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CCCC hurling proposals change tier 2 teams status

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Replying To legendzxix:  "
Replying To carlovia:  "[quote=JXV:  "This chart might be helpful if you want to visualise how the format could've panned out

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Very useful chart, thank you.

Great to see that Carlow will be taking on Kilkenny in next years QF.

Bet they are shaking !!"
A more realistic example instead of alphabetical order would use Laois and Westmeath as an example of the top 2 from tier 1.5."]I fancy Carlow to be in the top 2 next year but realistically theres nothing
between Kerry, Carlow, Westmeath and Antrim on a given day and venue.

Laois are probably a bit ahead of the others but its marginal.

Makes for a good tournament.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 03/10/2017 16:48:05    2052759

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A lost of the discussion on here has been about who the big losers are with the new structure. I was just thinking about who the big winners are and of course it is the big boys. Take Kilkenny for example and the path to a quarter final this year vs 2018:

2017
So we all know Kilkenny lost to Wexford in Leinster. The qualifiers draw wasn't kind to them so they would have had to have beaten Limerick and Waterford to get to the Quarter Finals.

2018
So say Kilkenny lose to Wexford again in 2018 and they lose to Galway too. To get to a quarter final they will have to beat Dublin, Offaly and a tier 2 team in the preliminary quarter final.

The changes to the hurling championship since the 1997 season have made it harder and harder for some of the top 10 teams to repeat the golden era of hurling from 1994 - 1997.

Under the old system the 2004 semi finalists would have been Waterford, Wexford, Galway and Ulster Champions. Instead we had a Cork vs Kilkenny final as both regrouped through the qualifiers.

The depressing thing now is we might not see another 2013 or 2017 season now because Kilkenny, Tipp and Cork can afford two provincial losses and still make it to the last 6 (quarter final).

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 03/10/2017 18:06:05    2052775

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One of the big winners from all this could be Antrim and Ulster hurling in general. If they win the tier 2 competition they would be guaranteed 2 championship games the following year in Antrim, hopefully the new Casement but probably in north Antrim first. Kilkenny and Wexford going up for championship games would be a great occasion and a real boost for hurling in the province.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 03/10/2017 18:08:44    2052777

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Replying To jpcampion:  "Realistically Laois have not played in a leinster final since the mid eighties and not won one since 1949. A year out wont kill us and if we win the group which should be a reasonable and achieveable ambition then a prelim QF against a 3rd placed county would be a good marker of where we stand in relation to the "Top 10?"
The problem will be where are these matches to be played in the calendar. It will have to be 5 consecutive weekends in May/June with possible QF match in late June. Logistically a nightmare for fixtures never mind what the Footballers are up to."
They should not play on 5 consecutive weekends. It will most likely be back-to-back weekends for rounds 1 & 2, a weekend off, back-to-back weekends for rounds 3 & 4, a weekend off and the round 5.

They might have to consider playing the tier 2 final after the preliminary quarter-finals. It's one part that might have to be teased out more. If the tier 2 final is played on the weekend after round 5, the finalists will need a free weekend before the preliminary quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 03/10/2017 18:16:38    2052779

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "A lost of the discussion on here has been about who the big losers are with the new structure. I was just thinking about who the big winners are and of course it is the big boys. Take Kilkenny for example and the path to a quarter final this year vs 2018:

2017
So we all know Kilkenny lost to Wexford in Leinster. The qualifiers draw wasn't kind to them so they would have had to have beaten Limerick and Waterford to get to the Quarter Finals.

2018
So say Kilkenny lose to Wexford again in 2018 and they lose to Galway too. To get to a quarter final they will have to beat Dublin, Offaly and a tier 2 team in the preliminary quarter final.

The changes to the hurling championship since the 1997 season have made it harder and harder for some of the top 10 teams to repeat the golden era of hurling from 1994 - 1997.

Under the old system the 2004 semi finalists would have been Waterford, Wexford, Galway and Ulster Champions. Instead we had a Cork vs Kilkenny final as both regrouped through the qualifiers.

The depressing thing now is we might not see another 2013 or 2017 season now because Kilkenny, Tipp and Cork can afford two provincial losses and still make it to the last 6 (quarter final)."
The new system is very good for the Leinster counties in general. Definitely the weaker of the 2 groups.

I agree this is better for the stronger counties but it can also be better for everyone.

There are a few problems with the system caused by having rigid Provincial groups but in general most counties and the game as a whole should benefit from this system.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 03/10/2017 19:17:18    2052796

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "A lost of the discussion on here has been about who the big losers are with the new structure. I was just thinking about who the big winners are and of course it is the big boys. Take Kilkenny for example and the path to a quarter final this year vs 2018:

2017
So we all know Kilkenny lost to Wexford in Leinster. The qualifiers draw wasn't kind to them so they would have had to have beaten Limerick and Waterford to get to the Quarter Finals.

2018
So say Kilkenny lose to Wexford again in 2018 and they lose to Galway too. To get to a quarter final they will have to beat Dublin, Offaly and a tier 2 team in the preliminary quarter final.

The changes to the hurling championship since the 1997 season have made it harder and harder for some of the top 10 teams to repeat the golden era of hurling from 1994 - 1997.

Under the old system the 2004 semi finalists would have been Waterford, Wexford, Galway and Ulster Champions. Instead we had a Cork vs Kilkenny final as both regrouped through the qualifiers.

The depressing thing now is we might not see another 2013 or 2017 season now because Kilkenny, Tipp and Cork can afford two provincial losses and still make it to the last 6 (quarter final)."
Yeah, that's probably my main gripe with the new system. Under what we had up to now, if say Kilkenny and Tipp got knocked out in the first rounds of their provincial comps, they could meet earlier in the year, in a qualifier, and one of the big teams would be out at that stage (like Waterford v Kilkenny this year, or Tipp v Kilkenny in 2013). Going out of the province at an early stage meant you could meat a big team in the qualifiers, harder to get to a quarter-final. That's gone now, and the chances of the bigger top 3 teams being knocked out before the quarter-final stage has also gone with it. After the championship we just had, seems like another backwards step. I decried the qualifier system at times, but I began to see its merit in the past year or so.

Ah well, I hope this new system is a success, despite my misgivings. I see alot of potential pitfalls though, we could have had better.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 03/10/2017 19:35:19    2052800

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It's right to include the 3rd placed teams. If Cork and Kilkenny are consistently good enough for the top 3, so be it. The carrot of getting to a provincial final and winning it for the direct route to the quarter-finals is still there.

If tier 2 counties are guaranteed home advantage in the preliminary quarter-finals, it's an opportunity for them to have a high profile game.

I hope to see Kerry hosting a Kilkenny or Cork in a preliminary quarter-final. While it'll be a tough day at the office, there has to be a competitive bout against one of these opponents at some stage.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 03/10/2017 20:08:59    2052818

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It's right to include the 3rd placed teams. If Cork and Kilkenny are consistently good enough for the top 3, so be it. The carrot of getting to a provincial final and winning it for the direct route to the quarter-finals is still there.

If tier 2 counties are guaranteed home advantage in the preliminary quarter-finals, it's an opportunity for them to have a high profile game.

I hope to see Kerry hosting a Kilkenny or Cork in a preliminary quarter-final. While it'll be a tough day at the office, there has to be a competitive bout against one of these opponents at some stage."
Kerry: Quarter finals are normally played in Thurles, although I would agree a home draw for Tier 2 team would help. As for the stronger teams now having more chances of reaching the latter stages, don't we all want to see more great hurling matches. Can't have it both ways.

Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 03/10/2017 20:57:12    2052835

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The one thing we've lost (it only lasted one year anyway), is the Christy Ring champions entering the qualifiers. But again, I'm not sure that could have been accomodated in any format other than this years one, and I don't want to keep nay-saying. Its just worth pointing out, at the start of this year, 23 teams had the chance of getting to play in the AI series, incl the Ring teams. Thats back to 16 next year.

After this change is implemented, we'll now have 5 tiers in the hurling championship. Do we need that many, is that too granular? When the tiered system was brought in, I had hoped that over the years the gap between tiers would decrease. But it seems we're going in the opposite direction.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 03/10/2017 21:46:14    2052859

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "The one thing we've lost (it only lasted one year anyway), is the Christy Ring champions entering the qualifiers. But again, I'm not sure that could have been accomodated in any format other than this years one, and I don't want to keep nay-saying. Its just worth pointing out, at the start of this year, 23 teams had the chance of getting to play in the AI series, incl the Ring teams. Thats back to 16 next year.

After this change is implemented, we'll now have 5 tiers in the hurling championship. Do we need that many, is that too granular? When the tiered system was brought in, I had hoped that over the years the gap between tiers would decrease. But it seems we're going in the opposite direction."
It has been an organic growth. Hurling started with the Ring and Rackard being added. After a few years, there was deemed to be a need for a 4th tier.

There's been a small group of teams between McCarthy and Ring level for a few years. The qualifier group has become an appropriate level for this small group of teams.

In fairness, the qualifier group was to consist of 3 teams when it started. It was agreed to expand it to 4. This tier will consist of 5 after next year. The number of teams at each level can always be reviewed.

I think one of the provincial groups should have 6 teams. The team finishing 6th should be replaced by the 2nd tier winner. Munster would only consist of 6 teams if Kerry win the second tier. The 2nd tier could remain at 6 teams as well. These are some minor tweaks that can be made in the years to come.

I can imagine Antrim upon relegation asking for tier 2 to include a 6th team. I can also imagine Offaly upon relegation asking for Leinster to include a 6th team. Kerry upon ever winning tier 2 might make a similar request in Munster.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 04/10/2017 13:57:57    2053005

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The biggest plus for me is two home games for Limerick and possibly a home Final if home and away stays in place as it has done in Munster. You 'll see real good crowds and I'd like to see Saturday night games aswell. There has to be room for night games now.
Someone still has to give me a satisfactory answer regarding Cusack Park and Walsh Park. How does a 14000 sized stadium accommodate a potential 35000. And it's totally unfair to dismiss this concern by saying tough to the bandwagoners.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 04/10/2017 14:25:44    2053017

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The biggest plus for me is two home games for Limerick and possibly a home Final if home and away stays in place as it has done in Munster. You 'll see real good crowds and I'd like to see Saturday night games aswell. There has to be room for night games now.
Someone still has to give me a satisfactory answer regarding Cusack Park and Walsh Park. How does a 14000 sized stadium accommodate a potential 35000. And it's totally unfair to dismiss this concern by saying tough to the bandwagoners.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 04/10/2017 14:28:04    2053022

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Replying To legendzxix:  "It has been an organic growth. Hurling started with the Ring and Rackard being added. After a few years, there was deemed to be a need for a 4th tier.

There's been a small group of teams between McCarthy and Ring level for a few years. The qualifier group has become an appropriate level for this small group of teams.

In fairness, the qualifier group was to consist of 3 teams when it started. It was agreed to expand it to 4. This tier will consist of 5 after next year. The number of teams at each level can always be reviewed.

I think one of the provincial groups should have 6 teams. The team finishing 6th should be replaced by the 2nd tier winner. Munster would only consist of 6 teams if Kerry win the second tier. The 2nd tier could remain at 6 teams as well. These are some minor tweaks that can be made in the years to come.

I can imagine Antrim upon relegation asking for tier 2 to include a 6th team. I can also imagine Offaly upon relegation asking for Leinster to include a 6th team. Kerry upon ever winning tier 2 might make a similar request in Munster."
We don't plan to be relegated from the McCarthy Cup in 2018.

thelongridge (Offaly) - Posts: 1735 - 04/10/2017 16:05:18    2053055

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Replying To bloodyban:  "The biggest plus for me is two home games for Limerick and possibly a home Final if home and away stays in place as it has done in Munster. You 'll see real good crowds and I'd like to see Saturday night games aswell. There has to be room for night games now.
Someone still has to give me a satisfactory answer regarding Cusack Park and Walsh Park. How does a 14000 sized stadium accommodate a potential 35000. And it's totally unfair to dismiss this concern by saying tough to the bandwagoners."
Demand will be much greater than supply and you just won't be able to get into these games. Dublin, Clare and Waterford will all have games where there won't be near enough tickets to accommodate everyone, maybe even Galway as well. Packed grounds in June will be great to see, though I expect it will also lead to some flashpoints on the field.
Good to see the Laois manager come out in favour of the new format, he made some very sensible points on it all.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 04/10/2017 16:33:49    2053069

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Replying To Soma:  "Demand will be much greater than supply and you just won't be able to get into these games. Dublin, Clare and Waterford will all have games where there won't be near enough tickets to accommodate everyone, maybe even Galway as well. Packed grounds in June will be great to see, though I expect it will also lead to some flashpoints on the field.
Good to see the Laois manager come out in favour of the new format, he made some very sensible points on it all."
In the interest of fairness, the tier 2 counties had to be given some sweetener. The preliminary quarter-final is perfect. The progressive counties at that level want and need that one big game. It's massive for the players involved despite the enormous difficult task that it will be.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 04/10/2017 21:28:04    2053146

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Replying To thelongridge:  "We don't plan to be relegated from the McCarthy Cup in 2018."
You must be very confident so that Kerry will win the qualifier group, because that is the only thing that can save Offaly.

Onion Breath (Carlow) - Posts: 1412 - 04/10/2017 22:12:38    2053158

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Replying To Soma:  "Demand will be much greater than supply and you just won't be able to get into these games. Dublin, Clare and Waterford will all have games where there won't be near enough tickets to accommodate everyone, maybe even Galway as well. Packed grounds in June will be great to see, though I expect it will also lead to some flashpoints on the field.
Good to see the Laois manager come out in favour of the new format, he made some very sensible points on it all."
The inclusion of the two Tier 2 teams in the McCarthy cup makes all the difference.

Under the initial proposals we were being cast aside but now i think all 6
teams will look forward to it.

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 05/10/2017 09:48:30    2053205

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Replying To carlovia:  "The inclusion of the two Tier 2 teams in the McCarthy cup makes all the difference.

Under the initial proposals we were being cast aside but now i think all 6
teams will look forward to it."
Exactly. I think it's the first time these group of counties have got a meaningful concession. It's a sign of progress of sorts.

Offaly were part of the group lobbying for the preliminary quarter-final. An indication that they are prepared to accept relegation and they want a meaningful carrot for that group.

In someways it's wrong to call it tier 2. It offers an opportunity to challenge for the All-Ireland in the same year. Tier 1B or calling it the B Championship is more accurate, with the provincial championships being A level and the Ring Cup remaining tier 2.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7823 - 05/10/2017 10:58:02    2053228

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Want to see a team with one win and three losses making the AI SHC QFs ? Could happen especially in Lein.
Here's how - if the Lein Final is between a team with 100% record and one with one loss - that means three victories will be shared among the remaining three teams. If they split evenly - that's it - one of the 'one and three' teams places 3rd and the AI QFs. This 3rd team could take Liam home with '4 and 3' - not ideal.

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 08/10/2017 02:36:06    2053811

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Replying To omahant:  "Want to see a team with one win and three losses making the AI SHC QFs ? Could happen especially in Lein.
Here's how - if the Lein Final is between a team with 100% record and one with one loss - that means three victories will be shared among the remaining three teams. If they split evenly - that's it - one of the 'one and three' teams places 3rd and the AI QFs. This 3rd team could take Liam home with '4 and 3' - not ideal."
They'd need to win a minimum of 5 matches or 4 matches with 2 draws in the group stage. They'd start in the preliminary QF, not the QF and have 4 rounds from there that they need to get through.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 08/10/2017 11:28:11    2053837

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