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Is it foolish to trust ''the system'' too much?

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I first thought on this after the Donegal/ Tyrone game in June when Donegal were flat and got hammered by tyrone
I know a lot of Donegal people and the one thing i learned was that from top to bottom of the club and county scene all teams were playing the same system of players back in numbers, defending, breaking and covering zones etc etc. I remember at the time (3-4 years ago) people were lauding this saying that all the players coming up will know the system to a tee and it'll be second nature to them come senior level.
But strangely its having a negative impact on players. they're only part of a pack now and no one feels the need to have an individual impact.
it happened with tyrone on sunday. they were very very confident in their ability and in the system they played to the point where no one took responsibility. Players were covering space and pointing here there and everywhere but no one put in a tackle.
Are young players footballing abilities been stunted by this over reliance on a plan and less of an emphasis on their individual skills ?

theweanling (Cavan) - 29/08/2017 12:32:23    2040012

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Replying To theweanling:  "I first thought on this after the Donegal/ Tyrone game in June when Donegal were flat and got hammered by tyrone
I know a lot of Donegal people and the one thing i learned was that from top to bottom of the club and county scene all teams were playing the same system of players back in numbers, defending, breaking and covering zones etc etc. I remember at the time (3-4 years ago) people were lauding this saying that all the players coming up will know the system to a tee and it'll be second nature to them come senior level.
But strangely its having a negative impact on players. they're only part of a pack now and no one feels the need to have an individual impact.
it happened with tyrone on sunday. they were very very confident in their ability and in the system they played to the point where no one took responsibility. Players were covering space and pointing here there and everywhere but no one put in a tackle.
Are young players footballing abilities been stunted by this over reliance on a plan and less of an emphasis on their individual skills ?"
You need both a system and to give players freedom to play.

It's a a balancing act.

You play too similarly all the time you'll be predictable, Dublin knew exactly what they had to prepare for on Sunday and matched it.

You also have to have more than one way of playing depending on how the game is going. You have to come out of your shell when you're behind. There are also ways of killing games off when you have a lead.

Players have to be coordinated though at this level, if you're making it up on the fly you're going to get found out, that's where the system comes into it.

In terms of coaching you have to spend time on tactics, but you have to also spend time on game intelligence and individual skills.

Dublin have phenomenal individual skills and are very organised. They play to a system but players have the freedom to try things within that.

The system is just about putting some structure to your play so that you're getting the most out of your players.

At minor level you should be coaching tactical awareness but it's more about tooling players up so that they can perform in a structured team. It shouldn't be about trying to optimise one style of play. You won't have flexible players able to cope with changes to the game.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - 29/08/2017 15:17:59    2040148

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The one thing that underlines the futility of systems, the best teams usually win

arock (Dublin) - 29/08/2017 18:04:38    2040289

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No team will ever win all ireland playing ''the system'' ever again!

Its only a cruch for bad teams and a bad manger who has no confidence in his players or himself !

The System doesn't improve the skill set of a player ! It has a negative impact on how to develop into a skillful player like Stephen O'Neill ,Osin McConville and Peter Canavan!

It's just a cruch system for low quality players and mangers!

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WhyTheLongFace (Meath) - 29/08/2017 18:52:43    2040312

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It makes me laugh when people say Dublin don't play to a system and it really discredits the great work of Jim Gavin and his backroom team. Granted the Dublin system is easy on the eye and they have brilliant players but there is a structure to their play, for example you don't often find a Dublin player running up a blind alley and get turned over. They also play with plenty of men back but critically they defend like men possessed. They have the proper balance between defence and attack.

What is dead in the water is a blanket defence that is zonal, relying on marking space rather that tackling with intensity. This relies on the opposition running into trouble and coughing up the ball but good teams don't do that.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - 29/08/2017 19:03:06    2040318

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Replying To theweanling:  "I first thought on this after the Donegal/ Tyrone game in June when Donegal were flat and got hammered by tyrone
I know a lot of Donegal people and the one thing i learned was that from top to bottom of the club and county scene all teams were playing the same system of players back in numbers, defending, breaking and covering zones etc etc. I remember at the time (3-4 years ago) people were lauding this saying that all the players coming up will know the system to a tee and it'll be second nature to them come senior level.
But strangely its having a negative impact on players. they're only part of a pack now and no one feels the need to have an individual impact.
it happened with tyrone on sunday. they were very very confident in their ability and in the system they played to the point where no one took responsibility. Players were covering space and pointing here there and everywhere but no one put in a tackle.
Are young players footballing abilities been stunted by this over reliance on a plan and less of an emphasis on their individual skills ?"
Very well said

hipster (Dublin) - 29/08/2017 20:21:11    2040356

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Replying To theweanling:  "I first thought on this after the Donegal/ Tyrone game in June when Donegal were flat and got hammered by tyrone
I know a lot of Donegal people and the one thing i learned was that from top to bottom of the club and county scene all teams were playing the same system of players back in numbers, defending, breaking and covering zones etc etc. I remember at the time (3-4 years ago) people were lauding this saying that all the players coming up will know the system to a tee and it'll be second nature to them come senior level.
But strangely its having a negative impact on players. they're only part of a pack now and no one feels the need to have an individual impact.
it happened with tyrone on sunday. they were very very confident in their ability and in the system they played to the point where no one took responsibility. Players were covering space and pointing here there and everywhere but no one put in a tackle.
Are young players footballing abilities been stunted by this over reliance on a plan and less of an emphasis on their individual skills ?"
The 'system' reminds me of communism. In theory very good but a kind of brainwashing that inhibits people reacting to situations with spontaneity and imagination

Laois76 (Laois) - 29/08/2017 20:41:06    2040367

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a team needs to be balanced..capable of playing different styles..look at kerry under jack o connor and tyrone in the 2000s..could be defensive but could blow you away at the same time when they wanted to...kerry notably very defensive v cork in 2009 second half....jim gavin and his staff really deserve massive credit in the way in which they have turned us into such a balanced team capable of setting up in any way we wish dependent on the opposition we are playing...before the donegal game it was all gung ho and we were left very open but ever since its real balanced stuff where there is very little openings compared to the first couple of years

alano12 (Dublin) - 29/08/2017 20:47:25    2040372

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The failure of Donegal's and now Tyrone's system is a right kick up the backside for Joe Brolly. It was painful to listen to him talk about Kerry being beaten by Donegal in 2012 and nothing prepared them for 'the system' and 'systems' were going to dominate in future. At times he reached orgasmic levels of excitement this year when describing how Tyrone 'invite you in to the spider's web'. Well Dublin dismantled the spider's web like it was an old cobweb hanging from the ceiling.

Laois76 (Laois) - 29/08/2017 20:47:26    2040373

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"The system" is a way to insult or patronise teams you don't like. If you like a team who does well, it's all down to "brilliant players" and if you dislike a team who does well, you say that they do well "because they play to a system". In reality, every team has a game plan; and no system is worth a hill of beans unless you have top players to implement it.

essmac (Tyrone) - 29/08/2017 20:55:05    2040379

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Replying To essmac:  ""The system" is a way to insult or patronise teams you don't like. If you like a team who does well, it's all down to "brilliant players" and if you dislike a team who does well, you say that they do well "because they play to a system". In reality, every team has a game plan; and no system is worth a hill of beans unless you have top players to implement it."
well said..people love to stick the boot in if given the opportunity..mayo players notoriously the victims for it

alano12 (Dublin) - 29/08/2017 21:14:17    2040388

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I think the opening post is a good one. All teams have a system or a style and the best teams have mastered more than one way of playing. But the danger when all players and clubs from a county buy into the same system and stunt the potential for creativity, is probably something which the likes of Jimmy McGuiness may not have foreseen. The blanket reached it's pinnacle in 2011 and 2012, with its last throw (excuse the pun) in 2014. The Dubs have shredded it ever since and now it's just one of numerous strategies a side needs to understand.

Pericles (Mayo) - 29/08/2017 21:34:23    2040401

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Replying To essmac:  ""The system" is a way to insult or patronise teams you don't like. If you like a team who does well, it's all down to "brilliant players" and if you dislike a team who does well, you say that they do well "because they play to a system". In reality, every team has a game plan; and no system is worth a hill of beans unless you have top players to implement it."
You 100% correct, just used as a stick to beat teans people don't like, usually teams from Ulster. I mean all the top teams have some kind of system. Do people seriously think Jim Gavin just throws his best 15 players onto the pitch and hopes for the best. Dublin and Mayo have the best balance between defence and attack and that is why they are in the All Ireland final. As you say no system is of any use unless you have good players.

Tyrone simply did not play to their potential last weekend, especially from a defensive point of view. They had a bad day at the office in the worst of all places - Croke Park. Unfotunately some people take great joy in others misery, sad really.

Green_Gold (Donegal) - 29/08/2017 21:35:01    2040402

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "You 100% correct, just used as a stick to beat teans people don't like, usually teams from Ulster. I mean all the top teams have some kind of system. Do people seriously think Jim Gavin just throws his best 15 players onto the pitch and hopes for the best. Dublin and Mayo have the best balance between defence and attack and that is why they are in the All Ireland final. As you say no system is of any use unless you have good players.

Tyrone simply did not play to their potential last weekend, especially from a defensive point of view. They had a bad day at the office in the worst of all places - Croke Park. Unfotunately some people take great joy in others misery, sad really."
People probably take joy in teams like Tyrone losing because they've generally played very negative football over the last few years, the same applied to Donegal.

People don't really like watching negative football so when it's beaten it's a good day for the sport.

There is nothing wrong with football fans thinking like that it's the way fans in all sports think.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - 29/08/2017 22:11:40    2040432

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Replying To Green_Gold:  "You 100% correct, just used as a stick to beat teans people don't like, usually teams from Ulster. I mean all the top teams have some kind of system. Do people seriously think Jim Gavin just throws his best 15 players onto the pitch and hopes for the best. Dublin and Mayo have the best balance between defence and attack and that is why they are in the All Ireland final. As you say no system is of any use unless you have good players.

Tyrone simply did not play to their potential last weekend, especially from a defensive point of view. They had a bad day at the office in the worst of all places - Croke Park. Unfotunately some people take great joy in others misery, sad really."
There's been a lot of really good points made on this subject.
I think people are starting to notice just how fast the game is evolving. It's crazy really. Styles of play can't last any longer than a year anymore it seems.
Contrary to me using the defeat as a stick to beat Tyrone with I'm actually acknowledging that a bunch of really talented players in Tyrone didn't perform and the reason I feel is that they were 100% sure of their game plan to the point where there was no indivial responsibility taken. Compare yesterday to Donegal v Dublin in 2014 or Mayo Saturday. Individuals were taking responsibility and putting in huge tackles. Think back to Donegal v Tyrone in June. Donegal were perfectly lined out. But it wasn't worth a damn because no one broke the defensive line to put in tackles. I 100% appreciate the players it's just the intensity wasn't there.

theweanling (Cavan) - 29/08/2017 22:48:43    2040459

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Replying To essmac:  ""The system" is a way to insult or patronise teams you don't like. If you like a team who does well, it's all down to "brilliant players" and if you dislike a team who does well, you say that they do well "because they play to a system". In reality, every team has a game plan; and no system is worth a hill of beans unless you have top players to implement it."
Well said, Couldnt agree more.

Lifford Gael (Donegal) - 29/08/2017 23:16:15    2040490

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Replying To uibhfhaili1986:  "People probably take joy in teams like Tyrone losing because they've generally played very negative football over the last few years, the same applied to Donegal.

People don't really like watching negative football so when it's beaten it's a good day for the sport.

There is nothing wrong with football fans thinking like that it's the way fans in all sports think."
negative football?..defensive/conservative maybe...a team perfectly executing a counter attack isnt bad to watch at all..its when they are stuck in a defensive system or its played badly then its bad to watch..tyrone are responsible for some of the best football ive ever witnessed in croke park including against my own county...donegal in 2012 werent that bad to watch in my view

alano12 (Dublin) - 29/08/2017 23:43:08    2040514

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Replying To uibhfhaili1986:  "People probably take joy in teams like Tyrone losing because they've generally played very negative football over the last few years, the same applied to Donegal.

People don't really like watching negative football so when it's beaten it's a good day for the sport.

There is nothing wrong with football fans thinking like that it's the way fans in all sports think."
theres something wrong with people holding a bias against certain counties and not being able to understand the game at the same time..the idea that the likes of us or kerry have never played 'negative football' as you say when it suited us is naive in the extreme..every county plays to certain tactics depending on the opposition..there is no right or wrong way to play the game..its all about putting yourself in the best position to win and all the best teams can play any style they want

alano12 (Dublin) - 29/08/2017 23:46:13    2040518

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These threads are getting funnier by the day .

OMG people - Dublin play to a 'system '

Dublin drop at times 15 behind the ball.

You would think there is something wrong about having a system.

You know why Dublin are beating the system ?

It's because they have a amazing manager with phenomenal players who can play in a variety of ways .

Yous would think Gavin just decides on match day what way to play .

It's actually a disservice to a great manager and brilliant players .

These threads are laughable .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - 30/08/2017 08:11:50    2040563

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Replying To alano12:  "negative football?..defensive/conservative maybe...a team perfectly executing a counter attack isnt bad to watch at all..its when they are stuck in a defensive system or its played badly then its bad to watch..tyrone are responsible for some of the best football ive ever witnessed in croke park including against my own county...donegal in 2012 werent that bad to watch in my view"
Nothng wrong with the Tyrone teams of the 00's they played some good football and had loads of skilful players.Plenty wrong with this years Tyrone team they were dreadful at the weekend and if their defensive style being so easily dealt with by Dublin convinces people that maybe it's not such a good idea then that is good for the game.Tyrone were over hyped coming into the dublin match and the one dimensional nature of their play (which as fairly obvious before the match) was destroyed.

There was plenty worng with how Donegal played in 2011 , in 2012 they played good football because they could attack effectively and the purpose of their defenive play as to hel them win the ball back so they could get more scores.

I'm all for overly defensive negative football being beaten and being beaten over and over again until we get rid of overly defenive play from the game it's been proven now that it doesn't really work anymore.

Overly defensive play and an ephasis on that rather than skilful defens e and skilful attacking has bene a scurge on football and hopefully it dies out very soon.The ay Dublin defend by defending agrresively and stripping the ball form there opponents is teh way to defend.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - 30/08/2017 08:33:45    2040567

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