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CCCC hurling proposals change tier 2 teams status

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Replying To preddan:  "Criminal setup now..this is totally wrong and unfair on the counties trying their best to promote and make a breakthrough of which they are not that far off naming Westmeath, Kerry, laois,antrim ,Carlow and meath. Just when Hurling looked finally as if it was going to take off into a new golden age ie the 90's along comes this stupid proposal, youd nearly wonder is it trying to kill off the game completely and make it completely elitist...if any county wants to take part in the championship they should be allowed do so...simple as that, why do players train all year and line out for their county to do this, these players in these so called group try just as hard and train just as hard as the main ones now, its not like 20 years ago anymore, they are striving to improve and compete at the highest level. I fear now for these counties will they even get their strongest teams out now for next year if the players don't see any just reward in playing in a few games with paltry attendances, they deserve a cut off the big teams every year. Micheal Duignan can be happy all he wants considering offaly are in the elitist group, but honestly are they any better than Westmeath, Kerry, laois, Carlow etc...don't think so. Hurling is not being run properly,,,,the league is all wrong too,,,,,take for example Westmeath...I wonder if they had been playing in an old style division 2 of 8 teams this year would it have helped them in their development further, if they had they could have taken a noteworthy scalp or two in the championship earlier this year, but their useless paltry 4 league games let them down. I hope the counties in the preliminary group kick up further over this for their own sakes and the game in general."
I'm sorry Preddan but that is absolute nonsense. This is a good structure that is merit based and that is all anyone can ask for of a structure. There is promotion and relegation between the tiers and the top two teams in tier 2 get access to the McCarthy Cup cup in the same season. I don't fully agree with that aspect but it's there and I can live with it. The tier 2 competition will be very competitive imo and is worth winning in its own right. There are scheduling issues that will probably need to be ironed out but overall it's a fair system.
If Kildare are good enough they can progress to the Leinster championship. They have to win their way there though and that's the way it should be. Sport is about performance and achievement not charity.

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 02/10/2017 14:17:20    2052409

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It's an interesting situation now. I'm not against change and the more games the better.
However have certain scenarios been thought out and planned for. If Clare have Limerick at home next year with a place in the Munster final at stake how can they accommodate the crowd. It's a 14000 capacity stadium. It's not inconceivable that limerick could bring 15000 to a game in Ennis on a sunny day.Likewise Waterford v Tipp in Waterford. This hasn't been thought out at all.

bloodyban (Limerick) - Posts: 1710 - 02/10/2017 15:09:37    2052437

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I think we need to get away from the attitude that every game needs to be close in the GAA. Hammerings happen even between supposedly evenly matched teams.

Carlow took Antrim to the cleaners in a Christy Ring final. The only way the depth of quality will improve is if teams aren't Ring fenced off from playing each other."
Do you think it will be easier or more difficult to persuade u21 hurlers in Derry to commit to the team next year? They had a good year this year winning Ulster but then took a 42 point hammering from Kilkenny. I don't believe Derrys players learned anything from that game, or that Laois learned much in their 16 point defeat by a poorly performing Dublin team at senior level.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 02/10/2017 15:33:51    2052446

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Replying To preddan:  "Criminal setup now..this is totally wrong and unfair on the counties trying their best to promote and make a breakthrough of which they are not that far off naming Westmeath, Kerry, laois,antrim ,Carlow and meath. Just when Hurling looked finally as if it was going to take off into a new golden age ie the 90's along comes this stupid proposal, youd nearly wonder is it trying to kill off the game completely and make it completely elitist...if any county wants to take part in the championship they should be allowed do so...simple as that, why do players train all year and line out for their county to do this, these players in these so called group try just as hard and train just as hard as the main ones now, its not like 20 years ago anymore, they are striving to improve and compete at the highest level. I fear now for these counties will they even get their strongest teams out now for next year if the players don't see any just reward in playing in a few games with paltry attendances, they deserve a cut off the big teams every year. Micheal Duignan can be happy all he wants considering offaly are in the elitist group, but honestly are they any better than Westmeath, Kerry, laois, Carlow etc...don't think so. Hurling is not being run properly,,,,the league is all wrong too,,,,,take for example Westmeath...I wonder if they had been playing in an old style division 2 of 8 teams this year would it have helped them in their development further, if they had they could have taken a noteworthy scalp or two in the championship earlier this year, but their useless paltry 4 league games let them down. I hope the counties in the preliminary group kick up further over this for their own sakes and the game in general."
Again, I'm not a fan of the new system, but how are Carlow, Laois, Westmeath worse off under the new system? The only real difference is that instead of the top team in the group going on to a Leinster Quarter-final, the 2 top teams will now go on to a play off for the AI Quarter-finals, which is actually a more advanced stage in the championship. And they have 5 guaranteed games regardless. How was the older format better (in that specific case)?

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/10/2017 15:50:31    2052452

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Wait, I may have gotten something wrong. Do 2 teams from the tier 2 group go on to a AI QF play off, against the 3rd placed Munster and Leinster teams respectively? Or does one team from the tier 2 group get through, and that play off rotates between 3rd place Leinster and 3rd place Munster yearly? I've seen conflicting reports. The first option makes sense, the 2nd option would be a bit of a joke.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/10/2017 16:08:49    2052457

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Replying To bloodyban:  "It's an interesting situation now. I'm not against change and the more games the better.
However have certain scenarios been thought out and planned for. If Clare have Limerick at home next year with a place in the Munster final at stake how can they accommodate the crowd. It's a 14000 capacity stadium. It's not inconceivable that limerick could bring 15000 to a game in Ennis on a sunny day.Likewise Waterford v Tipp in Waterford. This hasn't been thought out at all."
That is a supply and demand issue. Clare will simply make the game all ticket and they will be the hottest ticket in the Midwest. Clare supporters will buy season tickets to ensure a ticket. Limerick supporters will buy season tickets to ensure tickets for that matter. This is all good. There is no Devine right to attend matches. Clare are working with the safety officer to increase capacity.

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 02/10/2017 16:28:01    2052465

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Replying To Soma:  "Do you think it will be easier or more difficult to persuade u21 hurlers in Derry to commit to the team next year? They had a good year this year winning Ulster but then took a 42 point hammering from Kilkenny. I don't believe Derrys players learned anything from that game, or that Laois learned much in their 16 point defeat by a poorly performing Dublin team at senior level."
I think that's different. The Ulster u21 championship is a joke. Derry hurlers playing Kilkenny at u21 is a hell of a lot different to a senior team like Carlow or Kerry playing in the top tier, where they've earned the right to be there because they're amongst the top 12 or 14 teams in the country.

The gap will not close without a more open spread of games in my opinion.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 02/10/2017 16:37:59    2052472

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Replying To Marlon_JD:  "Wait, I may have gotten something wrong. Do 2 teams from the tier 2 group go on to a AI QF play off, against the 3rd placed Munster and Leinster teams respectively? Or does one team from the tier 2 group get through, and that play off rotates between 3rd place Leinster and 3rd place Munster yearly? I've seen conflicting reports. The first option makes sense, the 2nd option would be a bit of a joke."
The two finalists of tier 2 play in preliminary quarter final. They get home advantage too. Only the winner is promoted to Leinster championship though.

Tadhgmacda (Limerick) - Posts: 99 - 02/10/2017 17:03:44    2052483

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Replying To Soma:  "Do you think it will be easier or more difficult to persuade u21 hurlers in Derry to commit to the team next year? They had a good year this year winning Ulster but then took a 42 point hammering from Kilkenny. I don't believe Derrys players learned anything from that game, or that Laois learned much in their 16 point defeat by a poorly performing Dublin team at senior level."
I actually don't mind the new system.

At least the tier 2 teams get a shot at the All Ireland still and they get 5 group matches that will be competitive.

I just think better could've been produced and that we shouldn't be too worried about teams getting beaten heavily. So what. I really don't think a hammering leads to the existential crisis in players that some would have you believe.

The Derry lads who played Kilkenny aren't mugs, they knew they'd get a hammering. I really don't think that loss will weigh on their decision much at all. Derry' senior situation is probably a more important factor. Work needs to be done to improve that.

As for Laois I don't see why they won't have learned from the Dublin defeat, unfortunately they've another year to wait to play at that level again. So not much opportunity to test any lessons out.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 02/10/2017 17:05:25    2052487

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Replying To Whammo86:  "I actually don't mind the new system.

At least the tier 2 teams get a shot at the All Ireland still and they get 5 group matches that will be competitive.

I just think better could've been produced and that we shouldn't be too worried about teams getting beaten heavily. So what. I really don't think a hammering leads to the existential crisis in players that some would have you believe.

The Derry lads who played Kilkenny aren't mugs, they knew they'd get a hammering. I really don't think that loss will weigh on their decision much at all. Derry' senior situation is probably a more important factor. Work needs to be done to improve that.

As for Laois I don't see why they won't have learned from the Dublin defeat, unfortunately they've another year to wait to play at that level again. So not much opportunity to test any lessons out."
In 2015 Laois suffered a 10 point defeat to Dublin and 19 point defeat to Galway, in 2016 a 35 point defeat to Clare. I'm not sure why they would learn more from this years defeat than any of the previous ones. They will play the All-Ireland champions in next year's league and get competitive championship games with a big reward for the winners - looks a decent arrangement for them.

Soma (UK) - Posts: 2630 - 02/10/2017 19:07:37    2052531

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Replying To Tadhgmacda:  "The two finalists of tier 2 play in preliminary quarter final. They get home advantage too. Only the winner is promoted to Leinster championship though."
Right, so the top 2 from the prelim/tier 2 group go onto a AI QF playoffs, that's what I thought, good. In an odd way, they'd actually have a less difficult route to an AI QF thant a Munster team. For example, Limerick would have to beat 2 of Tipp, Cork, Clare and Waterford to get to the same stage (same applies for Tipp, Clare etc).
But I'm glad its 2 teams out of tier 2. The language being used is very confusing. Some people/outlets are saying its a 10 Team AI series, but its not. Its a 16 team AI series.

Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 02/10/2017 20:06:36    2052547

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I agree with the hurling changes being implemented. The qualifier group counties had to be given some fairness. A motion put forward by some of them to be included in an All-Ireland quarter-final play-off was agreed upon. I agree with that decision.

I'm not entirely bothered that Kerry would have to playoff against the 5th placed Munster team. It can always be reviewed again if that scenario ever arises.

The qualifier group is more a tier 1.5 than a tier 2. Counties in this group can still complete for the All-Ireland. Offaly definitely needed that to be included. Offaly will most likely be in the qualifier group in 2019. The quarter-final play-off for the top 2 from the qualifier group will aid Offaly in not being cut adrift.

The 3rd placed provincial teams will comfortably negotiate the playoff more often than not. That doesn't take away from the merits of the playoff. Qualifier counties will relish the opportunity of testing themselves at least once in the year against a top opponent. Counties cannot be ringfenced indefinitely.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 02/10/2017 20:10:06    2052549

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The Preliminary Quarter-final, top 2 tier 2 teams against the 3rd placed Leinster and Munster teams is interesting... It would be a major breakthrough for any of the Tier 2 teams to go through to the quarters

JXV (Mayo) - Posts: 39 - 02/10/2017 23:45:19    2052590

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I enjoyed following Meath in this years Leinster round robin and will look forward to doing so in the group next year. Will be a great opportunity for all teams to pit themselves against similar opposition. We've beaten Kerry and Antrim in recent years and weren't that far off Westmeath.
I'd expect Laois and Westmeath to top it in 2018 and have a real go at the QF playoff. Westmeath showed last year with a bit of belief you can give these T1 teams a scare at least. Just hope they haven't lost their element of surprise.

RoyalBadger (Meath) - Posts: 571 - 03/10/2017 09:34:05    2052619

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Replying To Soma:  "In 2015 Laois suffered a 10 point defeat to Dublin and 19 point defeat to Galway, in 2016 a 35 point defeat to Clare. I'm not sure why they would learn more from this years defeat than any of the previous ones. They will play the All-Ireland champions in next year's league and get competitive championship games with a big reward for the winners - looks a decent arrangement for them."
I actually agree with a lot of that.

Laois are being provided with a good season next year. The new tier 2 should be a good competition. Those 6 teams are all around a competitive level.

What I'm getting at though is more about further down the tiers and also what happens over time when the relative strengths of teams changes and the tiers that were put in place before no longer work particularly well.

For instance last season Carlow played Antrim 4 times, really those were the only games where those 2 teams went into them without being big favourites.

I think having larger grades and 2 competitions a season with more overlap in the grades is better for getting teams a better mix of games.

There are some quirks in the new system which I don't like but overall it is better than what was there before and should improve the game.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 03/10/2017 10:22:01    2052628

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In hurling, it's just a matter now of seeing how it works in practice. I think it will prove to be a success and there will only be minor changes from time to time.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 03/10/2017 10:46:18    2052638

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This chart might be helpful if you want to visualise how the format could've panned out

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JXV (Mayo) - Posts: 39 - 03/10/2017 11:42:32    2052660

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Replying To JXV:  "This chart might be helpful if you want to visualise how the format could've panned out

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Very useful chart, thank you.

Great to see that Carlow will be taking on Kilkenny in next years QF.

Bet they are shaking !!

carlovia (None) - Posts: 1517 - 03/10/2017 12:08:06    2052668

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Replying To carlovia:  "
Replying To JXV:  "This chart might be helpful if you want to visualise how the format could've panned out

link"
Very useful chart, thank you.

Great to see that Carlow will be taking on Kilkenny in next years QF.

Bet they are shaking !!"
A more realistic example instead of alphabetical order would use Laois and Westmeath as an example of the top 2 from tier 1.5.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 03/10/2017 15:26:21    2052736

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Realistically Laois have not played in a leinster final since the mid eighties and not won one since 1949. A year out wont kill us and if we win the group which should be a reasonable and achieveable ambition then a prelim QF against a 3rd placed county would be a good marker of where we stand in relation to the "Top 10?"
The problem will be where are these matches to be played in the calendar. It will have to be 5 consecutive weekends in May/June with possible QF match in late June. Logistically a nightmare for fixtures never mind what the Footballers are up to.

jpcampion (Laois) - Posts: 194 - 03/10/2017 15:52:57    2052744

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