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Fitz vs Shefflin & Duignan

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get back in your box davy!

ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 25/07/2017 08:56:39    2022974

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Replying To tearintom:  "But what do people want?

Just go out and hurl 15 and 15 even if that means you have no chance of progress? Get the ball and leather it as far as possible to the next pair of players battling it out.

Would people be happy with that?

Its easy for the likes of Shefflin to romance about that way of playing, he played on the the best county team of the era. Would he have the same approach if he had been with a county team struggling to establish themselves after years in the wilderness?

To me theres a little bit of snobbery towards teams and managers trying something different, a little bit of how dare someone think a little differently just turn up and take your beating 15 on 15."
Duignan touched on this and you're last comment is exactly the type of negativity that these game plans are breeding. these VERY GOOD wexford and waterford players are being told they CAN'T win against Tipp, kilkenny, etc playing man for man, that their only hope is to play a sweeper/ zonal defence etc. Duignan did touch on it when he mentioned that players skills should be improved. he's right they should!!! improve these players and encourage them to reach that level using their natural ability but don't tell them they can't reach that level because thats what blanket defences are telling players. trust me i know, i follow cavan!!

theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 25/07/2017 11:03:28    2023055

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This sums it up perfectly I think lads

http://www.performtraynor.ie/2017/07/25/to-sweep-or-not-to-sweep-that-is-the-question/

OldSchoolRules (Australia) - Posts: 10 - 25/07/2017 12:17:41    2023122

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Replying To slayer:  "Laois76 wrote:

Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.

Their game was based on keeping the ball though. By the 2004 final they had perfected the game so much that they held Kilkenny to 0-8 in the All-Ireland final. No sweepers etc. To be honest I thought that Cork team raised skill levels all over the place as it meant teams couldn't risk giving it away."
Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.


And if remember rightly Kilkenny dethroned them in 2006 by packing the middle third and slowing the Cork possession game down. They were crowding Cork players, hunting in packs in a manner not dis-similar to Tyrone of that era in the football. It's crazy to "blame" one team or another for the game changing...the game evolves because teams develop tactics to beat those at the top. Cork adopted the running and possession game because they had two midfielders who could cover a serious amount of ground and an athletic half back line. Kilkenny tweaked their approach in the mid-2000s to stop them because they couldn't match them at that game. Sweepers are deployed to nullify opposition strengths - big deal.

There's been a few posts here harking back to the days of ground hurling and overhead striking. Those days are long gone lads! Wexford 1996 or Offaly 1998 were probably the last teams I can remember who used ground hurling regularly and that could just be illusion of the memory. Modern hurling delivers some classics just as hurling from bygone eras did. There was some awful muck played in the 80s and 90s too.

hooknblock (Waterford) - Posts: 5 - 25/07/2017 12:27:57    2023134

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Replying To perfect10:  "well davy did manage clare to an all-ireland,by your logic sure kk would have won ai's with or without cody,ffs man get a grip somebody has to manage the team.
and davy has 2 all-ireland medals more than most of us mere mortals.i doubt he cares what you think."
i agree that he doesn't care what i think. But this is a forum where opinions are expressed. But lets look closer.

Davy inherited one of the most talent laden teams ever produced in Clare. And did nothing with them. I stated that Clare would have won in 2013 despite Davy and you must remember the Miwadi and biscuits saga.

But put that to one side. 2014 Lost only game in munster went out in qualifiers
2015 lost only game in munster went out in qualifiers
2016 lost only game in munster went out in Q final

The he jumps ship and goes to wexford. Where they exit at the same stage as they did last year. So no progress there bar a visit and a heavy defeat in the Leinster Final.

So then we look at Davy himself. The record shows the following . Last sunday Waterford knew they could keep we Wexford at arms length due to Davy's refusal to change tactic's. The goal put a gloss on it for Wexford who were beaten by more than the score suggests. He has carried the same tactic around for years and is an easy read.

Regarding your Cody comment i think proof is there this year above any year regarding cody. He is a great manager hold a tight reins on his players and is a good motivator. How ever this year showed if the players aren't there they just aren't there and the mighty cody cant change that.

This thread is about Davy's rant at pundits. And simple as he hasnt a leg to stand on. His hurling is awful to look at. Isnt getting results and most of all isnt adaptable. 6 DOWN AGAINST 14 MEN and he still couldnt adapt. So yeah your right Davy doesnt care what i say. But the pundits are right his hurling is awful to watch . And if he was getting results then fine he could justify it but reality is he brings no team on and as we saw in clare he took an all ireland winning team and broke them down

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 25/07/2017 16:23:05    2023332

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Loughnane thinks Davy is being ridiculous.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/07/2017 16:53:55    2023355

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Replying To ritchie:  "i agree that he doesn't care what i think. But this is a forum where opinions are expressed. But lets look closer.

Davy inherited one of the most talent laden teams ever produced in Clare. And did nothing with them. I stated that Clare would have won in 2013 despite Davy and you must remember the Miwadi and biscuits saga.

But put that to one side. 2014 Lost only game in munster went out in qualifiers
2015 lost only game in munster went out in qualifiers
2016 lost only game in munster went out in Q final

The he jumps ship and goes to wexford. Where they exit at the same stage as they did last year. So no progress there bar a visit and a heavy defeat in the Leinster Final.

So then we look at Davy himself. The record shows the following . Last sunday Waterford knew they could keep we Wexford at arms length due to Davy's refusal to change tactic's. The goal put a gloss on it for Wexford who were beaten by more than the score suggests. He has carried the same tactic around for years and is an easy read.

Regarding your Cody comment i think proof is there this year above any year regarding cody. He is a great manager hold a tight reins on his players and is a good motivator. How ever this year showed if the players aren't there they just aren't there and the mighty cody cant change that.

This thread is about Davy's rant at pundits. And simple as he hasnt a leg to stand on. His hurling is awful to look at. Isnt getting results and most of all isnt adaptable. 6 DOWN AGAINST 14 MEN and he still couldnt adapt. So yeah your right Davy doesnt care what i say. But the pundits are right his hurling is awful to watch . And if he was getting results then fine he could justify it but reality is he brings no team on and as we saw in clare he took an all ireland winning team and broke them down"
No offence but your post is all over the shop!

Davy brings no team on!!

This year alone he has brought wexford up to the top table in terms of the league, a division we had been stuck in for 5 years. We beat Kilkenny for the first time since 2004 and reached our first Leinster final in almost a decade.

He brought Waterford to an all Ireland final, they don't get to many in case ye hadn't noticed.

And in Clare this all Ireland winning team he dismantled apparently were all ireland champions with him at the helm and happened to pick up a league title in to the bag.

I don't mind people disliking his methods and not liking how his teams and the approach he takes. That's all a matter of opinion but to come out with this other stuff about him bringing on no team during his tenure when the facts are the very opposite. At least have the wherewithal to deal with the facts as they are rather than coming up with some alternative reality that doesn't actually exist.

It seems people have such a dislike for the man that they lose all sight of reality when talking about him, by all means dislike him, dislike his approach, dislike his tactics but let's not try and reinvent the facts as they are plain and simple.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1348 - 25/07/2017 17:15:35    2023366

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ritchie, sport is a results industry and Davy and Derek McGrath have no duty to play appealing hurling just because pundits (who never managed a team to any success in their lives) and some fans don't like it.
Would I have rathered we played 15 v 15 and lost to Limerick and Galway in the league? No.
Would I rather we played 15 v 15 and lost to Kilkenny by 20 points twice like we did 2 years ago? No.
Do I think hurling is over analysed? Yes.

But you would swear it was Henry and Michael's game and how dare anybody try something different. That attitude is pathetic to be honest, Davy and Derek are trying something different, who cares what a couple of analysts think.

Fair play to Damien Hayes and JJ Delaney on the sports joe GAA hour, both said what they thought of Duignan and also of his comments.

Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 25/07/2017 17:51:16    2023391

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Replying To Pinkie:  "ritchie, sport is a results industry and Davy and Derek McGrath have no duty to play appealing hurling just because pundits (who never managed a team to any success in their lives) and some fans don't like it.
Would I have rathered we played 15 v 15 and lost to Limerick and Galway in the league? No.
Would I rather we played 15 v 15 and lost to Kilkenny by 20 points twice like we did 2 years ago? No.
Do I think hurling is over analysed? Yes.

But you would swear it was Henry and Michael's game and how dare anybody try something different. That attitude is pathetic to be honest, Davy and Derek are trying something different, who cares what a couple of analysts think.

Fair play to Damien Hayes and JJ Delaney on the sports joe GAA hour, both said what they thought of Duignan and also of his comments."
Pinkie how is the form. We talked about different things over the years and always respect your opinion. But... The style of play doesnt work. Forget the pundits and this that and the other. Simple fact are the style of play doesnt work. No team have been successful with it. It cost wexford the Q final it cost waterford the Munster semi final it cost clare the munster final. The boys are right. Its awful to watch and it is. So take your point about loosing 15 v 15 reality is those systems are loosing anyway so instead of training to win its training for damage limitation

ritchie (Cork) - Posts: 346 - 25/07/2017 18:00:30    2023395

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Replying To hooknblock:  "
Replying To slayer:  "Laois76 wrote:

Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.

Their game was based on keeping the ball though. By the 2004 final they had perfected the game so much that they held Kilkenny to 0-8 in the All-Ireland final. No sweepers etc. To be honest I thought that Cork team raised skill levels all over the place as it meant teams couldn't risk giving it away."
Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.


And if remember rightly Kilkenny dethroned them in 2006 by packing the middle third and slowing the Cork possession game down. They were crowding Cork players, hunting in packs in a manner not dis-similar to Tyrone of that era in the football. It's crazy to "blame" one team or another for the game changing...the game evolves because teams develop tactics to beat those at the top. Cork adopted the running and possession game because they had two midfielders who could cover a serious amount of ground and an athletic half back line. Kilkenny tweaked their approach in the mid-2000s to stop them because they couldn't match them at that game. Sweepers are deployed to nullify opposition strengths - big deal.

There's been a few posts here harking back to the days of ground hurling and overhead striking. Those days are long gone lads! Wexford 1996 or Offaly 1998 were probably the last teams I can remember who used ground hurling regularly and that could just be illusion of the memory. Modern hurling delivers some classics just as hurling from bygone eras did. There was some awful muck played in the 80s and 90s too."
Spot on. The reality is the great players and teams of yesterday would not stand a chance with their style against today's teams. That does not mean that they were not great players and would not be great players if playing today. After 50 years or more watching, the teams of the past were pedestrian, could get away with pulling slower, lacked the speed and strength of todays players and were no way near as professional. Lucky to have one or two good scorers. Today the corner backs can score because the style of play allows them to go forward. There can be an argument if that is for better or not. However it is the reality. Take off the blinkers trying to compare the game today with yesterday and what it will be like in the future.
There are good pundits and not so good ones. The goods ones do analysis on the games as played. Others think they no more about teams than their coaches.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2664 - 25/07/2017 19:22:43    2023433

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Replying To Canuck:  "
Replying To hooknblock:  "[quote=slayer:  "Laois76 wrote:

Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.

Their game was based on keeping the ball though. By the 2004 final they had perfected the game so much that they held Kilkenny to 0-8 in the All-Ireland final. No sweepers etc. To be honest I thought that Cork team raised skill levels all over the place as it meant teams couldn't risk giving it away."
Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.


And if remember rightly Kilkenny dethroned them in 2006 by packing the middle third and slowing the Cork possession game down. They were crowding Cork players, hunting in packs in a manner not dis-similar to Tyrone of that era in the football. It's crazy to "blame" one team or another for the game changing...the game evolves because teams develop tactics to beat those at the top. Cork adopted the running and possession game because they had two midfielders who could cover a serious amount of ground and an athletic half back line. Kilkenny tweaked their approach in the mid-2000s to stop them because they couldn't match them at that game. Sweepers are deployed to nullify opposition strengths - big deal.

There's been a few posts here harking back to the days of ground hurling and overhead striking. Those days are long gone lads! Wexford 1996 or Offaly 1998 were probably the last teams I can remember who used ground hurling regularly and that could just be illusion of the memory. Modern hurling delivers some classics just as hurling from bygone eras did. There was some awful muck played in the 80s and 90s too."
Spot on. The reality is the great players and teams of yesterday would not stand a chance with their style against today's teams. That does not mean that they were not great players and would not be great players if playing today. After 50 years or more watching, the teams of the past were pedestrian, could get away with pulling slower, lacked the speed and strength of todays players and were no way near as professional. Lucky to have one or two good scorers. Today the corner backs can score because the style of play allows them to go forward. There can be an argument if that is for better or not. However it is the reality. Take off the blinkers trying to compare the game today with yesterday and what it will be like in the future.
There are good pundits and not so good ones. The goods ones do analysis on the games as played. Others think they no more about teams than their coaches."]All well and good but the end product is not good to look at mostly today. Sunday was a borefest.

Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 25/07/2017 19:55:43    2023446

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Was Shefflin not commenting on how players like C Mcdonald was not able to hurl in such a situation maybe I am wrong ,as the Waterford man said there the game is moving on if that's the case places like Pairc I Caoimh will be half empty as supporters will not go watch matches like that. Did anybody listen to B Cummins comment during the match when Wexford kept loading the balls in on top of Dburcai he said he is the only man in there with red helmet perfectbly identifiable they still throw balls in where he is. As regards that Waterford mans remarks about Shefflin way out and some of the tactics kilkenny used during there success ye had some bad apels see what Mullane did to a young lad in a challenge match.

johnwhite12 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 306 - 25/07/2017 20:06:46    2023450

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Decent enough hurling Championship and then a match like this comes along and hurling is dead forever!

Davy no good for nothing - after the year and progress Wexford have had! Success with Clare, Waterford, colleges! Your having a laugh

One of the games most high profile analyst stated in 2013 that his one hope for this young Clare team is that they would do themselves justice and win many more titles. At least Donal Og had the balls to enter the arena and see how difficult it really is!

Maybe if Davy doesnt continue with Wexford next year its a job perfectly setup for the King. Surley with the shackles off playing 15 on 15 they would win the next 5 under his guidance - or maybe he's just happy to talk

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 25/07/2017 21:17:10    2023487

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Replying To Ban:  "Decent enough hurling Championship and then a match like this comes along and hurling is dead forever!

Davy no good for nothing - after the year and progress Wexford have had! Success with Clare, Waterford, colleges! Your having a laugh

One of the games most high profile analyst stated in 2013 that his one hope for this young Clare team is that they would do themselves justice and win many more titles. At least Donal Og had the balls to enter the arena and see how difficult it really is!

Maybe if Davy doesnt continue with Wexford next year its a job perfectly setup for the King. Surley with the shackles off playing 15 on 15 they would win the next 5 under his guidance - or maybe he's just happy to talk"
Is he still not hurling with the Shamrocks,

johnwhite12 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 306 - 25/07/2017 21:56:04    2023507

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Replying To johnwhite12:  "Is he still not hurling with the Shamrocks,"
I dont know! Is he?

Either way, I'm sure the opportunity to manage a team languishing in division 1b for many years wont pass him. He's the man to take the shackles off that team, play pretty hurling entertaining the nation and win an All-Ireland.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts: 1415 - 25/07/2017 22:31:43    2023531

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Replying To johnwhite12:  "Was Shefflin not commenting on how players like C Mcdonald was not able to hurl in such a situation maybe I am wrong ,as the Waterford man said there the game is moving on if that's the case places like Pairc I Caoimh will be half empty as supporters will not go watch matches like that. Did anybody listen to B Cummins comment during the match when Wexford kept loading the balls in on top of Dburcai he said he is the only man in there with red helmet perfectbly identifiable they still throw balls in where he is. As regards that Waterford mans remarks about Shefflin way out and some of the tactics kilkenny used during there success ye had some bad apels see what Mullane did to a young lad in a challenge match."
All teams have had players who did things they should not be proud of. In a league semi final in the 70's a famous Kilkenny centre half back chased Ken MCGrath's dad the length of the field pulled over the top from behind and broke his wrist badly. Pat could take care of himself too. You could be bringing up things like both of these incidents forever but are best in the past now.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2664 - 25/07/2017 23:43:18    2023587

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Replying To johnwhite12:  "Was Shefflin not commenting on how players like C Mcdonald was not able to hurl in such a situation maybe I am wrong ,as the Waterford man said there the game is moving on if that's the case places like Pairc I Caoimh will be half empty as supporters will not go watch matches like that. Did anybody listen to B Cummins comment during the match when Wexford kept loading the balls in on top of Dburcai he said he is the only man in there with red helmet perfectbly identifiable they still throw balls in where he is. As regards that Waterford mans remarks about Shefflin way out and some of the tactics kilkenny used during there success ye had some bad apels see what Mullane did to a young lad in a challenge match."
Also there is this obsession with Tadhg DeBurca (the u has a fada). I would like to see the stats on how many time he wins the ball in the air between two or three opponents. I know it is a significant amount. One of the truly get players of this generation.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2664 - 25/07/2017 23:49:02    2023589

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Replying To OldSchoolRules:  "This sums it up perfectly I think lads

Spot" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.performtraynor.ie/2017/07/25/to-sweep-or-not-to-sweep-that-is-the-question/"
Spot on

icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2553 - 26/07/2017 08:34:05    2023634

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Is there stilla a hint of rivalry and bitterness left from 1998 I wonder

preddan (Kildare) - Posts: 738 - 26/07/2017 14:11:01    2023883

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Replying To Canuck:  "All teams have had players who did things they should not be proud of. In a league semi final in the 70's a famous Kilkenny centre half back chased Ken MCGrath's dad the length of the field pulled over the top from behind and broke his wrist badly. Pat could take care of himself too. You could be bringing up things like both of these incidents forever but are best in the past now."
What league semifinal did that happen in the 1970s.

johnwhite12 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 306 - 26/07/2017 21:35:46    2024162

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