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I know what you're trying to say and tbh i'd agree with you in the context of the ''great'' players getting to all irelands and having a major platform to showcase their talent and possibly win the all ireland. Take Declan Browne, Forde etc. if they had the players around them to allow them that platform they may be considered greats!!!! its too early for Keegan for example but i'd certainly say he has the attributes of an exceptional talent and maybe a great some day. although he hasn't won an all ireland he's been inspirational in those games. which some could say is the sign of a great. albeit far too early to talk like that!!
theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 28/03/2018 15:42:25 2089073 Link 0 |
People will have different criteria of what constitutes great, it may be a good player, with no material success like a Keegan or whoever, i think thats fair enough particularly if say you are from Mayo. What i look is a balance between a good player and materiel success relative to context and opportunity. In cases like Connolly and Keegan etc, an ALL Ireland winning medal has to come into mix as a key factor in determining greatness, given teams and opportunity, which is where this particular debate started i think on whether Keegan was a great player or not in comparison to Connolly, not even close in my opinion. TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2018 16:03:21 2089077 Link 0 |
in a 15 man plus subs sport one individual can only have so much influence in fairness....the dutch 74 team and the brazil teams of the 80s are considered great despite not winning a thing, i think most people will consider this mayo team pretty special
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/03/2018 17:32:18 2089108 Link 0 |
I think they'll be more infamous than famous
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 28/03/2018 17:37:35 2089113 Link 0 |
bills of the 90s another one, potentially but some great players on this team no doubt, and if we are considered one of the best teams of all time than surely based on their games against us this mayo team must be considered right up there as a great side?
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/03/2018 17:49:18 2089117 Link 0 |
So by your logic a player who has multiple All Ireland Medals but who may never have even played in an Ireland final is a better player than than some of those unfortunate enough to be born in counties that haven't reached the holy grail. So the likes of Declan Browne who won two All Stars and almost single handled carried Tipperary for yrs is inferior to a guy who wears number 26 for an All Ireland winning side?
dubarra (Wicklow) - Posts: 541 - 29/03/2018 07:13:01 2089236 Link 0 |
They have managed to compete against Dublin but haven't won a national title and it's been zero titles won since Rochford has taken over. They have struggled to beat teams in the back door from lower division and they have a dismal league record and very poor home record, all of the above isn't the mark of a great team. No doubt they've managed to compete with Dublin very well but that's papering over a lot of stuff and teams 100% should be judged on silverware won not teams that can compete with Dublin when we're talking about great teams. As I said I think they could get close enough this year but it's coming to the end of this team IMO and I think they'll go down as infamous rather than famous.. I can see the TG4 documentary on them now in about 10 years time and the main tone won't be winning. jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 29/03/2018 09:34:57 2089259 Link 0 |
He plays and everyone talks about him. witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 29/03/2018 10:20:17 2089266 Link 0 |
What is Diarmuid's occupation? TheDigger (USA) - Posts: 84 - 29/03/2018 14:45:55 2089338 Link 0 |
You changed your criteria as the debate heatened up. You were pretty black up until the last few posts.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 29/03/2018 14:50:21 2089340 Link 0 |
I didn't really, id acknowledge in the debate that some very good players will never have the opportunity to win all irelands due to opportunity, i dont necessarily think they are great, but im open minded on that score and recognise mitigation in opportunity. Others have the opportunity and consistently fail so id stick with my original premise to be honest that those players cant be considered great. Its Sam and greatness or making lists of the best players never to win an all ireland unfortunately.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 15:41:25 2089357 Link 0 |
So to follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, the All-Star awards should be automatically given to the All-Ireland winners ??
yelowbelly (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 29/03/2018 17:47:39 2089396 Link 0 |
Hes a rep for new balance sports gear.
GGdub (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 29/03/2018 19:24:17 2089404 Link 0 |
All stars aren't a real thing to my mind mate, pony show.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 20:03:05 2089411 Link 0 |
To be fair I normally agree with you but I don't in this instance. If Peter Canavan finished his career without an All Ireland you wouldn't consider him great ? Honestly? You put Eoghan O Gara for example who has a few medals ahead of the likes Ciaran McDonald or Mattie Forde? purely because he was fortunate enough to be on a successful Dublin team? Individual sports might measure greatness by their haul of medals but not team sports. Jimmy Traore won a champions league medal... westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 29/03/2018 20:43:00 2089418 Link 1 |
But that's a hypothetical situation mate Peter Canavan proved his greatness by winning, his contribution was telling, which just illustrates my point. As for O Gara, he has a right to make a case for himself for being a great player, he's succeeded at the top level and has more national titles then many, i actually liken him to Donaghey limited players, but their contribution to success has been tangible and deserved, We all like to look at skillful players like McDonald or Forde, but Donaghey and O Gara and players of that style and profile have claims to greatness through contribution and consistent success. Its chicken and egg do great players make a great team, great team make great players. My opinion is neither until they win Sam. TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 21:31:25 2089428 Link 0 |
For me greatness is measured by seeing something your average sport man just can't do, The likes of Declan Browne of Tipp or Ciaran MacDonald those boys had that magic but they didn't have a team capable of winning Sam so you'd not consider them great? If Connolly was born in Carlow hed never win an All Ireland hed still be a great player. westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 29/03/2018 21:55:33 2089432 Link 3 |
With respect struggling at this stage to repeat the same opinion in different ways to the same point by different posters mate I've covered it all in posts above! Carlow would certainly rising mate! ;) TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 22:21:34 2089439 Link 0 |
If a Kerry player had lost four All Ireland finals mate like Lee Keegan or two like McDonald, or Dermot Early, would they be considered great players in the Kingdom mate? In reality?
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 22:29:26 2089441 Link 0 |
in fairness now they fairly hammered the majority of teams up till the last 2 seasons, you arent giving them due credit..if we are so much better than explain how we find it so difficult almost every time?..lots of teams are great without winning..is ciaran mcdonald not great?
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 29/03/2018 22:59:53 2089444 Link 0 |