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Blue Print To Beat The Blues

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Replying To superbluedub:  "Well other teams need to target something else so , its not working this weakness thing you speak off , 4 all Irelands in 6 years , 4 leagues in a row !!"
He cost ye 7 points within a couple of minutes from putting pressure on him. Kerry weren't good enough to hold on to their lead but that doesn't mean it didn't work.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 20:44:19    1972525

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To be fair to Kerry and the kick out strategy, Dublin have adopted something similar since, if Cluxton is prone to a wobble imagine what may happen to mere mortals.

The Mayo goalkeeping fiasco in the finals last year being a case in point.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2017 20:53:25    1972528

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "He cost ye 7 points within a couple of minutes from putting pressure on him. Kerry weren't good enough to hold on to their lead but that doesn't mean it didn't work."
At the end of the day it didn't work , yea lost end off .

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 28/03/2017 21:27:46    1972542

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Replying To superbluedub:  "At the end of the day it didn't work , yea lost end off ."
Sorry but it absolutely did work. We went in at half time up thanks to cluxton. Teams would be mad not to target his kickouts again as there is always a mistake in him if you press up.

Kerry couldn't hold on but as I said that's a separate matter.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 21:35:29    1972545

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Dublin are well able to cause plenty of trouble on their opponents kick outs too, and it's a big part of their success.

Dublin cleaned out Kerry in Tralee to go into the lead after coming from 4 behind playing into a gale, cleaned out Kerry in the 2016 semifinal, until a blip, but then cleaned out Kerry again in 2nd half, winning that half 13-6.

So squeeze all you want, because we'll squeeze the life out of you down the other end, no trouble.

jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 28/03/2017 21:42:20    1972548

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Replying To jimbodub:  "Dublin are well able to cause plenty of trouble on their opponents kick outs too, and it's a big part of their success.

Dublin cleaned out Kerry in Tralee to go into the lead after coming from 4 behind playing into a gale, cleaned out Kerry in the 2016 semifinal, until a blip, but then cleaned out Kerry again in 2nd half, winning that half 13-6.

So squeeze all you want, because we'll squeeze the life out of you down the other end, no trouble."
No team could achieve what Dublin have without being able to win kick outs. That's not what we were debating but fair enough.

I don't agree Kerry got cleaned at midfield in either of those games but it must be nice to have selective memory to back up what you are saying. If you had said 2015 I'd agree with you

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 21:57:00    1972560

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Sorry but it absolutely did work. We went in at half time up thanks to cluxton. Teams would be mad not to target his kickouts again as there is always a mistake in him if you press up.

Kerry couldn't hold on but as I said that's a separate matter."
Every keeper has faults , including cluxton , pushing up on him might get yea ahead at half time
but its whos winning at the final whistle is what counts.

superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 28/03/2017 22:00:53    1972563

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Sorry but it absolutely did work. We went in at half time up thanks to cluxton. Teams would be mad not to target his kickouts again as there is always a mistake in him if you press up.

Kerry couldn't hold on but as I said that's a separate matter."
Do you think it will work twice mate, or has the trap been sprung?

I mean it would be foolish and arrogant not to learn from the expierence and recognise the ploy. His kick out performnce in the finals was one of the most varied and successful I've seen from him and he has been flawless really since, despite some concerns from some fellow Dubs.

I've watched Cluxton for more years then this successful period, he is the best 9 out of 10 times, he has that one game in him where he can be prone to rushes of blood to the head, even red cards in his earlier years.

The Kerry game I think was the exception as opposed to the rule really, I'm not sure the joy you got out of it should be planned as a consistent tactic to rely on.

I still maintain one of the goals was a "ghost goal" and didn't cross the line anyway, but that would only annoy us if we had lost. :)

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2017 22:01:29    1972564

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Replying To TheUsername:  "Do you think it will work twice mate, or has the trap been sprung?

I mean it would be foolish and arrogant not to learn from the expierence and recognise the ploy. His kick out performnce in the finals was one of the most varied and successful I've seen from him and he has been flawless really since, despite some concerns from some fellow Dubs.

I've watched Cluxton for more years then this successful period, he is the best 9 out of 10 times, he has that one game in him where he can be prone to rushes of blood to the head, even red cards in his earlier years.

The Kerry game I think was the exception as opposed to the rule really, I'm not sure the joy you got out of it should be planned as a consistent tactic to rely on.

I still maintain one of the goals was a "ghost goal" and didn't cross the line anyway, but that would only annoy us if we had lost. :)"
Yeah I'm on record above as saying he is the best of all time and I'm not criticising him at all. I'd love to have him in a Kerry jersey.

We're very unlikely to ever see the kind of impact that we saw in the semi ever again but I think disrupting his kickouts disrupts Dublin generally so it's worth doing when you can.

Our biggest issue against Dublin though is discipline. Rock hit 0-9 the last night and at least the same again in last years semi final. We simply can't afford to give away that many frees and ever hope to beat this current Dublin team. If you run at our backs you're guaranteed a free. I think if Fitzmaurice was going to sort it he'd have it done by now so I'm not hopeful for this year.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 22:22:21    1972570

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Yeah I'm on record above as saying he is the best of all time and I'm not criticising him at all. I'd love to have him in a Kerry jersey.

We're very unlikely to ever see the kind of impact that we saw in the semi ever again but I think disrupting his kickouts disrupts Dublin generally so it's worth doing when you can.

Our biggest issue against Dublin though is discipline. Rock hit 0-9 the last night and at least the same again in last years semi final. We simply can't afford to give away that many frees and ever hope to beat this current Dublin team. If you run at our backs you're guaranteed a free. I think if Fitzmaurice was going to sort it he'd have it done by now so I'm not hopeful for this year."
The disruption ploy and stoping momentum is a valid one mate, it has the advantage of breaking Dublin in the flow of the game. Brilliant team as they were one thing the Kerry team of the 00s did very well was foul in the right places, were it was difficult for a free taker to point, they were also brilliant at holding procession and dictating the pace of the play, controlled, high or to shut down/close out the game. The current lads should watch those old games, it was a skill in its self that teams game management. I do feel this Kerry team have more to offer then this campaigns showing and it will be there to see come the warmer months.

If I was to pick a ploy to beat Dublin, it would be what Tyrone do, controlled aggressive tackling and swarming. As another poster mentioned I fear Tyrone the most and see them as a obstacle for us to overcome. There style of play is something we have struggled with, Mayo did something very similar in the first final last year. If a team can calibrate it right by outscoring Dublin then that would be my approach to beating Dublin. Could well happen, through an early goal, penalty or just plain old fashioned being caught cold.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2017 22:50:33    1972582

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Replying To TheUsername:  "The disruption ploy and stoping momentum is a valid one mate, it has the advantage of breaking Dublin in the flow of the game. Brilliant team as they were one thing the Kerry team of the 00s did very well was foul in the right places, were it was difficult for a free taker to point, they were also brilliant at holding procession and dictating the pace of the play, controlled, high or to shut down/close out the game. The current lads should watch those old games, it was a skill in its self that teams game management. I do feel this Kerry team have more to offer then this campaigns showing and it will be there to see come the warmer months.

If I was to pick a ploy to beat Dublin, it would be what Tyrone do, controlled aggressive tackling and swarming. As another poster mentioned I fear Tyrone the most and see them as a obstacle for us to overcome. There style of play is something we have struggled with, Mayo did something very similar in the first final last year. If a team can calibrate it right by outscoring Dublin then that would be my approach to beating Dublin. Could well happen, through an early goal, penalty or just plain old fashioned being caught cold."
Yes ye seem to struggle against that type of defending. In that type of game though Dublin have the firepower to pick off enough scores to win. Tyrone don't. They swarm the half back line and try to catch you on the break but are far too wasteful in front of the posts to beat Dublin IMO. You never know though.

I'd put mayo well ahead of them and probably Kerry too if we can get JOD fit and sort a few things out at the back.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 23:07:16    1972588

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If there was a simple blueprint to beat this dominant Dublin team, Teams would be doing it every week. The fact the run has now reached an unbelievable 36 games (league and championship, The_Fridge) only confirms that this well oiled machine is ticking over nicely and doesn't look like it needs a service just yet. There are hundreds of hours spent analyzing this Dublin team per year. Opposition management teams and players, Pundits in studios, Fans on forums like this one, Radio podcasts, Newspaper columnist's... Everyone talking about how you beat this side, and so far, there have been so many teams who have tried, a few who have gotten agonizingly close, and yet all have failed. The problem is 75% of the "blueprint" is actually out of the opposition teams control.

The thing to remember here is that every single team in any sport have a certain way of playing that suits their players. A way that makes them tick, A comfort zone if you like. If you play Dublin and allow them to play to their strengths, Then you are committing tactical suicide and you will have your arses handed to you on a plate. If teams for example want to play man on man, 15 v 15, Dublin will eat you up and swallow you whole. The difference between a good side and a great side though, is a team being able to adapt to situations and pull proverbial rabbits from a hat when things aren't going your way, And Dublin in many of their league games this season have done just that.

The not so groundbreaking secret then, and the place to start, Is to take Dublin out of their comfort zone. Everything good that Dublin do revolves around pace, power, control, momentum and playing their game on their terms, So you have to try and stop that. Jurgen Klopp said in his first press conference as Liverpool manager something along the lines of, "We are not going to go out and beat Barcelona playing at their level, it is impossible to go up to their level, What we must do is bring them down to our level, then we have a chance".

Nail on the head Jurgen, Opposition managers stand up and take note. Is it any coincidence when you look at 2017 so far, 3 teams have come close to beating us. Tyrone, Donegal and Kerry. All of those teams had one thing in common. They tried to get under our skins, Took us out of our comfort zone, And in the case of Monaghan who you can add to the list aswell, THEY took the momentum from us and didn't let us control the game on our terms. Throw Dublin a curveball. Be cute, Be dirty, Don't give them a minute to settle. Pressurize them. Even the best players hesitate and take a second longer in decision making under pressure. Try put a bit of doubt in their minds. That's step 1.

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 07/04/2017 11:22:18    1976814

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Step 1 is the easy part. Step 1 is the part that an opposition team has control over. And its why the blueprint to beat Dublin isn't a sure fire thing.

Everything else is out of their hands.

The mentality of the Dublin players for starters, and the mentality of the teams they play. Doesn't matter how much they are losing by, they wont be lacking in hunger. They seem to have this unquenchable thirst for winning, A confidence that comes with being champions, That never say die, never lie down and take it attitude is totally out of an oppositions control. This Dublin team don't do doubt. It doesn't matter what has gone before in the first 50-55 mins, if you aren't out of sight, Dublin will go for it, Then we will see how strong the opposition team are mentally, because when teams have gone ahead of Dublin..like Donegal, Kerry and most recently Monaghan, instead of kicking on, they see the finish line and they bottle it.

Then you have squad. When Dublin can still bring in 3 former players of the year in McCaffrey, MDMcA and BB, aswell as Paul Mannion and Diarmuid Connolly, That will give Dublin the edge over everyone if the game is tight late on. There aren't many if any teams who can bring on players of that caliber against tiring legs. You'll always fancy a moment of magic from players like that against tiring defenses, Their quality is from a different world.

But if you do somehow manage to stay with them, And they can bring on these superior subs to those the opposition can bring on, and if you can manage to stay with them fitness wise and you don't seem like youre going to buckle under the pressure then you need one more thing to beat them

you need a bit of luck...

waynoI (Dublin) - Posts: 13650 - 07/04/2017 11:22:25    1976816

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Replying To waynoI:  "Step 1 is the easy part. Step 1 is the part that an opposition team has control over. And its why the blueprint to beat Dublin isn't a sure fire thing.

Everything else is out of their hands.

The mentality of the Dublin players for starters, and the mentality of the teams they play. Doesn't matter how much they are losing by, they wont be lacking in hunger. They seem to have this unquenchable thirst for winning, A confidence that comes with being champions, That never say die, never lie down and take it attitude is totally out of an oppositions control. This Dublin team don't do doubt. It doesn't matter what has gone before in the first 50-55 mins, if you aren't out of sight, Dublin will go for it, Then we will see how strong the opposition team are mentally, because when teams have gone ahead of Dublin..like Donegal, Kerry and most recently Monaghan, instead of kicking on, they see the finish line and they bottle it.

Then you have squad. When Dublin can still bring in 3 former players of the year in McCaffrey, MDMcA and BB, aswell as Paul Mannion and Diarmuid Connolly, That will give Dublin the edge over everyone if the game is tight late on. There aren't many if any teams who can bring on players of that caliber against tiring legs. You'll always fancy a moment of magic from players like that against tiring defenses, Their quality is from a different world.

But if you do somehow manage to stay with them, And they can bring on these superior subs to those the opposition can bring on, and if you can manage to stay with them fitness wise and you don't seem like youre going to buckle under the pressure then you need one more thing to beat them

you need a bit of luck..."
When Dublin can still bring in 3 former players of the year in McCaffrey, MDMcA and BB, aswell as Paul Mannion and Diarmuid Connolly

Thats a bit of fake news tho Wayno when it kinda suggests these lads are subs chomping at the bit waiting to get their go on this team of supermen....if ya follow?

In truth come the heat of summer, the subs chomping at the bit waiting to get a go will more than likely not read McCaffrey, MDMA, BB, Mannion and DC.....more likely it will read Daly, Bastick, Costelloe, O'Gara and McHugh

Not really comparable

Fair?

(i think maybe the strength of our panel, especially our forwards is a LITTLE over played at times,)

Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 07/04/2017 12:56:04    1976852

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Replying To Liamwalkinstown:  " When Dublin can still bring in 3 former players of the year in McCaffrey, MDMcA and BB, aswell as Paul Mannion and Diarmuid Connolly

Thats a bit of fake news tho Wayno when it kinda suggests these lads are subs chomping at the bit waiting to get their go on this team of supermen....if ya follow?

In truth come the heat of summer, the subs chomping at the bit waiting to get a go will more than likely not read McCaffrey, MDMA, BB, Mannion and DC.....more likely it will read Daly, Bastick, Costelloe, O'Gara and McHugh

Not really comparable

Fair?

(i think maybe the strength of our panel, especially our forwards is a LITTLE over played at times,)"
When this team loses (and it will) it will be when its luck runs out, they do have a lot of it but it won't happen one day and the run will go when we all least expect it, but it will and it will this year.

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 07/04/2017 22:07:25    1977019

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The capital are beatable. A limited Kerry team of this decade and Mayo have pushed then close. Noone can or should take away from their success. It is a poor decade for the game nationally after Kerry and Tyrone dropped off their 00's standard. The big smokey blue juggernaut can only beat the opposition in front of them at the end of the day.

The top 4 in Division 2 this year were: Kildare, Galway, Meath and Cork. 4 counties who arguably would have been expected to have taken over the mantle from Kerry and Tyrone these last few years.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 08/04/2017 15:24:38    1977133

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Replying To legendzxix:  "The capital are beatable. A limited Kerry team of this decade and Mayo have pushed then close. Noone can or should take away from their success. It is a poor decade for the game nationally after Kerry and Tyrone dropped off their 00's standard. The big smokey blue juggernaut can only beat the opposition in front of them at the end of the day.

The top 4 in Division 2 this year were: Kildare, Galway, Meath and Cork. 4 counties who arguably would have been expected to have taken over the mantle from Kerry and Tyrone these last few years."
I think the challenge from rural Ireland won't come from Kerry mate, I would be concerned about the super 8 format and what that means for Kerry football, it really levels the playing feild and I can't see Kerry enjoying a period dominance ever again like Dublin are doing at the moment. Perhaps if they have a great team like the 80s again, but like your point that was a poor decade well until the late 80s for football.

I think the big challengers will be Galway, Meath and Kildare. Kerry will do well occasionally but I think their traditional pathway just could significantly more difficult and wouldn't be surprised to see Kerry fall away somewhat.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 08/04/2017 18:01:41    1977164

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Replying To TheUsername:  "I think the challenge from rural Ireland won't come from Kerry mate, I would be concerned about the super 8 format and what that means for Kerry football, it really levels the playing feild and I can't see Kerry enjoying a period dominance ever again like Dublin are doing at the moment. Perhaps if they have a great team like the 80s again, but like your point that was a poor decade well until the late 80s for football.

I think the big challengers will be Galway, Meath and Kildare. Kerry will do well occasionally but I think their traditional pathway just could significantly more difficult and wouldn't be surprised to see Kerry fall away somewhat."
Out of interest why would you say that? Kerry are producing some of the best young talent in the country at the moment and should in theory be able to adapt to any competition format with the right management setup.

Galway cork Meath and Kildare will all improve no doubt but they've a long way to go to overtake Kerry surely?

I would agree that it will be very difficult for any team to dominate in the future and that can only be a good thing.

GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 08/04/2017 20:37:02    1977213

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@ TheUsername - lol. Was that your breakfast?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7853 - 08/04/2017 21:16:43    1977228

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Replying To GeniusGerry:  "Out of interest why would you say that? Kerry are producing some of the best young talent in the country at the moment and should in theory be able to adapt to any competition format with the right management setup.

Galway cork Meath and Kildare will all improve no doubt but they've a long way to go to overtake Kerry surely?

I would agree that it will be very difficult for any team to dominate in the future and that can only be a good thing."
I agree mate looks like a very good set of young players coming through, I suppose that has to be tempered to an extent by the he fact that you never know for certain hoowww lads are going to transition from 18-21, but they look on course as the crow flies so I'm happy to work on the assumption.

Likely the point we won't agree on is historically I think the pathway to a semi final and in a more modern context quarterfinal through Munster has been almost effortless, certainly I think without it Kerry would have a lot less All Irelands. I'm not knocking here that's just my objective opinion, I mean I have even heard you lads talking about not having a competitive game until Aug and I don't think it's unreasonable for minds not to drift to a gameplan for Mayo. Undoubtedly Kerry have had a truly great generation during 70s and 80s that would likely always dominate. But if you take even the good tea m of the 00s they won all Ireland's the years they dodged Tyrone. 14 similalarily they dodged Dublin. I'm sure Kerry lads will wholly disagree with my opinion and I can understand that.

I think when it comes to Kerry the pathway is a hell of a lot more difficult and I think increased exposure for Kerry to other counties particularly Ulster will be difficult. I also think the game will develop to be about strong panels of 30 with increased fatiuqe, injury and cover for suspensions. I think the format will suit counties with a bigger population and depth like the ones I mention.

I'm not saying Kerry won't be competitive or win all Irelands but when I look at counties whose pathway will become more competive, who might struggle with depth and frequency of playing I think Kerry will be one of the hardest hit and I just don't see them dominating in periods as they did like the team of the 80s.

Best of luck today by the way lads and safe journey.

TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 09/04/2017 12:17:20    1977324

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