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I have to say I like Duignan in general and he's entitled to his informed opinion.
The managing at intercounty level probably not possible due to his circumstances.
Shefflin mightn't like what he saw either and is obviously seeing things from a forwards and entertainment angle. It doesn't always look pretty Henry and not everyone will care about how silky the performance looks.
Fitzgerald will live and die by the game plan he sets up with and is entitled to do as he sees fit while in charge but should be a bit more thick-skinned instead of getting wound up so easily.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 24/07/2017 19:39:50
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Duignans entitled to his opinion and I generally find him a fair and decent sort of character.
His circumstances probably limited his ability to commit to the demands of long term management as he had to look after a couple of young kids.
Shefflin is probably seeing the forwards point of view but it's not always going to be silky skilled and great to watch.
As a manager , Fitzgerald is entitled to set his team up any way he sees fit while in charge.
He probably needs to shut up though and grow a thicker skin.
catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 24/07/2017 20:49:40
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Replying To Canuck: "That is exactly what the traditionalist want to keep the elites at the top. Go to the pub and talk about how bad Wex, Wat, Clare, Dub and Lim are when shipping 35 point beatings.
Patronizing Laois, Carlow, Antrim, Westmeath because they perceive them as never been a treath. ' A sure they are improving' "there are good hurlers in them counties' "They stayed with us well for 15 minutes' These are the people who bemoan any change in tactics that might have other counties challenge them." Canuck simple question what has this muck that Waterford have served up at times gained them???? That had just as much success and more when they just went out and hurled with abandon.......they have the players as they showed last year and indeed with their u21s in 2016......believe I would love Waterford to win an all Ireland but not playing this paralysis hurling as it would destroy hurling the same way that Donegal winning the football led to every team in the country from u14 to senior playing sweepers....we have the greatest game in the world why are we trying to destroy it
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 24/07/2017 21:22:10
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Replying To Condorman: "I hate what Davy and Derek have done to hurling.The glory of hurling was its speed, its unpredictability , its wildness, its skill , its brio.
Davy and Derek want their men to play safety first, ball in the hand, dull, predictable possession hurling.
There is virtually no ground hurling, no overhead striking, no flow to the game they want.
2013 was a fluke, Tipp & KK took themselves out, Galway & Limerick didn't perform which allowed Davy's Clare win the McCarthy and even then he seemed to allow his players more freedom than normal to win the replay.
I don't see a team using the sweeper having success again.
Thank God." What an excellent post Sir.
KK1926 (Kilkenny) - Posts: 175 - 24/07/2017 22:04:02
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They both have a point. Davy and Derek have to do what is best for their teams. They put in savage hours of dedication to the cause. I have 100% respect for both of them.
That doesn't mean I have to like it. Yesterday match was drivel. I only went out of curiosity. It was my first intercounty game this year. I didn't like what I saw so it will be my last. I'll continue to go to club games.
If enough people don't like it, they will stop going and those who are charged with looking after our game will implement rule changes to ensure that the game becomes more attractive. But for now, Davy, Derek, Donal Moloney, Donal Og etc are not breaking any rules. They are just trying to win.
bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 24/07/2017 22:14:23
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Replying To festinog: "http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=273398
Well holy God. I find myself completely in agreement with Davy Fitz, and normally I can't stick the man!
This is the most open championship we've had for years, and while it remains to be seen if the sweeper system has what it takes to lift Liam in September, I for one will certainly not argue against the tremendously enjoyable diversity in styles that it brings to the table.
You'd wonder if RTE pay bonuses to their pundits for every headline created? These two are quickly shaping up to be the Joe Brolly and Pat Spillane of Hurling." http://www.newstalk.com/davy-fitz-interview-2017
Great interview with Fitzy.. Wexford did not play well yesterday but have been good to watch in most games this year..
Groundball (Wexford) - Posts: 122 - 24/07/2017 22:17:59
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Replying To PaudieSull1: "Canuck simple question what has this muck that Waterford have served up at times gained them???? That had just as much success and more when they just went out and hurled with abandon.......they have the players as they showed last year and indeed with their u21s in 2016......believe I would love Waterford to win an all Ireland but not playing this paralysis hurling as it would destroy hurling the same way that Donegal winning the football led to every team in the country from u14 to senior playing sweepers....we have the greatest game in the world why are we trying to destroy it" 1. They are in their third semi in a row. A record for them.
2. They have one won 1 league and 1 stolen from them.
3. There is no a major difference between under age and senior.
4. They have scored more under this system than any period in the past.
5. They are still a very young team that the manager is going to protect against heavy defeats.
6. Tactics are often driven by how the opposition are set up.
This season is not over yet and lets talk when we see what it may yet yield for them. In fifty years of following Waterford I have seen too many games where they were great, lost and the pundits saying how naive they were. There full backs were lambasted for years. Funny I do not see anyone destroying them lately except in last years munster final when they played the traditional game. Tadgh may sweep on to the ball but how often does he also contest the ball among players and come away with it in his hand.
I am sure you would not care how your beloved Down set up if they were receiving the Sam Maguire in September. You may deny this but I would not believe it.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2664 - 24/07/2017 22:19:22
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Replying To PaudieSull1: "Canuck simple question what has this muck that Waterford have served up at times gained them???? That had just as much success and more when they just went out and hurled with abandon.......they have the players as they showed last year and indeed with their u21s in 2016......believe I would love Waterford to win an all Ireland but not playing this paralysis hurling as it would destroy hurling the same way that Donegal winning the football led to every team in the country from u14 to senior playing sweepers....we have the greatest game in the world why are we trying to destroy it" I have to agree with Paudi on this one Canuck. Waterford have the players to play a more positive style of hurling and win an All-Ireland.
I can see why McGrath used a sweeper in his 1st year or two to help transition in the talent youngsters at his disposal.
Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 24/07/2017 22:25:30
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Replying To Canuck: "1. They are in their third semi in a row. A record for them.
2. They have one won 1 league and 1 stolen from them.
3. There is no a major difference between under age and senior.
4. They have scored more under this system than any period in the past.
5. They are still a very young team that the manager is going to protect against heavy defeats.
6. Tactics are often driven by how the opposition are set up.
This season is not over yet and lets talk when we see what it may yet yield for them. In fifty years of following Waterford I have seen too many games where they were great, lost and the pundits saying how naive they were. There full backs were lambasted for years. Funny I do not see anyone destroying them lately except in last years munster final when they played the traditional game. Tadgh may sweep on to the ball but how often does he also contest the ball among players and come away with it in his hand.
I am sure you would not care how your beloved Down set up if they were receiving the Sam Maguire in September. You may deny this but I would not believe it." Canuck I'm not that fussed how Down do in the football to be honest !! Waterford could well beat Cork in semi final and if they do I will be rooting for them in the final but my point is I think Derek should trust his players more and let them off the leash.....I understand why he wanted to avoid heavy defeats in the first couple of years but now they are an experienced and battle hardened team so he should take the shackles off.........I just don't see how they will score enough against both Cork and the winners of Galway/Tipp to win an all Ireland but I think he has the hurlers if he lets them hurl......they are in their 3rd successive semi final so they are no longer a young inexperienced team, time to deliver but that won't happen under current constraints
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 24/07/2017 22:47:43
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Replying To Killarney.87: "I have to agree with Paudi on this one Canuck. Waterford have the players to play a more positive style of hurling and win an All-Ireland.
I can see why McGrath used a sweeper in his 1st year or two to help transition in the talent youngsters at his disposal." Lets face it the game of the past is gone and has always evolved over the years. Every team now uses their goal keeper more. Could you see John Doyle or Fan Larkin passes the ball back to the goalie. Move on the game is in continuous change. This may not be the system in 5 years time and people will still be wishing for the old game. Waterford will play a different game in the semi final but still inside the structure that got them there.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2664 - 24/07/2017 22:50:56
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Replying To Canuck: "Davy is spot on and has the b-lls to stand up to these pundits arm chairs critics who only want to maintain the status quo. The sooner Laois, Offaly, Carlow Westmeath, Kerry Antrim etc. get coaches who can teach them how to avoid getting scorched by the elites the better. Henry was a great player but did not mind hanging around for the loose ball with no one near him or capitalising on the hard graft of his mates. He would not get that space against any of these two teams today. Good for him but the game needed new tactics to make more teams competitive. It is so funny to hear people talking about defending in numbers now when the cats were the first to do it bringing back their half forwards to crowd out the opposition half forwards. As for Duignan. Does not demand a comment." Absolute, complete and utter rubbish. Shefflin was one of the hardest working and unselfish forwards of his generation. I'd be willing to bet that he created more scores for his teammates than they did for him.
And you don't win 10 All Ireland medals, on a Brian Cody team, by "hanging around waiting for the loose ball", you had best believe that.
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 24/07/2017 23:05:10
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Replying To ballydalane: "Absolute, complete and utter rubbish. Shefflin was one of the hardest working and unselfish forwards of his generation. I'd be willing to bet that he created more scores for his teammates than they did for him.
And you don't win 10 All Ireland medals, on a Brian Cody team, by "hanging around waiting for the loose ball", you had best believe that." Agreed Ballydalane......Shefflin greatest hurler of his generation, one of the best ever (hard to say who was the greatest ever).......his performance in the 2nd half of all Ireland final 2012 was like re-living the stories my father told me of Ring, Mackey, Doyle etc, after that game you walked away thinking you had just watched one of the all time greats........
PaudieSull1 (Down) - Posts: 738 - 25/07/2017 00:07:14
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Replying To Canuck: "Davy is spot on and has the b-lls to stand up to these pundits arm chairs critics who only want to maintain the status quo. The sooner Laois, Offaly, Carlow Westmeath, Kerry Antrim etc. get coaches who can teach them how to avoid getting scorched by the elites the better. Henry was a great player but did not mind hanging around for the loose ball with no one near him or capitalising on the hard graft of his mates. He would not get that space against any of these two teams today. Good for him but the game needed new tactics to make more teams competitive. It is so funny to hear people talking about defending in numbers now when the cats were the first to do it bringing back their half forwards to crowd out the opposition half forwards. As for Duignan. Does not demand a comment." Laois under Cheddar Plunkett played the double sweepers for a couple of years. They ran Clare to 4 pts in a league quarter final and Galway to a few points in the Championship. But they were set up in a way they could never win and it was just damage limitation. Fellas training soon get tired of that.
Start with your youth and develop your skill set so chaps feel confident they can mark their man.
Your post smacks of real anti Kilkenny begrudgery. A pity Waterford 2001-2007 didn't win an all-ireland. They played with the old Waterford classy style. They were far closer to winning an all-ireland in 2006 and 2007 than i think the current Waterford team are. When you start playing the safety first game your conceding psychological advantage to the opposition straight away that you don't think man for man your as good. That's a loser's philosophy.
Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 25/07/2017 00:53:13
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Replying To ballydalane: "Absolute, complete and utter rubbish. Shefflin was one of the hardest working and unselfish forwards of his generation. I'd be willing to bet that he created more scores for his teammates than they did for him.
And you don't win 10 All Ireland medals, on a Brian Cody team, by "hanging around waiting for the loose ball", you had best believe that." It is not about criticizing Sheflin about how he played, or his place in history and was skillful enough to benefit from the style of play during his time. It is about recognizing that there will be new ideas (tactics) by other teams and managers to make sure that there are no other Henry's in Kilk. get 10 medals. That is those managers job.
Everyone has an opinion, rightly so and it an objective view to what is " utter rubbish " . Some would say it is rubbish that Kilk. do not do tactics.
Canuck (Waterford) - Posts: 2664 - 25/07/2017 01:01:15
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Replying To Condorman: "I hate what Davy and Derek have done to hurling.The glory of hurling was its speed, its unpredictability , its wildness, its skill , its brio.
Davy and Derek want their men to play safety first, ball in the hand, dull, predictable possession hurling.
There is virtually no ground hurling, no overhead striking, no flow to the game they want.
2013 was a fluke, Tipp & KK took themselves out, Galway & Limerick didn't perform which allowed Davy's Clare win the McCarthy and even then he seemed to allow his players more freedom than normal to win the replay.
I don't see a team using the sweeper having success again.
Thank God." That's a great post. Part of the allure of hurling was the old celtic warrior game where the ball moved on the ground and with overhead striking with an untamed philosophy.
This 'tippy tappy' hurling is an anathema to the roots of the game.
Sometimes i agree with Ger Loughnane and others i don't but a phrase he coined when Dublin were playing poorly in 2012 comes to mind. 'Pure constipated hurling'.
Waterford, with their tradition and underage success, should have enough confidence to go out and outhurl any team.
I don't like seeing any team getting a bad beating but when Tipp dismatled the 'system' in the 2016 Munster Final i felt it was a good day for hurling.
Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s. Also 2004 Daly using Alan Markham as a sweeper against Kilkenny in the drawn game and replay, seriously upset KK the first day. Then Davy and Derek McGrath really fine tuned it.
Those of us with long enough memories remember Cyril Farrell's radical 3rd man midfielder v Kilkenny in their 13 pt victory in 1986. It created a lot of space for the 2 on 2 inside forward line and congested midfield. 4 goals followed. However Cork tightened down on this space in that year's all-ireland.
At the end of the day fortune generally favours the brave. At the end of the day there's no difference between a 5 point or 15 point beating in the history books or with regard to silverware. So why not work on an offensive strategy that gives you a chance of winning.
That's why i admire Jim Gavin and the Dubs so much. He inherited Gilroy's panel in 2013 but developed a really admirable attacking style of play.
Laois76 (Laois) - Posts: 1270 - 25/07/2017 01:09:34
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Replying To Canuck: "Lets face it the game of the past is gone and has always evolved over the years. Every team now uses their goal keeper more. Could you see John Doyle or Fan Larkin passes the ball back to the goalie. Move on the game is in continuous change. This may not be the system in 5 years time and people will still be wishing for the old game. Waterford will play a different game in the semi final but still inside the structure that got them there." Don't get me wrong I'm not advocating for a return to the 1960s hurling of hitting the sliothar as quickly and as far up the field as possible.
I'm talking about formation and not about approach play. One of Tipp's best scores on Saturday involved 5 or 6 passes with one or two short hand passes.
In my opinion Waterford have the players to play a far more offensive and open brand of hurling. The likes of Dunford and Tommy Ryan are extremely fast. So you could play a completely different style if you wanted to that would be faster and more threatening.
Waterford rarely have more than one player in the full forward line at any given time and that is why the team scores so few goals. I think Waterford have bags of talent. I get why more limited teams would play with sweepers but ultimately the teams that win have the courage to be positive. Thats what disappoints me about Waterford because they don't need to use a sweeper.
Galway this year are the prime example of positive hurling. They are backing themselves the way they play. One thing that really caught my attention from a Michael O'Donoghue's post match interview after the Leinster final was that he said that Galway forced their gameplan on the game again in the second half. That to me is a team saying, we know we are good, we will back ourselves and we will prevail.
Sweepers are all about containment and stopping the opposition. From a tactical point of view I find sweepers interesting but I don't see it as a way forward in hurling. I have nothing against sweepers or the coaches that use them.
The funny thing is Cody used sweepers from time to time in big games but in a more stealth way than Davy and McGrath.
Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/07/2017 05:30:35
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Replying To Canuck: "It is not about criticizing Sheflin about how he played, or his place in history and was skillful enough to benefit from the style of play during his time. It is about recognizing that there will be new ideas (tactics) by other teams and managers to make sure that there are no other Henry's in Kilk. get 10 medals. That is those managers job.
Everyone has an opinion, rightly so and it an objective view to what is " utter rubbish " . Some would say it is rubbish that Kilk. do not do tactics." "It is not about criticizing Sheflin about how he played"
Ha, you're the one who brought up Shefflin's supposed style of play! (which as well as your comments being utterly and demonstrably bogus, had zero relevance to the topic).
ballydalane (Kilkenny) - Posts: 1246 - 25/07/2017 05:37:19
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"Absolute, complete and utter rubbish. Shefflin was one of the hardest working and unselfish forwards of his generation. I'd be willing to bet that he created more scores for his teammates than they did for him."
Would agree with that. Shefflin dragged Kilkenny back into an All-Ireland final v Galway on his own through his own effort. Get the ball to him, he did damage.
But I completely disagree on the criticism of Derek McGrath and Davy / Donal Og, etc. I do think they overdo the analysis and structure, and the likes of Conor Mc looks completely out of it in this game, but maybe they are showing that the game is moving on from the hit and hope game of the past? Is it a bad thing that a lad can put a ball on a saucer from 40 yards? No. Is it a bad thing that teams work the ball up the middle, handpass, move it short, move for a pass back? No.
People complain and yet there was some great long passing from the Waterford goalkeeper. I thought Waterford mixed it up well and were well able to win their long ball too.
Its almost like people want to go back to the time when a corner back would come out and hack somebody coming through the middle out of it, as if that was a better game back then because it was more manly stuff. The game evolves, changes, and I can guarantee you one thing, if Brian Cody was back to last years AI final, he'd drop a man back in front of the Tipp full forward line too if he thought it would win him the game and protect his full back line.
Don't rule out Galway doing it given the form of the Tipp full forward line.....I wonder will it be OK then because one of the top counties do it, rather than plucky upstarts in Wexford and Waterford.
Pinkie (Wexford) - Posts: 4100 - 25/07/2017 08:26:54
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Canuck wrote about Waterford:
They have scored more under this system than any period in the past.
Canuck statistically you have a point, but this claim is in the main backed up by a win over Offaly who are at probably their lowest ebb ever and an extra time win over Kilkenny. Below are the scores from Justin McCarthy led Munster finals:
2002: 2-23 (29)
2003: 3-12 (21)
2004: 3-16 (25)
2007: 3-17 (26)
Average 25.25 points in Munster Finals.
On Sunday Waterford scored 1-23 (26), v Cork they scored 1-15 (18), v Offaly they scored 1-35 (38), AET v Kilkenny they had scored 4-23 (35). Average 26 points per game if you count the Kilkenny match as 1.5 games.
In my opinion, Waterford were a far better team to watch under Justin, they were probably more open at the back and certainly Limerick took full advantage of that in 2001 & 2007 with a full forward who bagged goals against ye. But being honest, I can't see what advantage there is to Derek McGrath's system over Justin's. Three Munster Championships and a NHL title compared to a NHL title. Plus Waterford 02-07 seemed to know how to win all different types of games, won a Munster with 14 men, won a goalless NHL final, beat Cork in a goal filled game 5-15 to 3-18. Derek McGrath's team seem to only know one way of playing & my fear for them is if they get to the All-Ireland final there would be no plan B to face Galway or Tipp.
I can see why teams play with sweepers, but at Inter County level I'm not sure that it adds anything to a team really.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 25/07/2017 08:38:20
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Replying To Laois76: "That's a great post. Part of the allure of hurling was the old celtic warrior game where the ball moved on the ground and with overhead striking with an untamed philosophy.
This 'tippy tappy' hurling is an anathema to the roots of the game.
Sometimes i agree with Ger Loughnane and others i don't but a phrase he coined when Dublin were playing poorly in 2012 comes to mind. 'Pure constipated hurling'.
Waterford, with their tradition and underage success, should have enough confidence to go out and outhurl any team.
I don't like seeing any team getting a bad beating but when Tipp dismatled the 'system' in the 2016 Munster Final i felt it was a good day for hurling.
Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s. Also 2004 Daly using Alan Markham as a sweeper against Kilkenny in the drawn game and replay, seriously upset KK the first day. Then Davy and Derek McGrath really fine tuned it.
Those of us with long enough memories remember Cyril Farrell's radical 3rd man midfielder v Kilkenny in their 13 pt victory in 1986. It created a lot of space for the 2 on 2 inside forward line and congested midfield. 4 goals followed. However Cork tightened down on this space in that year's all-ireland.
At the end of the day fortune generally favours the brave. At the end of the day there's no difference between a 5 point or 15 point beating in the history books or with regard to silverware. So why not work on an offensive strategy that gives you a chance of winning.
That's why i admire Jim Gavin and the Dubs so much. He inherited Gilroy's panel in 2013 but developed a really admirable attacking style of play." Laois76 wrote:
Football practices inevitably did creep into hurling. I don't like blaming counties or individuals but the genesis was possibly the Cork possession game of the mid 2000s.
Their game was based on keeping the ball though. By the 2004 final they had perfected the game so much that they held Kilkenny to 0-8 in the All-Ireland final. No sweepers etc. To be honest I thought that Cork team raised skill levels all over the place as it meant teams couldn't risk giving it away.
slayer (Limerick) - Posts: 6480 - 25/07/2017 08:46:33
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