National Forum

Diarmuid Connolly

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I dont necessarily subscribe to that point of view, i think there are teams out there both historically and currently who are good enough to win all irelands in fact they are contesting them that havent and have failed consistently to, they clearly have good players, i just dispute that these players are great because ultimately they failed, or lacked something mentally, psychologically to succeed. Your post puts forth the premise that their is a glass ceiling there, there could be for some counties and i acknowledge that. But say for the current Mayo team or the one that contested finals in the 90s or the Kildare team of 98, were both good enough to win All Irelands yes, did they? no. Something was lacking. Its the difference between good and great players.

Take Dermot Connolly he was part of a team that won an All Ireland after 16 years, he was able to deal with the mental pressure of that burden the fear of failure in what was more probably more of a limited Dublin team in 2011, then others he has won in. There is a difference there between him and say someone like Lee Keegan, McDonalad or Dermot Early they couldnt match an achievement like that, it whats makes some players great and others good players. Perosnally i wouldnt say there is much difference in quality in the Dublin 2011 team and historic, current Mayo and Kildare teams. Thus until say someone like Keegan wins an Ireland and he has lost what four finals now, he cant be considered a great player like someone like Connolly given his achievements in the game, there just isnt any comparrison. Just my opinion.

Keegan is a fine player, one of the best in the country, but for me he wont be considered a great player like McDonald or Early until he wins Sam. My opinion in reality really doesnt matter, in fact ill be in the minority, it really doesnt matter, in years to come if he doesnt do it win an All Ireland he will always be open to the fact that he never won the top prize despite having so many opportunists. Lads can call whoever they want great really and obviously every county, particularly unsuccessful ones, will like t call their best players great, but are they really, hmm not for me."
I know what you're trying to say and tbh i'd agree with you in the context of the ''great'' players getting to all irelands and having a major platform to showcase their talent and possibly win the all ireland. Take Declan Browne, Forde etc. if they had the players around them to allow them that platform they may be considered greats!!!! its too early for Keegan for example but i'd certainly say he has the attributes of an exceptional talent and maybe a great some day. although he hasn't won an all ireland he's been inspirational in those games. which some could say is the sign of a great. albeit far too early to talk like that!!

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 28/03/2018 15:42:25    2089073

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Replying To kildare73:  "I suppose we will just differ on this but I still don't go along with your premise. Everyone by virtue of logic can't be a winner but individuals still stand out. After that it's an opinions game amongst us all as to who we regard as great or not. That's what makes debates interesting."
People will have different criteria of what constitutes great, it may be a good player, with no material success like a Keegan or whoever, i think thats fair enough particularly if say you are from Mayo.

What i look is a balance between a good player and materiel success relative to context and opportunity.

In cases like Connolly and Keegan etc, an ALL Ireland winning medal has to come into mix as a key factor in determining greatness, given teams and opportunity, which is where this particular debate started i think on whether Keegan was a great player or not in comparison to Connolly, not even close in my opinion.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2018 16:03:21    2089077

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Funny though isn't

Many wouldn't describe a team as great if they didn't win an AI

Even teams that have won a single AI wouldn't be considered great until they won back to backs or won a few titles across a decade.

But an individual can be considered great without winning a thing.

It's a strange one."
in a 15 man plus subs sport one individual can only have so much influence in fairness....the dutch 74 team and the brazil teams of the 80s are considered great despite not winning a thing, i think most people will consider this mayo team pretty special

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/03/2018 17:32:18    2089108

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Replying To alano12:  "in a 15 man plus subs sport one individual can only have so much influence in fairness....the dutch 74 team and the brazil teams of the 80s are considered great despite not winning a thing, i think most people will consider this mayo team pretty special"
I think they'll be more infamous than famous

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 28/03/2018 17:37:35    2089113

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Replying To jimbodub:  "I think they'll be more infamous than famous"
bills of the 90s another one, potentially but some great players on this team no doubt, and if we are considered one of the best teams of all time than surely based on their games against us this mayo team must be considered right up there as a great side?

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 28/03/2018 17:49:18    2089117

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Replying To TheUsername:  "People will have different criteria of what constitutes great, it may be a good player, with no material success like a Keegan or whoever, i think thats fair enough particularly if say you are from Mayo.

What i look is a balance between a good player and materiel success relative to context and opportunity.

In cases like Connolly and Keegan etc, an ALL Ireland winning medal has to come into mix as a key factor in determining greatness, given teams and opportunity, which is where this particular debate started i think on whether Keegan was a great player or not in comparison to Connolly, not even close in my opinion."
So by your logic a player who has multiple All Ireland Medals but who may never have even played in an Ireland final is a better player than than some of those unfortunate enough to be born in counties that haven't reached the holy grail. So the likes of Declan Browne who won two All Stars and almost single handled carried Tipperary for yrs is inferior to a guy who wears number 26 for an All Ireland winning side?

dubarra (Wicklow) - Posts: 541 - 29/03/2018 07:13:01    2089236

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Replying To alano12:  "bills of the 90s another one, potentially but some great players on this team no doubt, and if we are considered one of the best teams of all time than surely based on their games against us this mayo team must be considered right up there as a great side?"
They have managed to compete against Dublin but haven't won a national title and it's been zero titles won since Rochford has taken over. They have struggled to beat teams in the back door from lower division and they have a dismal league record and very poor home record, all of the above isn't the mark of a great team.

No doubt they've managed to compete with Dublin very well but that's papering over a lot of stuff and teams 100% should be judged on silverware won not teams that can compete with Dublin when we're talking about great teams.

As I said I think they could get close enough this year but it's coming to the end of this team IMO and I think they'll go down as infamous rather than famous..

I can see the TG4 documentary on them now in about 10 years time and the main tone won't be winning.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 29/03/2018 09:34:57    2089259

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He plays and everyone talks about him.

He doesn't play and everyone talks about him.

#itsalldermosfault

witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 29/03/2018 10:20:17    2089266

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What is Diarmuid's occupation?

TheDigger (USA) - Posts: 84 - 29/03/2018 14:45:55    2089338

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Replying To TheUsername:  "People will have different criteria of what constitutes great, it may be a good player, with no material success like a Keegan or whoever, i think thats fair enough particularly if say you are from Mayo.

What i look is a balance between a good player and materiel success relative to context and opportunity.

In cases like Connolly and Keegan etc, an ALL Ireland winning medal has to come into mix as a key factor in determining greatness, given teams and opportunity, which is where this particular debate started i think on whether Keegan was a great player or not in comparison to Connolly, not even close in my opinion."
You changed your criteria as the debate heatened up. You were pretty black up until the last few posts.

TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 29/03/2018 14:50:21    2089340

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Replying To TheFlaker:  "You changed your criteria as the debate heatened up. You were pretty black up until the last few posts."
I didn't really, id acknowledge in the debate that some very good players will never have the opportunity to win all irelands due to opportunity, i dont necessarily think they are great, but im open minded on that score and recognise mitigation in opportunity. Others have the opportunity and consistently fail so id stick with my original premise to be honest that those players cant be considered great. Its Sam and greatness or making lists of the best players never to win an all ireland unfortunately.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 15:41:25    2089357

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I didn't really, id acknowledge in the debate that some very good players will never have the opportunity to win all irelands due to opportunity, i dont necessarily think they are great, but im open minded on that score and recognise mitigation in opportunity. Others have the opportunity and consistently fail so id stick with my original premise to be honest that those players cant be considered great. Its Sam and greatness or making lists of the best players never to win an all ireland unfortunately."
So to follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, the All-Star awards should be automatically given to the All-Ireland winners ??

yelowbelly (Wexford) - Posts: 409 - 29/03/2018 17:47:39    2089396

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Replying To TheDigger:  "What is Diarmuid's occupation?"
Hes a rep for new balance sports gear.

GGdub (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 29/03/2018 19:24:17    2089404

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Replying To yelowbelly:  "So to follow your argument to it's logical conclusion, the All-Star awards should be automatically given to the All-Ireland winners ??"
All stars aren't a real thing to my mind mate, pony show.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 20:03:05    2089411

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I didn't really, id acknowledge in the debate that some very good players will never have the opportunity to win all irelands due to opportunity, i dont necessarily think they are great, but im open minded on that score and recognise mitigation in opportunity. Others have the opportunity and consistently fail so id stick with my original premise to be honest that those players cant be considered great. Its Sam and greatness or making lists of the best players never to win an all ireland unfortunately."
To be fair I normally agree with you but I don't in this instance.
If Peter Canavan finished his career without an All Ireland you wouldn't consider him great ? Honestly?
You put Eoghan O Gara for example who has a few medals ahead of the likes Ciaran McDonald or Mattie Forde? purely because he was fortunate enough to be on a successful Dublin team?
Individual sports might measure greatness by their haul of medals but not team sports.
Jimmy Traore won a champions league medal...

westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 29/03/2018 20:43:00    2089418

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Replying To westkerry:  "To be fair I normally agree with you but I don't in this instance.
If Peter Canavan finished his career without an All Ireland you wouldn't consider him great ? Honestly?
You put Eoghan O Gara for example who has a few medals ahead of the likes Ciaran McDonald or Mattie Forde? purely because he was fortunate enough to be on a successful Dublin team?
Individual sports might measure greatness by their haul of medals but not team sports.
Jimmy Traore won a champions league medal..."
But that's a hypothetical situation mate Peter Canavan proved his greatness by winning, his contribution was telling, which just illustrates my point.

As for O Gara, he has a right to make a case for himself for being a great player, he's succeeded at the top level and has more national titles then many, i actually liken him to Donaghey limited players, but their contribution to success has been tangible and deserved, We all like to look at skillful players like McDonald or Forde, but Donaghey and O Gara and players of that style and profile have claims to greatness through contribution and consistent success. Its chicken and egg do great players make a great team, great team make great players. My opinion is neither until they win Sam.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 21:31:25    2089428

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Replying To TheUsername:  "But that's a hypothetical situation mate Peter Canavan proved his greatness by winning, his contribution was telling, which just illustrates my point.

As for O Gara, he has a right to make a case for himself for being a great player, he's succeeded at the top level and has more national titles then many, i actually liken him to Donaghey limited players, but their contribution to success has been tangible and deserved, We all like to look at skillful players like McDonald or Forde, but Donaghey and O Gara and players of that style and profile have claims to greatness through contribution and consistent success. Its chicken and egg do great players make a great team, great team make great players. My opinion is neither until they win Sam."
For me greatness is measured by seeing something your average sport man just can't do, The likes of Declan Browne of Tipp or Ciaran MacDonald those boys had that magic but they didn't have a team capable of winning Sam so you'd not consider them great?
If Connolly was born in Carlow hed never win an All Ireland hed still be a great player.

westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 29/03/2018 21:55:33    2089432

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Replying To westkerry:  "For me greatness is measured by seeing something your average sport man just can't do, The likes of Declan Browne of Tipp or Ciaran MacDonald those boys had that magic but they didn't have a team capable of winning Sam so you'd not consider them great?
If Connolly was born in Carlow hed never win an All Ireland hed still be a great player."
With respect struggling at this stage to repeat the same opinion in different ways to the same point by different posters mate I've covered it all in posts above!

Carlow would certainly rising mate! ;)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 22:21:34    2089439

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Replying To westkerry:  "For me greatness is measured by seeing something your average sport man just can't do, The likes of Declan Browne of Tipp or Ciaran MacDonald those boys had that magic but they didn't have a team capable of winning Sam so you'd not consider them great?
If Connolly was born in Carlow hed never win an All Ireland hed still be a great player."
If a Kerry player had lost four All Ireland finals mate like Lee Keegan or two like McDonald, or Dermot Early, would they be considered great players in the Kingdom mate? In reality?

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 29/03/2018 22:29:26    2089441

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Replying To jimbodub:  "They have managed to compete against Dublin but haven't won a national title and it's been zero titles won since Rochford has taken over. They have struggled to beat teams in the back door from lower division and they have a dismal league record and very poor home record, all of the above isn't the mark of a great team.

No doubt they've managed to compete with Dublin very well but that's papering over a lot of stuff and teams 100% should be judged on silverware won not teams that can compete with Dublin when we're talking about great teams.

As I said I think they could get close enough this year but it's coming to the end of this team IMO and I think they'll go down as infamous rather than famous..

I can see the TG4 documentary on them now in about 10 years time and the main tone won't be winning."
in fairness now they fairly hammered the majority of teams up till the last 2 seasons, you arent giving them due credit..if we are so much better than explain how we find it so difficult almost every time?..lots of teams are great without winning..is ciaran mcdonald not great?

alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 29/03/2018 22:59:53    2089444

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