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Replying To cjx: "Gavin plays it hard, and deliberately it seems, does not present publicly as an attractive individual, as he comes across soulless in the media, Cluxton the same. This is not the real issue though. There has been thuggery to some extent in GAA forever but I believe that it is decreasing as such. But it is being replaced by what I see as worse. The sneaky, cynical, soulless, win at all costs , total disrespect for rules and the other team, way the game of football is now being played is the issue. In addition there is little or no sportsmanship left as the highest levels (it is closely tied in with this soulless cynicism of win at all costs). Football is a game and as such has rules to define it and make it function/work but to really make any game work well and be attractive in a good-hearted society a reasonable level of sportsmanship is also essential (or most parents, I believe mostly mothers, will not let children take part in what becomes a war where the lack of sportsmanship and empathy/common feeling for the other team as people and thus respect for rules and opposition as individuals (or in other words the true spirit of the game) means this is just an exercise is crude warfare (dystopian is the in word!) and a game with no joy and no happiness or positive sharing. We surely wants a positive happy GAA and membership in the community together. Surely we want a positive happy strong, physically tough but essentially fair rivalry we can all be proud of and gain from. There will always be rivalry which gets out of hand but if GAA does not enforce the rules and base their work on developing and maintaining an underlying positive philosophy on which GAA must be based it will die in the long run. Gavin in his behaviour in public and the cynical win at any cost actions of his team at the end in particular of the final this year stand, in real terms, for nothingness and emptiness (nihilism) and long term vicious slow death for GAA as an organization. The answer is enforce the rules fairly and even handedly at all levels (stop turning a blind eye and twisting and squirming about discipline pushed by media that love viscous controversy) and inculcate/ensure an atmosphere of sportsmanship, respect, sharing and joyous common purpose to keep GAA as what it should be; one of the most positive encouraging body's in Ireland.
To stay relevant and worthy of Ireland stop the vicious heartless win at all cost soulless attitudes now in the GAA or fade into the morass of destructive gang war not a game any more just a media driven pseudo-sporting Mafia." This is very profound.
Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 26/09/2017 23:26:23
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Replying To hill16no1man: "this guy kimmage only seems to pop up in the news to speak negative about any sport be it gaa soccer, rugby cycling.
i dont think i have heard him ever do an article or interview that was not whinging.
i dont even know if he played sport himself or what i just see kimmage complains again after any big event.
he obviously doesnt understand a winning mentality, seems hes annoyed that when gavin was asked about mayo loosing a whole 20 minutes or so after his own team won,hes annoyed that gavin reefrenced loosing the league final to show he knows what its like standing out there after a defeat.
the guy must not be very intelligent if he cannot see that maybe thats what makes gavin so successful that loosing a league final to people like him might be nothing as hes probably a guy who only looks at gaa in august and september but gavin manages dublin all year round and was going for 5 in a row of national league titles and it was his first time not to win the national league title since he took over dublin, so loosing that day was something he used throughout the championship more than likely as fuel to drive the players and himself on.
who is he to demean the national league or who is he to suggest jim gavin doesnt celebrate winning.
people celebrate in different ways, i dont drink so to him he must think i didnt celebrate the all ireland this year because i didnt get smashed,people can celebrate in different ways and not have to jump around the field like a madman, maybe the satisfaction of winning means more to gavin than anybody else maybe he enjoys the moments during the games, maybe he enjoys the moments as a team in the dressing room together, maybe he enjoys celebrating with his family, just because he doesnt give mr kimmage all he wants to see and here gives him no right to try and degrade a persons charachter. narrow minded person is what mr kimmage is portraying himself as.
wheres as jim gavin will continue to enjoy the three in a row in his own way." In this particular discourse i think Kimmage has become over emotional.
However to ask was he ever involved in serious sport is ridiculous, completing the Tour de France in 1986 is a lot tougher on the body than gaa matches! And when people disparage Kimmage they should realise that internationally he is renowned for his role in bringing to light doping in cycling. Many cyclists died from their heart attacks due to their blood being like treacle from EPO and the heart being unable to pump it around the body. Bringing attention to such matters is not whinging.
And unpalatable as it may be for GAA people and Dublin GAA people especially Jim Gavin is only known in Ireland and among emmigrants. This is not to say Kimmage is wrong in calling Gavin classless but those having a go at Kimmage as a whinger and a nobody are far off the mark.
To conclude i feel classless and his depiction of Gavin and Cluxton is wrong but i have a lot of respect for Kimmage. He has guts and that can't be denied.
Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 26/09/2017 23:38:56
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Amuses me to see that the only posters to comment that they don't understand my last post (which was about the long term destructiveness of cynicism and the lack of sportsmanship) were 3 Dubs!
Kimmage is just part of the media babble (and it matters nothing at all if Gavin and Cluxton have no public personality) . I don't care if some journo is annoyed that two amateur sportsmen don't perform the usual circus act that the media demand these days in front of a microphone .
My belief is that the sneaky 'win at all/any costs' cynicism (and those who condone and/or encourage it) which now exists at the highest level will destroy Gaelic Football in the longer term.
That is much more important in my opinion than the public persona of GAA stars (most of whom have great personalities when asked their opinions)!
To combat total cynicism the administration of GAA must ensure/require refs/officials have and use the necessary skills and determination to preside over games fairly according to the rules (at all times, even extra time). GAA must also make disciplinary procedures a matter of implementing rules (clearly, fairly and openly) and NOT a matter of emotion driven by media.
The players at the highest level are now (in the main) so much more 'professional' and calculating than match officials.
Something must be done to ensure GAA officials have as much or more authority that officials have in rugby and AFL if destructive cynicism is to be minimized (it can never be totally eradicated in any field game).
GAA must ensure match officials have the necessary authority and exercise that authority firmly, without fear, to control every match with maximum fairness.
If cynicism and sneaky, cute hoordom is essential and fundamental to every major win the game will deteriorate and be worthless in a decade or two betraying everything good GAA now says it stands for.
Let's promote a game where you win by skill, strong hard tough physical effort and fairness (ie.sportsmanship) respecting the rules and all the players. Let's have games where cynicism and thuggery are minimized as far as is possible and are punished in the game and afterwards by fair disciplinary process (not driven by any domineering self serving media).
cjx (Tyrone) - Posts: 270 - 26/09/2017 23:52:45
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Replying To Tirchonaill1: "I understand what the poster is saying, basically that Dublin's win at all costs approach and the cynical way they closed out the game is going to be the death of Gaelic football, I think you could accuse lots of teams of that though, if Mayo had played that way when they were 2 points up near the finish Sam could well be in Mayo tonight.
not saying I agree with it but that's the gist of it I think." i think all the top teams are prepared to adopt the 'win at all costs' mantra. It's eat or be eaten. How would you address this though? The sledging and cynicism are have always been there. but it seems modern teams are devising even more ingenious ways to get that decisive edge. Who would ever have thought of the 'synchronised wrestling' that was a feature of Dublin's play during the last 5 minutes or the throwing of a GPS device at a kicker or the kicking away of a tee? I reckon if mayo had been a point up in the dying seconds, they would not have hesitated to use whatever it took to get them over the line and who would have blamed them? Honestly would all the critics and journos have highlighted these if Mayo had won??
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 27/09/2017 00:11:41
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "Ewan McKenna writes for a paper no one reads so he stirs sxit on Twitter ----." you mean the new york times which he has wrote pieces for?
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 27/09/2017 02:26:53
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Replying To Joxer: "Spot on. Kimmage wants Gavin to show more emotion full stop. He wants him to be weeping at Mayo's loss, cracking jokes with the sports hacks and to partner with Cluxton as the Dublin 'chuckle brothers' when they lay waste to the opposition. He craves subject matter, something to contort to make a story, anything at all. In the absence of 'material' he picks on the character of the individuals. Poor, poor form but it has his Twitter machine buzzing and he knows that there's no such thing as bad publicity whether it's pursuing Sky and Froome or lambasting David Walsh for supporting same. Rough Ride is a decent book though even if it's author seems to be desperately craving the public's attention these days." agreed..media may not like jim but jim is probably dead right to behave the way he does with the media..and hes not obligated to be entertaining either
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 27/09/2017 02:28:04
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Replying To hill16no1man: "I don't think Parkinson is to be taken seriously as I'm not sure he's all there.
heard a story of him in 2003 after laois won Leinster going to a nightclub in kildare that night to celebrate which involved him getting thrown out for causing a row.now I don't think you would need to be a rocket scientist to see it would end up that way, seems an odd thing to do after winning a trophy that has alluded laois for a long time to go to the team you beat county to celebrate so if 100% true he can hardly be the poster boy for how to celebrate." dont think theres a need for a personal attack like that..hes a perfectly reasonable journalist/pundit and generally fair for the most part
alano12 (Dublin) - Posts: 2208 - 27/09/2017 02:29:17
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Replying To Laois76: "In this particular discourse i think Kimmage has become over emotional.
However to ask was he ever involved in serious sport is ridiculous, completing the Tour de France in 1986 is a lot tougher on the body than gaa matches! And when people disparage Kimmage they should realise that internationally he is renowned for his role in bringing to light doping in cycling. Many cyclists died from their heart attacks due to their blood being like treacle from EPO and the heart being unable to pump it around the body. Bringing attention to such matters is not whinging.
And unpalatable as it may be for GAA people and Dublin GAA people especially Jim Gavin is only known in Ireland and among emmigrants. This is not to say Kimmage is wrong in calling Gavin classless but those having a go at Kimmage as a whinger and a nobody are far off the mark.
To conclude i feel classless and his depiction of Gavin and Cluxton is wrong but i have a lot of respect for Kimmage. He has guts and that can't be denied." To the best of my knowledge Kimmage has no experience in management or captaincy in big time sport where the media spotlight is shone firmly in your face, every word you utter is seized upon and twisted if possible before being reported to the nation as fact, where your character is exposed to the public and two bit journalists can rudicule you. Kimmage was a nobody in a third rate cycling team subject to none of the above. He bailed out when the going got tough. Until he steps up to the plate, manages a high profile team and hauls an Aladdin's cave of silverware, his comments can be didmissed as ill informed and serving one purpose only, attention seeking.
Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 27/09/2017 09:01:04
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Replying To cjx: "Amuses me to see that the only posters to comment that they don't understand my last post (which was about the long term destructiveness of cynicism and the lack of sportsmanship) were 3 Dubs!
Kimmage is just part of the media babble (and it matters nothing at all if Gavin and Cluxton have no public personality) . I don't care if some journo is annoyed that two amateur sportsmen don't perform the usual circus act that the media demand these days in front of a microphone .
My belief is that the sneaky 'win at all/any costs' cynicism (and those who condone and/or encourage it) which now exists at the highest level will destroy Gaelic Football in the longer term.
That is much more important in my opinion than the public persona of GAA stars (most of whom have great personalities when asked their opinions)!
To combat total cynicism the administration of GAA must ensure/require refs/officials have and use the necessary skills and determination to preside over games fairly according to the rules (at all times, even extra time). GAA must also make disciplinary procedures a matter of implementing rules (clearly, fairly and openly) and NOT a matter of emotion driven by media.
The players at the highest level are now (in the main) so much more 'professional' and calculating than match officials.
Something must be done to ensure GAA officials have as much or more authority that officials have in rugby and AFL if destructive cynicism is to be minimized (it can never be totally eradicated in any field game).
GAA must ensure match officials have the necessary authority and exercise that authority firmly, without fear, to control every match with maximum fairness.
If cynicism and sneaky, cute hoordom is essential and fundamental to every major win the game will deteriorate and be worthless in a decade or two betraying everything good GAA now says it stands for.
Let's promote a game where you win by skill, strong hard tough physical effort and fairness (ie.sportsmanship) respecting the rules and all the players. Let's have games where cynicism and thuggery are minimized as far as is possible and are punished in the game and afterwards by fair disciplinary process (not driven by any domineering self serving media)." Perhaps if your post was not riddled with contradictions I wouldn't have found it difficult to comprehend. Initially you tell us that gavin's media persona 'is not the issue'. Later you say : " Gavin in his behaviour in public and the cynical win at any cost actions of his team at the end in particular of the final this year stand, in real terms, for nothingness and emptiness (nihilism) and long term vicious slow death for GAA as an organization". . Now that is a blatant contradiction right there and it has nothing whatsoever to do with me being a Dub; rather, it has more to do with your failure to be clear and consistent. I think you are being very hard on Jim Gavin. According to you then, Davy Fitz's pitch invasion - which was less a display of ungovernable passion than you might think - and Brian Cody's attempts to bully McGrath are more in keeping with the authentic values of the GAA than Jim Gavin's handling of the media. I would remind you that Kimmage's issue is with Jim's apparent lack of emotion and his inability to empathise with Mayo's plight. Media image is a construction and just because Gavin refuses to engage with the media on their terms certain media people have seen that as a flaw in his character. Paul Kimmage ought to be ashamed of himself for branding Gavin as 'classless'. I used to admire him; now I have nothing but contempt for his self-righteous b&llsh*t.
avonali (Dublin) - Posts: 1974 - 27/09/2017 09:30:47
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Replying To cjx: "Amuses me to see that the only posters to comment that they don't understand my last post (which was about the long term destructiveness of cynicism and the lack of sportsmanship) were 3 Dubs!
Kimmage is just part of the media babble (and it matters nothing at all if Gavin and Cluxton have no public personality) . I don't care if some journo is annoyed that two amateur sportsmen don't perform the usual circus act that the media demand these days in front of a microphone .
My belief is that the sneaky 'win at all/any costs' cynicism (and those who condone and/or encourage it) which now exists at the highest level will destroy Gaelic Football in the longer term.
That is much more important in my opinion than the public persona of GAA stars (most of whom have great personalities when asked their opinions)!
To combat total cynicism the administration of GAA must ensure/require refs/officials have and use the necessary skills and determination to preside over games fairly according to the rules (at all times, even extra time). GAA must also make disciplinary procedures a matter of implementing rules (clearly, fairly and openly) and NOT a matter of emotion driven by media.
The players at the highest level are now (in the main) so much more 'professional' and calculating than match officials.
Something must be done to ensure GAA officials have as much or more authority that officials have in rugby and AFL if destructive cynicism is to be minimized (it can never be totally eradicated in any field game).
GAA must ensure match officials have the necessary authority and exercise that authority firmly, without fear, to control every match with maximum fairness.
If cynicism and sneaky, cute hoordom is essential and fundamental to every major win the game will deteriorate and be worthless in a decade or two betraying everything good GAA now says it stands for.
Let's promote a game where you win by skill, strong hard tough physical effort and fairness (ie.sportsmanship) respecting the rules and all the players. Let's have games where cynicism and thuggery are minimized as far as is possible and are punished in the game and afterwards by fair disciplinary process (not driven by any domineering self serving media)." That's a noble idea but how do you suggest they achieve that aim? Consistency of refereeing is a problem. I think the only reason there's a black card is because referees weren't consistently refereeing the yellow and red card rule consostently. One ref's red was another's yellow. One red's name in the book was just advantage to the opposition and no action taken on the offender even if no advantage accrued.
I think we need more hardline refereeing, even if it means a red card in the first five minutes. Plus penalizing an accumulation of team fouls, a set number for the first half with weighting for level of offence and still red and yellow cards. Could give 21 yard frees, penalties, even sending a player off if the team reaches a quota of infringements. Losing a player is detrimental for a team but giving away scores from fouling might be the ultimate deterrent. That's if they don't mind taking ideas from basketball.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 27/09/2017 09:35:07
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Replying To Malonemagic: "Stupid post. They are not journalists. Wooly and kimmage are" and Dunphy is...............?????
Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 27/09/2017 09:38:43
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "and Dunphy is...............?????" Journalist and author. He loves to create a bit of controversy to make a few quid but he'd lose and find Kimmage or Parkinson, not to mention Brolly!
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7345 - 27/09/2017 09:47:36
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Replying To hill16no1man: "I don't think Parkinson is to be taken seriously as I'm not sure he's all there.
heard a story of him in 2003 after laois won Leinster going to a nightclub in kildare that night to celebrate which involved him getting thrown out for causing a row.now I don't think you would need to be a rocket scientist to see it would end up that way, seems an odd thing to do after winning a trophy that has alluded laois for a long time to go to the team you beat county to celebrate so if 100% true he can hardly be the poster boy for how to celebrate." You "heard" a story about something that happened 14 years ago? Seriously?
FootblockREF (Monaghan) - Posts: 563 - 27/09/2017 10:10:04
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Journalist and author. He loves to create a bit of controversy to make a few quid but he'd lose and find Kimmage or Parkinson, not to mention Brolly!" I dont follow???
Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 27/09/2017 10:35:17
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Replying To cjx: "Amuses me to see that the only posters to comment that they don't understand my last post (which was about the long term destructiveness of cynicism and the lack of sportsmanship) were 3 Dubs!
Kimmage is just part of the media babble (and it matters nothing at all if Gavin and Cluxton have no public personality) . I don't care if some journo is annoyed that two amateur sportsmen don't perform the usual circus act that the media demand these days in front of a microphone .
My belief is that the sneaky 'win at all/any costs' cynicism (and those who condone and/or encourage it) which now exists at the highest level will destroy Gaelic Football in the longer term.
That is much more important in my opinion than the public persona of GAA stars (most of whom have great personalities when asked their opinions)!
To combat total cynicism the administration of GAA must ensure/require refs/officials have and use the necessary skills and determination to preside over games fairly according to the rules (at all times, even extra time). GAA must also make disciplinary procedures a matter of implementing rules (clearly, fairly and openly) and NOT a matter of emotion driven by media.
The players at the highest level are now (in the main) so much more 'professional' and calculating than match officials.
Something must be done to ensure GAA officials have as much or more authority that officials have in rugby and AFL if destructive cynicism is to be minimized (it can never be totally eradicated in any field game).
GAA must ensure match officials have the necessary authority and exercise that authority firmly, without fear, to control every match with maximum fairness.
If cynicism and sneaky, cute hoordom is essential and fundamental to every major win the game will deteriorate and be worthless in a decade or two betraying everything good GAA now says it stands for.
Let's promote a game where you win by skill, strong hard tough physical effort and fairness (ie.sportsmanship) respecting the rules and all the players. Let's have games where cynicism and thuggery are minimized as far as is possible and are punished in the game and afterwards by fair disciplinary process (not driven by any domineering self serving media)." Ok that makes a lot more sense ,
while I admire your view I think is a bit naïve utopian and off the mark , and will lay out my reasons why
Fans don't care as long as they win
Coaches don't care as long as they win
Sponsors don't care as long as the win
HQ doesn't care as long as crowds flock and TV numbers are healthy
Next is the game on the road to ruin in the way you have described while I definitely believe there is an edge to so called get over the line is it as bad as you say , not in my opinion, I watched practically every game on TV this year in both codes on Sky and RTE , I attend club games juvenile to Senior and all in-between its my experience the game is still essentially played hard and fair and when not done so ref,s deal with whatever occurs.
I also feel you are right about one thing slowly but surely in county games I've seen lads fake injury or rather over do the pain , that I don't like , lads rushing to get in the refs ear pushing for a card I don't like .
Finally maybe it was only three Dubs that took the time to read your whole post
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 27/09/2017 10:54:28
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Replying To hill16no1man: "I don't think Parkinson is to be taken seriously as I'm not sure he's all there.
heard a story of him in 2003 after laois won Leinster going to a nightclub in kildare that night to celebrate which involved him getting thrown out for causing a row.now I don't think you would need to be a rocket scientist to see it would end up that way, seems an odd thing to do after winning a trophy that has alluded laois for a long time to go to the team you beat county to celebrate so if 100% true he can hardly be the poster boy for how to celebrate." Stop the presses, player causes row after probably taking too much drink celebrating an historic Leinster title win for his county
Discount everything he ever says from now on
For what it's worth, I quite enjoy listening to the GAA Hour and Parkinson is a decent journalist in my opinion but once talk of Gavin comes up I just switch off because for all he loves to have a sly dig about the boring Jim Gavin, he doesn't exactly have anything interesting to say on the matter himself
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 27/09/2017 10:54:48
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Replying To Laois76: "In this particular discourse i think Kimmage has become over emotional.
However to ask was he ever involved in serious sport is ridiculous, completing the Tour de France in 1986 is a lot tougher on the body than gaa matches! And when people disparage Kimmage they should realise that internationally he is renowned for his role in bringing to light doping in cycling. Many cyclists died from their heart attacks due to their blood being like treacle from EPO and the heart being unable to pump it around the body. Bringing attention to such matters is not whinging.
And unpalatable as it may be for GAA people and Dublin GAA people especially Jim Gavin is only known in Ireland and among emmigrants. This is not to say Kimmage is wrong in calling Gavin classless but those having a go at Kimmage as a whinger and a nobody are far off the mark.
To conclude i feel classless and his depiction of Gavin and Cluxton is wrong but i have a lot of respect for Kimmage. He has guts and that can't be denied." i honestly didnt know if he played sport full stop thats why i said that, i wasnt trying to be smart like your suggesting, i just have only ever seen articles in the independant of him whinging about rugby,soccer,cycling and now gaa, but he must not understand a winning mentality if he tries to lace into gavin because he said he had experienced being out on the pitch after a loss in the national league final, he whinges he doesnt show emotion yet tries to put him down in the same breath for suggesting the league final loss effected him?
somebody needs to tell kimmage to make up his mind
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 27/09/2017 17:19:54
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Replying To alano12: "dont think theres a need for a personal attack like that..hes a perfectly reasonable journalist/pundit and generally fair for the most part" dont see where i personally attacked him
i just pointed out something i heard from a player who played club football with him
if hes going to lace into gavin about celebrating he has to expect his own actions to be scrutinized
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 27/09/2017 17:22:59
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Replying To FootblockREF: "You "heard" a story about something that happened 14 years ago? Seriously?" well thats generally how you aquire information
the problem is you have jumped the gun and assumed i heard it only this week which is incorrect
thats why your in a pickle here my friend
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 27/09/2017 17:28:39
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Replying To JoeSoap: "Stop the presses, player causes row after probably taking too much drink celebrating an historic Leinster title win for his county
Discount everything he ever says from now on
For what it's worth, I quite enjoy listening to the GAA Hour and Parkinson is a decent journalist in my opinion but once talk of Gavin comes up I just switch off because for all he loves to have a sly dig about the boring Jim Gavin, he doesn't exactly have anything interesting to say on the matter himself" strange response their mate
mr parkinson is laying into gavin about celebrating or what he feels is a lack of,
what i pointed out is mr parkinson is hardly the poster boy for how to celebrate a win by going to the county you just beat that day;s nightclub scene.
i think any sensible person would see thats a recipe for disaster and strange as you would imagine you would want to celebrate that historic success with his own people, not go to the opposition county.
hill16no1man (Dublin) - Posts: 12665 - 27/09/2017 17:33:26
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