National Forum

Two Tier Competition

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My preference is what I've mentioned already. This topic has been given way too much focus.

Another option is to run the provincial championships as follows:
Munster - 1 group of 4.
Connaught - 1 group of 4.
Leinster - 2 groups of 4.
Ulster - 2 groups of 4

Provincial finals for top 2 in Munster and Connaught. Provincial semi-finals for top 2 in Leinster and Ulster.

Tier 2 - 2 groups of 4 (8 counties below the provincial championships).

• The top 2 from all provincial groups, 12 teams, will qualify for the Top 16 (4 groups of 4)
• The third placed teams from all provincial groups will play off for 3 places in the Top 16.
• The Tier 2 winner will also qualify for the Top 16.

Provincial championships promotion/relegation:
• The tier 2 winner will be automatically promoted to their provincial championship in place of the bottom team. Leinster and Ulster would have to have a play-off between the bottom teams from both of their respective groups.
• The tier 2 runner-up should contest a promotion/relegation play-off against the team second bottom.

I've made no mention of New York. The powers that be can munch over those finer details! ;)

legendzxix (Kerry) - 13/11/2017 20:00:46    2062151

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@legendzxix

You feel this tread has been giving way too much focus but yet the last 2 posts are from you!

Ban (Westmeath) - 13/11/2017 20:44:12    2062154

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I can't believe this conversation is raging on. The Super 8 is only a start. Duffy mentioned they might have to look at tiers. There's no appetite to end provincial championships.

I think I've outlined a reasonable solution for a Top 16. All counties get two bites at the cherry of qualifying. Teams in the second championship have the carrot of a top tier championship placing in the following year. The second championship can be either group stage or straight knockout depending on common and majority agreement."
It's just a discussion.

Your system would definitely be an improvement on the Super 8.

It's not without flaws but sure won't every system have them.

As you say, we've the Super 8 for the next 3 years. Let's see how they play out.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 13/11/2017 20:47:53    2062155

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Replying To Whammo86:  "It's just a discussion.

Your system would definitely be an improvement on the Super 8.

It's not without flaws but sure won't every system have them.

As you say, we've the Super 8 for the next 3 years. Let's see how they play out."
I know it's only a discussion. As the GAA has taken huge steps to bring in group stages in both codes, I thought discussion on here could move away from these format discussions.

An expansion to 16 is realistic. McGuinness-Kelly have spoken of giving second championship winners a top spot in the following year.

If reigning All-Ireland champions, tier 2 winners and provincial finalists are entering the top tier competition, my suggestion covers all of these.

There is an imbalance of numbers and strength in provinces. All one can do is try and offer some fairness through seeding based on league placing.

legendzxix (Kerry) - 14/11/2017 18:34:16    2062347

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Replying To legendzxix:  "I know it's only a discussion. As the GAA has taken huge steps to bring in group stages in both codes, I thought discussion on here could move away from these format discussions.

An expansion to 16 is realistic. McGuinness-Kelly have spoken of giving second championship winners a top spot in the following year.

If reigning All-Ireland champions, tier 2 winners and provincial finalists are entering the top tier competition, my suggestion covers all of these.

There is an imbalance of numbers and strength in provinces. All one can do is try and offer some fairness through seeding based on league placing."
Yeah to be fair there are 2 more pressing topics that the GAA needs to sort.

The calendar, this April club window is stupid.

With more county games in the summer how should club games fit in around them. I think the GAA should almost be giving guidelines of what it expects from county boards in terms of the games program they are providing. With funding incentives for those providing a good quality set of fixtures for their players.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 14/11/2017 21:22:49    2062372

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I enjoy treads like this cause I think the super 8 is just another dirty hack and I like to see the options people are thinking of.

Remember poor souls like us Westmeath men @legendzxix! Super 8 me ar*e. Train like professionals for a few meaningful games during the winter.

Ban (Westmeath) - 14/11/2017 21:28:57    2062373

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Yeah to be fair there are 2 more pressing topics that the GAA needs to sort.

The calendar, this April club window is stupid.

With more county games in the summer how should club games fit in around them. I think the GAA should almost be giving guidelines of what it expects from county boards in terms of the games program they are providing. With funding incentives for those providing a good quality set of fixtures for their players."
Kerry are considering starting the County Championship in September. This is the main championship with divisional clubs like South Kerry and West Kerry that are a district representation of non-senior clubs.

There will be rounds of club championships in April and early May.

legendzxix (Kerry) - 15/11/2017 18:22:57    2062540

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Replying To Ban:  "I enjoy treads like this cause I think the super 8 is just another dirty hack and I like to see the options people are thinking of.

Remember poor souls like us Westmeath men @legendzxix! Super 8 me ar*e. Train like professionals for a few meaningful games during the winter."
I've watched many Kerry hurling games in lower league and lower tiered championship level. The tier 2 in should be good for Kerry hurling.

If I was from Limerick or Waterford, I think a second championship offering the winner a guaranteed place in the top 16 in the following year would be a good opportunity.

legendzxix (Kerry) - 15/11/2017 18:26:31    2062541

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Kerry are considering starting the County Championship in September. This is the main championship with divisional clubs like South Kerry and West Kerry that are a district representation of non-senior clubs.

There will be rounds of club championships in April and early May."
In Meath it's going to be a real struggle.

There's 5 rounds of group games currently and 4 knockout rounds for us. Plus hurling which will be at least 5 rounds if they bring in a planned shortened championship.

If Meath get to the Super 8 I don't know when they play those fixtures.

I absolutely loathe April for championship.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 15/11/2017 19:04:26    2062549

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Back on topic - combining NFL, Prov and AI Championships -
Top 16 - Divide into 3 groups of 5, 5 and 6.
The fives only play round robins as well as the six, leaving all with a 10-match schedule in one table.
Top 11 to AI Last 16 (seeded 1 to 11), Bottom 5 go down.
Other 16 - Also 3 groups 5, 5 and 6 - 10 matches per team.
Top 10 (seeded 12 to 21) to Promotion Playoff Rd - 5 winners go up and to AI Last 16.
Prov Championship KO pairings double as intra-div NFL matches- but may require additional stand alone pairings.

omahant (USA) - 16/11/2017 05:23:57    2062603

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I have tried to say before, when you are explaining a format too much, you are losing. It has to be a quick sell of sorts that people can easily identify what stage a championship is at and what is on the line.

It'll be interesting to see what crowds counties get in hurling for their two home games and the finances that might bring. Revenue from two championship home games might encourage football to adopt something similar.

Munster: 1 group of 6
Connaught: 1 group of 5
Leinster: 1 group of 6 and 1 group of 5
Ulster: 2 groups of 5 (London moving to the Ulster championship)

Top 2 in Munster and Connaught into provincial finals.
Top 2 in Leinster and Ulster into provincial semi-finals.

Qualifier Round 1: 6 3rd placed teams.
Qualifier Round 2: 4 losing provincial semi-finalists (from Leinster and Ulster), 3 Round 1 winners and Tier II Championship winners from the year before.
Qualfifier Round 3: 4 losing provincial finalists and 4 Round 2 winners.
Quarter-finals: 4 provincial winners and 4 Round 2 winners.

All teams finishing outside the top 3 in their group will enter a Tier II championship for the remainder of the summer. The winner will be given a qualifier spot in the following year. If the tier II winner finishes in the top 3 in their group, a 3rd placed team can be given a bye to Round 2, possibly determined by league placing or luck of the draw!

legendzxix (Kerry) - 17/11/2017 20:31:07    2062933

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legendzxix (Kerry): you mention Kerry club championship and divisional teams. I have never understood how Kerry run their championship but from what you hear about it it seems to be great in that all players play for their own local club at whatever grade they are in but if you are a good player from a junior club you still get to play in the senior championship with a divisional team. How exactly is this organised ? how do Kerry arrange their fixture schedule to allow players to play for a junior club and a divisional team ?, how does a club being promoted to senior grade fit into this ?, do the divisional teams get much support from people from that area of Kerry ?. I wonder eventually could some concept like this ever be accepted if the senior inter county championship became a tiered competition.

bdbuddah (Meath) - 18/11/2017 10:25:28    2062946

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I won't get too into it. If a divisional club in involved in the county championship, it follows that the intermediate and junior clubs of that district are not in action that weekend.

An Gaeltacht compete in the intermediate championship and are part of the West Kerry divisional side. If An Gaeltacht win the intermediate championship, the leave the West Kerry divisional group and compete in the county championship on their own.

Cork have something similar, Donal Óg has spoken about it in the past when he was calling for a Team Ulster to enter the hurling championship. I think it is worth exploring in hurling but not in football where 32 counties do enter the championship at the moment.

Prior the the hurling group stage, I suggested that there could be 3 divisional counties: Connaught, Ulster and Leinster. I was suggesting that all counties below McCarthy level should have a divisional side. The Ring, Rackard and Meagher Cups were being played early anyways.

What I envisaged was 3 divisional counties entering at the qualifier stage. Let's take Antrim as an example. If Antrim are part of the Ring Championship, they would enter the McCarthy Cup as part of the Ulster divisional county. If Antrim won the Ring Championship and promotion, Antrim would enter the McCarthy Cup on their own while the rest of Ulster would remain within the Ulster division county.

They could possibly be brought into the group stage format that's on the way but it will be a bit more complicated and there does not seem to be any appetite for it.

If division counties in hurling were to be considered, I would recommend reducing the Tier II group to 4 teams playing home and away over 6 rounds. Award the top team as winner without a final. The 3rd placed teams from the provincial groups along with the Tier II runners-up should be drawn against a divisional county in Qualifier Round 1. Qualifier Round 2 should consist of the Tier II winner and 3 Round 1 winners. The 2 Round 2 winners would advance to the quarter-finals to take on the provincial runners-up.

legendzxix (Kerry) - 18/11/2017 15:16:49    2062963

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Regarding Football. GPA members voted against a second tier so 2 tier championship will never get the buy in from players to work and I would be doubtful if fans would give the same level of support to their counties in a B championship.

TirChonaillAbu (Donegal) - 18/11/2017 20:55:52    2062973

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Here is my football proposal.
1 tier system,

TirChonaillAbu (Donegal) - 18/11/2017 20:57:34    2062974

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Current intercounty League format is maintained but run intermittently with provisional championship. Followed by a seeded champions league style All Ireland format with 8 groups of 4 (32) with 1st and 2nd in each group going into last 16 knockout for an All ireland quarter final. 4 provincial winners and top 4 place Div 1 league counties are seeded and will be drawn as top seeds in each group. Next 8 best placed league teams are pooled as 2nd seeds. Next 8 as 3rd seeds and last 8 as 4th seeds.

TirChonaillAbu (Donegal) - 18/11/2017 20:57:55    2062975

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2018 Schedule
Week 8 League round 1 Weekend 23-24 February
Week 9 League round 2
Week 10 Provincial Preliminary round (Lowest placed league counties from previous season and New York)
Week 11 League round 3
Week 12 Provincial Quarter Final
Week 13 League round 4
Week 14 League round 5
Week 15 Provincial Semi Final
Week 16 League round 6
Week 17 League round 7
Week 18 Provincial Final 5th May Bank Holiday weekend
Week 19 All Ireland Championship Group stage, group 4 round 4 (5 counties in this group)
Week 20 All Ireland Championship Group stage round 1
Free Week 21
Week 22 All Ireland Championship Group stage round 2 JUNE Bank Holiday
Week 23 All Ireland Championship Group stage round 3
Free Week 24
Week 25 Last 16: 8 Group winners (and home advantage) V 2nd in group
Free Week 26
Week 27 All Ireland Quarter Final 7-8th July
Free Week 28
Week 29 All Ireland Football Semi-Final
Free Week 30
Week 31 August Bank Holiday All Ireland Football Final

TirChonaillAbu (Donegal) - 18/11/2017 21:15:53    2062976

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2018 Schedule
Week 8 League round 1 Weekend 23-24 February
Week 9 League round 2
Week 10 Provincial Preliminary round and seeded (Lowest placed league counties from previous season and New York)
Week 11 League round 3
Week 12 Provincial Quarter Final
Week 13 League round 4
Week 14 League round 5
Week 15 Provincial Semi Final
Week 16 League round 6
Week 17 League round 7
Week 18 Provincial Final 5th May Bank Holiday weekend
Week 19 All Ireland Championship Group stage, group 4 round 4 (5 counties in this group)
Week 20 All Ireland Championship Group stage round 1

Free Week 21

Week 22 All Ireland Championship Group stage round 2 JUNE Bank Holiday
Week 23 All Ireland Championship Group stage round 3 (16 counties eliminated after this round)

Free Week 24

Week 25 Last 16: 8 Group winners (and home advantage) V 2nd in group

Free Week 26

Week 27 All Ireland Quarter Final 7-8th July

Free Week 28

Week 29 All Ireland Football Semi-Final

Free Week 30

Week 31 August Bank Holiday All Ireland Football Final

TirChonaillAbu (Donegal) - 19/11/2017 12:06:27    2062996

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The provincial championships should be looked on as 6 groups of 4: 2 semi-finals in Munster, 2 semi-finals in Connaught, 4 quarter-finals in Ulster and 4 quarter-finals in Leinster. The 12 winners from these 12 matches should qualify for the top 16. The 12 losers and 8 provincial preliminary round losers should enter 3 qualifying rounds for the final 4 places. Teams should be seeded as follows in the Top 16 group stage: 4 provincial winners, 4 provincial runners-up, 4 losing provincial semi-finalists Leinster and Ulster and 4 Qualifier counties.

legendzxix (Kerry) - 21/11/2017 20:28:42    2063219

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OK Guys, let's find a system that merges the NFL, Prov and AI Championships.
Create two regions - South 16 consisting of Lein and Muns less Louth anc Kilk; and a
North 16 with Uls, Conn plus Louth anc London.
Divide each region into 4 divs of 4 (N1 to N4 and S1 to S4) based on NFL ranking.
Asign ranking of 1 to 4 to each team in each div.
Each 1st and 4th ranked team play all 2nd and 3rd ranked team from 6 of 8 divs across both regions,
Teams avoid 2 of 8 - there is no div 1 v 4, nor div 2 v 3 - so each team plays a handicapped 12-match schedule.
After 12 matches per team, Conference A lists all 16 1st and 4th ranked teams in one league table, while Conference B lists all 2nd and 3rd ranked teams.
The top 10 in each Conference qualify for respective KO Playoffs but must include the 8 div winners automatically.
Note each Conference KO will have non-repeat pairings.
Each Conference 1st rd has 1st v 10th, 2nd v 9th etc to 5th v 6th.
The 3 best winners to Conference SFs with 2 remaining winners to 1 QF.
The 2 Conference Champs meet in the AI Final.
Also, the 8 div winners earn respective league titles and promotion, while the 8 bottom teams go down.
The revised divs will determine the 12-match schedule for the following year.

omahant (USA) - 27/11/2017 05:25:28    2063710

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