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Replying To TheFlaker: "Yep we will agree to disagree. You also stated Kilkenny was the best player in the country. He was absolutely roasted by Keegan on the biggest day of them all. So I won't agree with that either! Kilkenny is excellent but if you gave me the choice of 3 Dublin players he wouldn't be one of them." Fair play mate, thats fine we will keep him so!! :D
Like i said that dynamic between Connolly, Kilkenny and Keegan i think won the day for us, roasting Kilkenny meant he couldn't roast Connolly! Just my opinion is all.
Out of curiosity which three Dublin players would go for?
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 20/03/2018 11:13:11
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Replying To TheUsername: "Fair play mate, thats fine we will keep him so!! :D
Like i said that dynamic between Connolly, Kilkenny and Keegan i think won the day for us, roasting Kilkenny meant he couldn't roast Connolly! Just my opinion is all.
Out of curiosity which three Dublin players would go for?" My point is Keegan is the best player in the country!! I'd take more than 3 but if I had to choose now for my own team right now it would be McCarthy, Fenton and one from Rock/Mannion/ O Callaghan.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 20/03/2018 13:58:48
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Replying To TheFlaker: "My point is Keegan is the best player in the country!! I'd take more than 3 but if I had to choose now for my own team right now it would be McCarthy, Fenton and one from Rock/Mannion/ O Callaghan." He is a fine player and no mistake he would definitely be in any conversation about the best player in the country.
I worry a bit about Keegan, its not good having hip surgery at his age and he plays so much ball, i was amazed to see him play in Castlebar hopefully that concern proves unwarranted.
All the above are fine players.
Id still prefer Dermo and Kilkenny start over the three forwards, but thats me. They are the conductors of the orchestra. That said Con could develop into something very special.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 20/03/2018 14:52:30
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Replying To TheUsername: "He is a fine player and no mistake he would definitely be in any conversation about the best player in the country.
I worry a bit about Keegan, its not good having hip surgery at his age and he plays so much ball, i was amazed to see him play in Castlebar hopefully that concern proves unwarranted.
All the above are fine players.
Id still prefer Dermo and Kilkenny start over the three forwards, but thats me. They are the conductors of the orchestra. That said Con could develop into something very special." Yep I would worry for Keegan as well. Lot of our lads are older than their years training wise.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 20/03/2018 15:53:23
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Yep I would worry for Keegan as well. Lot of our lads are older than their years training wise." Nice to see a decent debate on here without it turning into a slanging match. At the minute we'd take about twelve of the Dubs but maybe things will improve.
Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 20/03/2018 16:33:56
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Replying To TheFlaker: "My point is Keegan is the best player in the country!! I'd take more than 3 but if I had to choose now for my own team right now it would be McCarthy, Fenton and one from Rock/Mannion/ O Callaghan." Nonsense ' keegans a great player.but to claim hes the best in country.the 2 best players so far this year are brian fenton and ciaran kilkenny. no one off any other team in the country has even come close.
GGdub (Dublin) - Posts: 260 - 20/03/2018 19:21:18
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Replying To GGdub: "Nonsense ' keegans a great player.but to claim hes the best in country.the 2 best players so far this year are brian fenton and ciaran kilkenny. no one off any other team in the country has even come close." Keegan fit marks doesn't give Kilkenny a kick and outscores him just like last year. Same as he did to Connolly. Fenton is unreal, but as an all round defender and attacker nobody is better than Keegan, as he proves time and time again. To call it nonsense is just silly.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 21/03/2018 18:44:36
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Keegan fit marks doesn't give Kilkenny a kick and outscores him just like last year. Same as he did to Connolly. Fenton is unreal, but as an all round defender and attacker nobody is better than Keegan, as he proves time and time again. To call it nonsense is just silly." Don't think he outscored Connolly in either game in 2016 mate. To be fair Dermo didn't play a full game in 17. So by your rationelle does that make Dermo a better marker then Keegan. :D
I think Keegan's marking of Kilkenny was brilliant but ultimately flawed, Keegan got a goal and is a fine footballer but was taken out of positition around Croke Park at times. I think once Dublin cottoned on to the man marking job, Dermo was called in to just slot into Kilkenny position relatively unopposed. I think Kilkenny took one for the team, but ultimately Dermo tipped the scales.
Keegan is a fine footballer a brilliant defender and attacker and like you he would be any conversation around best player in Ireland.
However if you look at the last two finals you could argue that his influence also hampered Mayo, the red card and the penalty in 2016 and for me the Keegan, Kilkenny and Connolly dynamic in 2017 won day day for us. Given the above assertion can be backed by medals I think highlights my points. In a lot of ways you can say that Keegan's influence on the last two finals were in 2016 personally disappointing I'm sure and 2017 I think his deployment on Kilkenny was a tactical mistake for Mayo, leaving Connolly the freedom of Croke Park.
Just playing Devils advocate here, obviously the debate will vary and differ from a Dublin and Mayo tinted glasses perspective.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 21/03/2018 19:28:11
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Replying To TheUsername: "Don't think he outscored Connolly in either game in 2016 mate. To be fair Dermo didn't play a full game in 17. So by your rationelle does that make Dermo a better marker then Keegan. :D
I think Keegan's marking of Kilkenny was brilliant but ultimately flawed, Keegan got a goal and is a fine footballer but was taken out of positition around Croke Park at times. I think once Dublin cottoned on to the man marking job, Dermo was called in to just slot into Kilkenny position relatively unopposed. I think Kilkenny took one for the team, but ultimately Dermo tipped the scales.
Keegan is a fine footballer a brilliant defender and attacker and like you he would be any conversation around best player in Ireland.
However if you look at the last two finals you could argue that his influence also hampered Mayo, the red card and the penalty in 2016 and for me the Keegan, Kilkenny and Connolly dynamic in 2017 won day day for us. Given the above assertion can be backed by medals I think highlights my points. In a lot of ways you can say that Keegan's influence on the last two finals were in 2016 personally disappointing I'm sure and 2017 I think his deployment on Kilkenny was a tactical mistake for Mayo, leaving Connolly the freedom of Croke Park.
Just playing Devils advocate here, obviously the debate will vary and differ from a Dublin and Mayo tinted glasses perspective." Fair point but Kilkenny was running the show for Dublin all year until the final. If you had put Keegan on Connolly Kilkenny would have had the run of Croke Park. Keegan from half back marked one of the top five players in the country out of the game and still found time to score his teams only goal. The fact that he ultimately didn't win a medal is not a reflection on him but on the rest of the team. If we had fifteen of Leroy we'd be going for six in a row.
Llaw_Gyffes (Mayo) - Posts: 1113 - 21/03/2018 20:54:25
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Agreed mate Kilkenny was utterly cleaned out by Lee in the final, I think credit has to go to Rochford as well it was the first time I've ever seen him man marked and he was playing for his fourth medal that day. Not sure if you were Castlebar for our game their but Rochford did the same man marking job on Kilkenny and it was the one and only game Dermo was involved in! (Was stunned to see Keegan picked).
In many ways it was a game of two halves, I thought Dublin got very little luck on the day in the first half with the injury to Jack, McCarthy having to leave midfield. My own opinion was that Gavin had a brain fart starting O Gara and within the first half the ship was leaking, lost our former player of the year in Jack, main play maker man marked, star midfielder sacrificed to half back, on reflection we really should have been put to the sword in the first half.
What changed? In the second half, we got our playmaker back in Dermo free of Keegan for once, moved James back to midfield and recalibrated the half back line. I thought Dublin were by far the better team in the second half, only Keegan's goal made it tight, it was sheer quality. But on reflection Gavin did well creating that dilemma for Keegan and Mayo management.
Your right Keegan is one of the finest players in Ireland, he has had good and bad big days, everyone will have an opinion on who is the best, but it doesn't really matter, I just admire them and it's a joy to watch Keegan play. I suppose one question I would have does he sometimes take one for the team and does that take away from his quality. Could he have made greater impacts in bigger games, not man marking or just being part of the defensive system. For all his ability has he been shackled to take one for the team. Hard to know. I really admire his leadership skills, I think he is the natural leader of that Mayo team.
I wish him a speedy recovery, from his shoulder injury, his body has been through some trauma with hip surgery and now shoulder surgery by the look of it.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 21/03/2018 22:53:50
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Replying To TheFlaker: "My point is Keegan is the best player in the country!! I'd take more than 3 but if I had to choose now for my own team right now it would be McCarthy, Fenton and one from Rock/Mannion/ O Callaghan." That comment is sheer bias. Keegan is a wonderful footballer but is nowhere near the best footballer in the country. Fenton, O'Sullivan, McCarthy and O'Callaghan are 4 dubs that I would prefer over Lee Keegan.
thetribesman15 (Galway) - Posts: 25 - 21/03/2018 23:41:44
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Replying To TheUsername: "Don't think he outscored Connolly in either game in 2016 mate. To be fair Dermo didn't play a full game in 17. So by your rationelle does that make Dermo a better marker then Keegan. :D
I think Keegan's marking of Kilkenny was brilliant but ultimately flawed, Keegan got a goal and is a fine footballer but was taken out of positition around Croke Park at times. I think once Dublin cottoned on to the man marking job, Dermo was called in to just slot into Kilkenny position relatively unopposed. I think Kilkenny took one for the team, but ultimately Dermo tipped the scales.
Keegan is a fine footballer a brilliant defender and attacker and like you he would be any conversation around best player in Ireland.
However if you look at the last two finals you could argue that his influence also hampered Mayo, the red card and the penalty in 2016 and for me the Keegan, Kilkenny and Connolly dynamic in 2017 won day day for us. Given the above assertion can be backed by medals I think highlights my points. In a lot of ways you can say that Keegan's influence on the last two finals were in 2016 personally disappointing I'm sure and 2017 I think his deployment on Kilkenny was a tactical mistake for Mayo, leaving Connolly the freedom of Croke Park.
Just playing Devils advocate here, obviously the debate will vary and differ from a Dublin and Mayo tinted glasses perspective." Ah come on. You are counting the penalty as scoring. I am talking about a personal battle from play. Same v Kilkenny last year as well. Cleaned him and got a goal from play.
In the 2 games in 2015 Keegan again kept Connolly quiet and ourscored him. You can't count penalties as they were nothing to do with a personal battle. Anyway we are biased towards our own men.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 22/03/2018 02:23:39
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After his proposed transfer to a Galway club fell through its unlikely Gavin is going to hold him in such high regard is it?
WunderBar (Galway) - Posts: 290 - 22/03/2018 08:22:05
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Replying To TheUsername: "Don't think he outscored Connolly in either game in 2016 mate. To be fair Dermo didn't play a full game in 17. So by your rationelle does that make Dermo a better marker then Keegan. :D
I think Keegan's marking of Kilkenny was brilliant but ultimately flawed, Keegan got a goal and is a fine footballer but was taken out of positition around Croke Park at times. I think once Dublin cottoned on to the man marking job, Dermo was called in to just slot into Kilkenny position relatively unopposed. I think Kilkenny took one for the team, but ultimately Dermo tipped the scales.
Keegan is a fine footballer a brilliant defender and attacker and like you he would be any conversation around best player in Ireland.
However if you look at the last two finals you could argue that his influence also hampered Mayo, the red card and the penalty in 2016 and for me the Keegan, Kilkenny and Connolly dynamic in 2017 won day day for us. Given the above assertion can be backed by medals I think highlights my points. In a lot of ways you can say that Keegan's influence on the last two finals were in 2016 personally disappointing I'm sure and 2017 I think his deployment on Kilkenny was a tactical mistake for Mayo, leaving Connolly the freedom of Croke Park.
Just playing Devils advocate here, obviously the debate will vary and differ from a Dublin and Mayo tinted glasses perspective." Ah come on. You are counting the penalty as scoring. I am talking about a personal battle from play. Same v Kilkenny last year as well. Cleaned him and got a goal from play.
In the 2 games in 2015 Keegan again kept Connolly quiet and ourscored him. You can't count penalties as they were nothing to do with a personal battle. Anyway we are biased towards our own men.
TheFlaker (Mayo) - Posts: 7907 - 22/03/2018 08:46:27
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Replying To TheUsername: "Agreed mate Kilkenny was utterly cleaned out by Lee in the final, I think credit has to go to Rochford as well it was the first time I've ever seen him man marked and he was playing for his fourth medal that day. Not sure if you were Castlebar for our game their but Rochford did the same man marking job on Kilkenny and it was the one and only game Dermo was involved in! (Was stunned to see Keegan picked).
In many ways it was a game of two halves, I thought Dublin got very little luck on the day in the first half with the injury to Jack, McCarthy having to leave midfield. My own opinion was that Gavin had a brain fart starting O Gara and within the first half the ship was leaking, lost our former player of the year in Jack, main play maker man marked, star midfielder sacrificed to half back, on reflection we really should have been put to the sword in the first half.
What changed? In the second half, we got our playmaker back in Dermo free of Keegan for once, moved James back to midfield and recalibrated the half back line. I thought Dublin were by far the better team in the second half, only Keegan's goal made it tight, it was sheer quality. But on reflection Gavin did well creating that dilemma for Keegan and Mayo management.
Your right Keegan is one of the finest players in Ireland, he has had good and bad big days, everyone will have an opinion on who is the best, but it doesn't really matter, I just admire them and it's a joy to watch Keegan play. I suppose one question I would have does he sometimes take one for the team and does that take away from his quality. Could he have made greater impacts in bigger games, not man marking or just being part of the defensive system. For all his ability has he been shackled to take one for the team. Hard to know. I really admire his leadership skills, I think he is the natural leader of that Mayo team.
I wish him a speedy recovery, from his shoulder injury, his body has been through some trauma with hip surgery and now shoulder surgery by the look of it." Let's plat Devil's advocate, and list three Mayo players that we Dubs would take. I absolutely guarantee that the first name on everyone's list is Lee Keegan.
I'd have:
1. Lee Keegan. As an all rounder he's one of the best there is in the modern game. Right attitude too. If Mayo had two of him, we would not have three in a row.
2. Kevin McLoughlin. Probably the most underrated player in the country.
3. Tom Parsons. Would be a great pairing to Fenton in midfield.
Cillian O'Connor - Not needed, although any other county has him on their starting 15. Dublin are unique, as we have Deano.
Andy is another consideration, but we have a load of younger more mobile forwards, so we could afford to be without him.
A O'Shea? We couldn't take him, as the whole county of Mayo would combust at the sight of him in a Dubs Jersey. Good all-rounder but therein lies the issue - where would we play him? Maybe Midfield, but I think Parsons is a better fit for our game plan. Can't see Aidan adapting to The Process easily.
Jaden (Dublin) - Posts: 139 - 22/03/2018 09:11:30
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Replying To thetribesman15: "That comment is sheer bias. Keegan is a wonderful footballer but is nowhere near the best footballer in the country. Fenton, O'Sullivan, McCarthy and O'Callaghan are 4 dubs that I would prefer over Lee Keegan." Keegan is definitely in the top 2 or 3 players in the country. McCarthy had a great last quarter in final last year and is exceptional but I rate Keegan above him, O'Callaghan is not at Keegans level yet(scary how good he is though), I'd have Keegan over O'Sullivan any day. Fenton is the only player I think is on a par Keegan and maybe slightly above him. all are my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree.
reffingmad (Roscommon) - Posts: 371 - 22/03/2018 09:46:29
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What does Dean Rock need to do to be rated by anyone, including Dublin supporters? 7 points in an All Ireland Final, 4 from play. Missed a few frees and composed himself to convert some afterwards including the winner under enormous pressure. McCarthy kicked two from midfield but Rock was my man of the match. Dublin would have probably won without McCarthy, with their squad they mightn't directly replace him, but they'd have a winning system. Without Rock it would have been a lot more difficult.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 22/03/2018 09:56:23
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Replying To Jaden: "Let's plat Devil's advocate, and list three Mayo players that we Dubs would take. I absolutely guarantee that the first name on everyone's list is Lee Keegan.
I'd have:
1. Lee Keegan. As an all rounder he's one of the best there is in the modern game. Right attitude too. If Mayo had two of him, we would not have three in a row.
2. Kevin McLoughlin. Probably the most underrated player in the country.
3. Tom Parsons. Would be a great pairing to Fenton in midfield.
Cillian O'Connor - Not needed, although any other county has him on their starting 15. Dublin are unique, as we have Deano.
Andy is another consideration, but we have a load of younger more mobile forwards, so we could afford to be without him.
A O'Shea? We couldn't take him, as the whole county of Mayo would combust at the sight of him in a Dubs Jersey. Good all-rounder but therein lies the issue - where would we play him? Maybe Midfield, but I think Parsons is a better fit for our game plan. Can't see Aidan adapting to The Process easily." Not to be disrespectful, but i would only take Keegan if im being honest.
Mayo have fine expireneced players. But if you take age and headroom for development Keegan is really the only one i would be be envious of, especially with Jimmy Mc playing in midfield these days.
A case could be made for C O Connor, if im honest i dont think he has kicked on the way i would have expected as an all round forward and i think he would struggle to earn a game. A case could be made for Paddy Durcan as well given his age, i like Durcan.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 22/03/2018 10:30:42
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Replying To TheFlaker: "Ah come on. You are counting the penalty as scoring. I am talking about a personal battle from play. Same v Kilkenny last year as well. Cleaned him and got a goal from play.
In the 2 games in 2015 Keegan again kept Connolly quiet and ourscored him. You can't count penalties as they were nothing to do with a personal battle. Anyway we are biased towards our own men." I would disagree with you, yes i do count the penalty Connolly had shown Keegan his heels was bearing down on goal and he was pulled down. Keegan was sent off and left his team with 14 men. Now as personal battles go its very hard to argue that Keegan was the winner there.
I agree wholly Lee cleaned out Kilkenny, in a way i think its brought him on a bit myself, but absolutely man marked him out of the game. I would say Keegan has always struggled on Connolly though, we wont sling mud, but we remember the first game of the semi final in 15, Connolly stopped by any means and was rightly red carded for loosing his head.
I dont think he has ever really gotten the better of Connolly if im honest, i don think he has made less influential to Dublin the way that he did with Kilkenny.
They are a long time on the road together 13, 15 semi, 16 final, 17 final were he made vital contributions. To be honest im sturggling to think of a game Keegan cleaned out Connolly.
Its impossible to measure though mate and is perceptional.
Keegans an excellent player and put his hand up for the best in the counrty but i think you are being a bit Mayocentric here.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 22/03/2018 10:43:11
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Replying To Jaden: "Let's plat Devil's advocate, and list three Mayo players that we Dubs would take. I absolutely guarantee that the first name on everyone's list is Lee Keegan.
I'd have:
1. Lee Keegan. As an all rounder he's one of the best there is in the modern game. Right attitude too. If Mayo had two of him, we would not have three in a row.
2. Kevin McLoughlin. Probably the most underrated player in the country.
3. Tom Parsons. Would be a great pairing to Fenton in midfield.
Cillian O'Connor - Not needed, although any other county has him on their starting 15. Dublin are unique, as we have Deano.
Andy is another consideration, but we have a load of younger more mobile forwards, so we could afford to be without him.
A O'Shea? We couldn't take him, as the whole county of Mayo would combust at the sight of him in a Dubs Jersey. Good all-rounder but therein lies the issue - where would we play him? Maybe Midfield, but I think Parsons is a better fit for our game plan. Can't see Aidan adapting to The Process easily." We wouldn't be taking cillian O'Connor as we already have a few free takers but thanks all the same though.
We'd take parsons or Keegan alright.
KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 22/03/2018 10:43:35
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