National Forum

Kerry's easy path

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "What that shows is a very competitive championship up until the 50s, after which Dublin Meath and to a lesser extent Offaly and to a much lesser extent Kildare have taken over.

It hardly shows Leinster as the football stronghold that some here are trying to portray.

I am not an expert on pre 50s football so I will concede that one."
That's harsh to say mate, 6 counties won The Leinster Championship while the Kingdom were winning All Irelands in the 00s, to say Leinster hasn't been competitive since the 50's is unfair. Yet I suppose it again illustrates the article and admin point on an easy run through Munster and the possible toll the competitive Leinster Championship in those years had on playing/preparing Aug/Sep football, certainly Ulster was also fierce.

Look it will never be agreed on, I posted the facts I think they will speak for themselves, fascinating article really whatever side you come down on. I really believe the weak provincial is a contributory factor to Dublin success, I think it will be more so this year then any other. I think other counties have enjoyed that for a long time, it's not their problem, it's just an evidence based belief. :)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 02/06/2017 21:52:05    1993727

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Just to be balanced here is Leinster:

Dublin: 1891, 1892, 1894, 1896, 1897, 1898, 1899, 1901, 1902, 1904, 1906, 1907, 1908, 1920, 1921, 1922, 1923, 1924, 1932, 1933, 1934, 1941, 1942, 1955, 1958, 1959, 1962, 1963, 1965, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1989, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016

Meath: 1895, 1939, 1940, 1947, 1949, 1951, 1952, 1954, 1964, 1966, 1967, 1970, 1986, 1987, 1988, 1990, 1991, 1996, 1999, 2001, 2010

Kildare: 1903, 1905, 1919, 1926, 1927, 1928, 1929, 1930, 1931, 1935, 1956, 1998, 2000

Offaly: 1960, 1961, 1969, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1980, 1981, 1982, 1997

Wexford: 1890, 1893, 1913, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1917, 1918, 1925, 1945

Louth: 1909, 1910, 1912, 1943, 1948, 1950, 1953, 1957

Loais: 1889, 1936, 1937, 1938, 1946, 2003

Kilkenny: 1888, 1900, 1911

Carlow: 1944

Longford: 1968

Westmeath: 2004

Wicklow: Finalists 1897.

It's grim reading for Munster in comparrision to Leinster competitively I am afraid historically until recently. Of course they are probably so sililar level at the moment, albeit less games in Munster."
since 1956 kildare won 2 leinsters,yet people consider them a big gun. been about 80 years since the won sam..

ziggy32001 (Meath) - Posts: 8354 - 02/06/2017 22:03:30    1993735

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Replying To TheUsername:  "That's harsh to say mate, 6 counties won The Leinster Championship while the Kingdom were winning All Irelands in the 00s, to say Leinster hasn't been competitive since the 50's is unfair. Yet I suppose it again illustrates the article and admin point on an easy run through Munster and the possible toll the competitive Leinster Championship in those years had on playing/preparing Aug/Sep football, certainly Ulster was also fierce.

Look it will never be agreed on, I posted the facts I think they will speak for themselves, fascinating article really whatever side you come down on. I really believe the weak provincial is a contributory factor to Dublin success, I think it will be more so this year then any other. I think other counties have enjoyed that for a long time, it's not their problem, it's just an evidence based belief. :)"
Ah I was being a bit facetious The Username. Yes the Leinster championship was shared around a bit in the 00's but how good was the standard honestly? Cork were better than any of those teams IMO and were very unlucky to have that team at the same time as Kerry and Tyrone were around.

It probably has been of a higher standard overall historically, but not to the extent some are making out. Those days are well over in any case. I cannot see Dublin relinquish their hold on the province ever again. They may get caught the odd year but it's basically their competition now.

A full championship shake up is inevitable surely. It's already happening with the Super 8.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 02/06/2017 22:26:42    1993747

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Replying To greatpoint:  "That's a tough position to argue considering that Kerry have the most All-Irelands by some distance."
We have the most AI's because we are the greatest county in Gaelic Football, the equivalent of the All Blacks in Rugby and Brazil in soccer

Princes of the Pigskin

KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 02/06/2017 22:45:17    1993755

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If people were to name the 15, 20, 30, 50 greatest footballers to ever grace the game, how many would be from Kerry?

If people were to name the greatest teams that ever played the sport, again how many would be from Kerry?

That's why we have 37 All-Irelands - geography be dammed!

TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 02/06/2017 23:30:02    1993766

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Replying To Forpucksake:  "Oh come on, that's ridiculous. Are you seriously saying that is why Kerry have the most all Irelands."
Yes puck that is exactly Wat we are saying actually

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 03/06/2017 00:10:44    1993777

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Replying To Mobot:  "Think you've missed TRS's stuff point completely there about Kerry having to play Donegal in Ballybofey in championship. He wasn't talking about a league game in January/Feb when no team is anywhere near their peak levels he was talking about a championship game in May when Kerry would need to be at a level they usually don't have to be at until july/august and if they beat Donegal in that game they would possibly have to play Tyrone or Monaghan in an Ulster QF. When is the last time Kerry had to play 2 division 1 teams before reaching a Munter final. I'm not saying it always happens in Ulster but it does happen."
We beat ye in Tralee the year before when ye came to fight we beat ye in the allireland final the year before that mobot when ye had Jim mcguinness.

Look I'm not trying to cause a fight but football is what we do, ya a team will come along now and again with something new and we'll struggle but the one thing we've shown over 135 years is we'll adapt and overcome .

You don't win 37 allirelands 20 leagues and 79 Munster championships if you're not brilliant and we are Kerry, we are the kingdom.

I always try to be humble and play down our chances as I don't want to be arrogant but do you know what ! Feck it I'm going to embrace it and say we are the best there is the best there was and best that will ever be.

Now what do ye think of that?

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/06/2017 01:38:20    1993790

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Replying To Liamwalkinstown:  "Yes puck that is exactly Wat we are saying actually"
Kind of like saying that Dublin have only won their last 4 All Ireland's to the unequal financial distribution (financial doping) and having the extra added advantage of having most of their games at the home Croke Park (Parnell Park doesn't exist come championship and never needs to be developed as it won't be used, adding even more financial weight for Dubs). And one wonders why the other teams in Leinster can't compete anymore when one team is clearly favoured .

So there you have it... Financial doping and almost every game at home has made an easy path for Dublin to AI .

Firinne (Laois) - Posts: 59 - 03/06/2017 08:03:49    1993812

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Look,being totally honest here, there is no doubt that both Connaught and Ulster have not been huge competition for the powers in Leinster and Munster over a good portion of the years between 1960 and 2000. The troubles essentially would have meant that if Kerry were in Ulster they would not have nearly as many titles.The same would go for any of the other main players also of course.That's just the truth of it.The bottom line is Leinster and Munster had it between them for long periods and have benefited no doubt.I'd also add that the present set up is a poor balance and really needs looking at.That's just my two cents.

catch22 (USA) - Posts: 2148 - 03/06/2017 08:20:23    1993816

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Replying To KingdomBoy1:  "We beat ye in Tralee the year before when ye came to fight we beat ye in the allireland final the year before that mobot when ye had Jim mcguinness.

Look I'm not trying to cause a fight but football is what we do, ya a team will come along now and again with something new and we'll struggle but the one thing we've shown over 135 years is we'll adapt and overcome .

You don't win 37 allirelands 20 leagues and 79 Munster championships if you're not brilliant and we are Kerry, we are the kingdom.

I always try to be humble and play down our chances as I don't want to be arrogant but do you know what ! Feck it I'm going to embrace it and say we are the best there is the best there was and best that will ever be.

Now what do ye think of that?"
Ye're crap at hurling though:)

skillet (Limerick) - Posts: 1065 - 03/06/2017 09:53:19    1993830

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Since the change in 2001 the all-Ireland has been more competitive and Kerry have still won 5 all-irelands but 6 other teams have also won and teams like Meath, Down & mayo made the finals. I prefer this era and think more changes have to be made.

Byanthon (Tyrone) - Posts: 1780 - 03/06/2017 10:03:10    1993833

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Cringy posts from a few in the South West.

Hard to have a proper debate .

It's like they need to be told they are great all the time -that is actually what's happening here.

Kerry have produced the best players to ever grace the game .

Kerry have the best tradition .

Kerry do however have easier routes to All- Irelands . Not always but certainly in the past 30 years .

The insecurity from 1 or 2 posters in tough to take .

They will be saying next their beaches are nicer than Donegal's .

TheRightStuff (Donegal) - Posts: 1688 - 03/06/2017 10:07:55    1993834

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There are no provinces in the national league. Everybody plays each other once. It is the secondary competition and the better teams are not going full tilt at it. Most teams have used it historically to blood players also so may not be at full strength. We cannot sift through every result and every game and objectively say how hard a team was trying or how 'strong' they were on the day.

Let us look back over the competition in its entirety (not one game or one year which is purely anecdotal) and make some broad assumptions.

The first is that despite the competition not being priority, teams are trying to win their matches (that is they are not deliberately trying to lose).

Teams have broadly prepared to the same level as their opponents (which has obviously varied a lot over time).

Teams have had similar number of home and away games over the entirety of the competition.

If you can agree on those, then you can agree that, despite it not being the priority for counties (I repeat for emphasis), it is the most even and fair Gaelic football competition.

Looking at the role of honor of the league (bear in mind it started much later than the championship) and it mirrors the role of honor for the championship. Especially for counties such as Kerry, Dublin, Galway, Meath, Cork and Down who occupy similar, but not exactly in all cases, positions. Mayo are the exception.

Read into that what you like. It is not an argument against the system being unfair. The system is undoubtedly unfair. It is unfair in terms of numbers. There are groups of 6,6,9,11 instead of 4 groups of 8. Of course it is unfair.

The initial article was written about Kerry. It could easily have been written about Carlow. Carlow have won a game this year. Dublin will hammer them tonight and they will go into the qualifiers. They will enter the qualifier in the same round as Limerick (for example) who did not win any game. They will be the same distance away from an All Ireland. Is that fair? Perhaps it is Limerick that are being harshly treated here. Leinster greater numbers guaranteed that at least one division 4 team would win a game and therefore get an extra game (Carlow v Wexford). Is that fair on Limerick?

Either way, the fact that we are having this debate and many more like it suggests that change will come. It will be slow in the Gaa.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 03/06/2017 10:18:13    1993839

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Replying To Liamwalkinstown:  "Yes puck that is exactly Wat we are saying actually"
Ha, you're good entertainment I'll give you that. What if I said to you Dublin should have by far the most all Irelands, because of your vastly superior population. It's not even an argument I'd consider debating.

You know it might just be down to the crazy notion that it's the quality of the players and the coaching staff that win you championships.

Forpucksake (UK) - Posts: 130 - 03/06/2017 10:21:23    1993840

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Replying To Firinne:  "Kind of like saying that Dublin have only won their last 4 All Ireland's to the unequal financial distribution (financial doping) and having the extra added advantage of having most of their games at the home Croke Park (Parnell Park doesn't exist come championship and never needs to be developed as it won't be used, adding even more financial weight for Dubs). And one wonders why the other teams in Leinster can't compete anymore when one team is clearly favoured .

So there you have it... Financial doping and almost every game at home has made an easy path for Dublin to AI ."
That's it. Nothing at all to do with them investing smartly in underage development, having a well organised network of voluntary coaches and helpers. The fact that they have some class skilful hungry players, the best manager and the best team is just a coincidence. It's all down to the money. Sure we should all stay at home this summer, like Donegal in 2012 and Kerry in 2014.

GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7360 - 03/06/2017 10:24:32    1993841

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Yeah having one foot in a semifinal for 116 years isn't an advantage at all.. sure. All that winning didn't breed generations of kids that wanted in on that, producing many football families generation after generation with only football on their minds.

Winning breeds winning

I'm seeing that culture change in Dublin now, I've never seen the amount of kids being sent out to play GAA by their parents, Dub jerseys everywhere, it's become very attractive for parents and it's a game changer.

Kerry have had a golden ticket and easy access to semifinals but to their credit they have brilliantly taken full advantage

Dublin have the 2nd most AI titles but Leinster has been far more competitive over the decades and I've no doubt that Dublin would have 30+ with the geographical advantage that Kerry have enjoyed, we're not far off that amount as it is.. playing Clare,Tipp, Waterford year after year to be in a semifinal!

We'd def have a few more titles alright

It's only since tactics and sports science have come to the front that Kerrys obvious geographical advantage has somewhat diminished and there are now teams battling back against a 116 year old advantage

No doubt Kerry have produced many great players but that's been bolstered by having it handy in Munster for a long time, kids wanted in and football became a massive part of their culture and lifestyle and on it goes

Munster is a hurling first province and Kerry only had the odd decent Cork side to beat.

Of course they've had it handy but they took advantage of their obvious advantageous so fair play to them!

But it's simply deluded to deny that advantage, but coming from certain posters that doesn't surprise me.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 03/06/2017 10:33:11    1993843

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Jimbob's post above makes a number of good points.

Kerry's AI series pedigree speaks for itself. They remain the benchmark.
Munster's championship though has been an embarrassment.
Anyone mind the year Kerry got parachuted straight into the provincial final ?

Bring on equality.

Knoxboya (Monaghan) - Posts: 358 - 03/06/2017 11:50:21    1993863

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Yeah having one foot in a semifinal for 116 years isn't an advantage at all.. sure. All that winning didn't breed generations of kids that wanted in on that, producing many football families generation after generation with only football on their minds.

Winning breeds winning

I'm seeing that culture change in Dublin now, I've never seen the amount of kids being sent out to play GAA by their parents, Dub jerseys everywhere, it's become very attractive for parents and it's a game changer.

Kerry have had a golden ticket and easy access to semifinals but to their credit they have brilliantly taken full advantage

Dublin have the 2nd most AI titles but Leinster has been far more competitive over the decades and I've no doubt that Dublin would have 30+ with the geographical advantage that Kerry have enjoyed, we're not far off that amount as it is.. playing Clare,Tipp, Waterford year after year to be in a semifinal!

We'd def have a few more titles alright

It's only since tactics and sports science have come to the front that Kerrys obvious geographical advantage has somewhat diminished and there are now teams battling back against a 116 year old advantage

No doubt Kerry have produced many great players but that's been bolstered by having it handy in Munster for a long time, kids wanted in and football became a massive part of their culture and lifestyle and on it goes

Munster is a hurling first province and Kerry only had the odd decent Cork side to beat.

Of course they've had it handy but they took advantage of their obvious advantageous so fair play to them!

But it's simply deluded to deny that advantage, but coming from certain posters that doesn't surprise me."
Can you explain why we have away more leagues than Dublin and the rest of the country so?

And we don't even take that competition seriously.

That's 20 league titles to us the nearest to us is Dublin with only 12 who go all out to win it every year.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/06/2017 11:58:57    1993868

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Replying To TheHermit:  "If people were to name the 15, 20, 30, 50 greatest footballers to ever grace the game, how many would be from Kerry?

If people were to name the greatest teams that ever played the sport, again how many would be from Kerry?

That's why we have 37 All-Irelands - geography be dammed!"
The problem with that comment mate, is you have to say it, simply put if that is true, you shouldn't need to.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 03/06/2017 12:03:09    1993869

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Replying To skillet:  "Ye're crap at hurling though:)"
Il give you that skillet :-) but we're working it.

KingdomBoy1 (Kerry) - Posts: 14092 - 03/06/2017 12:13:50    1993875

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