pertinent in Antrim.

I can see why talented sporting individuals in Antrim don't play GAA. There isn't really an avenue for a player to excel in GAA in Antrim in the same way as there is in Dublin or Kerry.

If there was an Antrim club that had grown to play in the National club league you'd have something better for youngsters to aspire to.

I look at the increased funding in Antrim and I worry that it's not going to work because at the minute we don't have a strong enough presence at the elite level for children to aspire to.

Players and volunteers are the lifeblood of the association. Players in particular are walking away from the game after juvenile level in numbers that the other sports don't see.

I think the structures we have contribute to that.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4232 - 30/04/2018 13:11:10    2095718

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