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Replying To Lockjaw: "By no means is any of the below easy or an exhaustive list but in order to beat the Dubs you must
- have 20 players (at least) in absolute peak condition. No room for passengers if you want to match the fitness and athleticism of Dublin. I think most Division 1 teams should be able for this.
- disrupt, disrupt and disrupt Cluxton's kickouts whenever possible. I'd go so far as to arrange for some of your own ball boys to be stationed behind his goal. Tell them not be so hasty throwing balls into him!
- Man mark Cian O'Sullivan. Stop him by fair means or foul from performing his sweeper role.
- Get ahead by maximising goal chances. We almost did them in the league by scoring 2 quick fire goals before HT. Then defend like bejesus, forcing them to shoot from improbable distances and angles. Sow seeds of doubt." In Fairness your right in what you say , and many do try to go with blue print , however I don't think you can defend the way that's needed and still compete on every kick out , no Dublin fan fears any team in a straight shoot out , going behind in the manner described by yourself and the calvary not having desired effect when being introduced will probably ultimately be our un-doing,
That said a lot has to fall right ie the perfect storm in order to win in way described
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 28/03/2017 14:04:03
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You need 2 teams to beat dublin over the course of the year. It is all about the panel now not the bare 20 players. Until teams get their panels up to that of dublin, you can talk tactics all day and try this and that, but if you dont have the options on the bench, then it is curtains.
Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 28/03/2017 14:05:48
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Replying To TheHermit: "I'll disagree there Liam, I think last August we could/possibly should have won only the fitness let us down in the last few minutes and we lacked a little class up front at that crucial time. Think Geaney being subbed, Gooch shooting into Cluxton's hands from an angle he would usually put over in his sleep etc.
Look at last Saturday week, yes Dublin got a result but Paul Murphy's kick to nowhere is the reason we did not win that one.
Anyway all I am saying is Kerry can rattle Dublin because, more than anyone, Kerry seem to be able to counter-act yer kick-outs. And I don't think it takes a genius to see Cluxton is still probably your most vital player. Even going back to the semi in 07 we have been able to rattle him and when he is taken out of his comfort zone like that, he starts making basic mistakes. He has done it our last two meetings, rushed kick-outs, balls being sent over the sideline etc.
It is, to use Churchill's old phrase, the soft belly of the crocodile.
If Kerry can get more youth and pace into their side, add a little more up front then we've had in the last year and replicate our strategy for the Dublin kick outs we still could have the beatings of them this summer if we cross paths.
Lots of could's and if's for that to pan out mind." Fair enough old stock, but if Cluxton is the soft belly, then we will be ok! :)
Best Dublin footballer of all time for me.
C'mere, whats the word on Gooch Hermit. Will he be back?
ps - your point re Geaney and Marc's sub is bang on, its like EF panicked, who knows what he was thinking. It was a moment of madness.
Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 28/03/2017 14:06:17
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The talk of rattling Cluxton misses the point entirely. Take Kerry last year, much was made about the 3 or so kick outs they won and capitalised on very well to give themselves a chance in the game. Same with Mayo in the final, they won a couple of kick outs as well the first day and there was all talk about how they'd him sussed out. All it did was give them footholds in the play at that point in time. It was irrelevant afterwards. For all Kerry's talk of rattling they failed to lay a glove on Cluxton's kick outs in the second half. They lost every single one. Same with Mayo. Win a couple and nowhere near the rest.
Cluxton's kick outs are very good and very important to Dublin but that doesn't mean that winning the odd one off him is a great achievement. He completely expects to hit one or two over the sideline, it's high risk, high reward. He goes for ones that others don't attempt, most of the time he nails them but sometimes he won't. That's always been the case as long as I've been watching him.
His kick outs mean that opposition managers are obsessing about Dublin's restarts and working on ways to counteract them. They pour in so much energy and time into winning the odd couple of kick outs. Therein lies it's power. They've less time to spend on other things which can only benefit the rest of Dublin's team.
MesAmis (Dublin) - Posts: 13709 - 28/03/2017 14:21:36
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "west, you wouldnt BELIEVE how many times we play a team with "no forwards" who all of a sudden they start shooting the lights out on the big stage!!
(ps, will be back your way easter, u still owe me a pint after last September buddy :) )" Good Stuff Liam lad keep our economy down here going!
Enjoy the break!
westkerry (Kerry) - Posts: 1250 - 28/03/2017 14:29:39
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Replying To realdub: "Listen to this Off The Ball podcast if you haven't already, it will tell you exactly what is going on in football today and the whole mindset of teams wanting to knock Dublin off their perch. It says Kerry were certainly the instigators down in Tralee and maybe this is the only way to go, worrying times for the game as a spectacle.
Billy Joe Padden and Mikey Quirke do the talking
http://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/Off_The_Ball/GAA_on_Off_The_Ball/184834/Time_to_stick_it_to_the_Dubs" Its refeshing to hear Michael Quirke call it the way it is j.But the game in Tralee just goes to show that Kerry do not have the footballers to go man to man with this Dublin outfit so they resort to every dirty trick in the book. The funny thing when Kerry were winning all those All Irelands everyone was telling us how wonderful they were and how the Gooch shold be protected by the ref from anyone who would dare put a hand on him.Now all you hear is how to stop the Dubs by any means possible fair or foul.
dubarra (Wicklow) - Posts: 541 - 28/03/2017 14:52:05
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "Fair enough old stock, but if Cluxton is the soft belly, then we will be ok! :)
Best Dublin footballer of all time for me.
C'mere, whats the word on Gooch Hermit. Will he be back?
ps - your point re Geaney and Marc's sub is bang on, its like EF panicked, who knows what he was thinking. It was a moment of madness." Well in fairness Churchill was referring to the invasion of Italy to knock out the Germans in 1943 when he made that remark, and the Italian campaign ended up being a hell of a slog compared with the invasion of France a year later!
Quiet as the grave on Gooch's plans.
I know Fitzy is anxious to have him involved but whether that's enough for Gooch to return for one last throw of the dice is anyone's guess. It would be great if he came back and managed to play a part in another Kerry All-Ireland but sport doesn't work like that most of the time.
We don't all get the Alan Brogan end to a career!
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 28/03/2017 15:07:48
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This is a great Dublin squad and one that will be remembered. On top of that, I think they play a very positive style of football and have done for years. But don't get up in all the media hype. It only takes one Championship defeat and the media will be calling it the end of an era. Somebody will topple them soon but that won't make them a lesser team.
Sindar (Roscommon) - Posts: 348 - 28/03/2017 15:08:45
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Replying To MesAmis: "The talk of rattling Cluxton misses the point entirely. Take Kerry last year, much was made about the 3 or so kick outs they won and capitalised on very well to give themselves a chance in the game. Same with Mayo in the final, they won a couple of kick outs as well the first day and there was all talk about how they'd him sussed out. All it did was give them footholds in the play at that point in time. It was irrelevant afterwards. For all Kerry's talk of rattling they failed to lay a glove on Cluxton's kick outs in the second half. They lost every single one. Same with Mayo. Win a couple and nowhere near the rest.
Cluxton's kick outs are very good and very important to Dublin but that doesn't mean that winning the odd one off him is a great achievement. He completely expects to hit one or two over the sideline, it's high risk, high reward. He goes for ones that others don't attempt, most of the time he nails them but sometimes he won't. That's always been the case as long as I've been watching him.
His kick outs mean that opposition managers are obsessing about Dublin's restarts and working on ways to counteract them. They pour in so much energy and time into winning the odd couple of kick outs. Therein lies it's power. They've less time to spend on other things which can only benefit the rest of Dublin's team." Agree with you there lad to an extent. Jim McGuinness admitted in his book that he spent hours watching Dublin matches to see if he could establish a pattern to Cluxton's kickouts. His conclusion? There was no pattern. Cluxton is so good that he was impossible to read. If the right movement is there out the filed he will invariably pick out the man.
But, if everyone out the field is tuned in and marking extra tightly it makes his job that wee bit harder. When you see him waving his arms around he can get a bit tetchy and I think this spreads to the Dublin players a bit too. Like you say, it's not the be all and end all to beating Dublin. But it is a good start.
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9136 - 28/03/2017 15:09:16
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Replying To dubarra: "Its refeshing to hear Michael Quirke call it the way it is j.But the game in Tralee just goes to show that Kerry do not have the footballers to go man to man with this Dublin outfit so they resort to every dirty trick in the book. The funny thing when Kerry were winning all those All Irelands everyone was telling us how wonderful they were and how the Gooch shold be protected by the ref from anyone who would dare put a hand on him.Now all you hear is how to stop the Dubs by any means possible fair or foul." We're the big bad boggie men alright, I'm amazed the angles of Dublin or Mayo, Donegal or Tyrone even contemplate crossing the white line to face our brutality on the pitch ;D
TheHermit (Kerry) - Posts: 6354 - 28/03/2017 15:10:11
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Replying To MesAmis: "The talk of rattling Cluxton misses the point entirely. Take Kerry last year, much was made about the 3 or so kick outs they won and capitalised on very well to give themselves a chance in the game. Same with Mayo in the final, they won a couple of kick outs as well the first day and there was all talk about how they'd him sussed out. All it did was give them footholds in the play at that point in time. It was irrelevant afterwards. For all Kerry's talk of rattling they failed to lay a glove on Cluxton's kick outs in the second half. They lost every single one. Same with Mayo. Win a couple and nowhere near the rest.
Cluxton's kick outs are very good and very important to Dublin but that doesn't mean that winning the odd one off him is a great achievement. He completely expects to hit one or two over the sideline, it's high risk, high reward. He goes for ones that others don't attempt, most of the time he nails them but sometimes he won't. That's always been the case as long as I've been watching him.
His kick outs mean that opposition managers are obsessing about Dublin's restarts and working on ways to counteract them. They pour in so much energy and time into winning the odd couple of kick outs. Therein lies it's power. They've less time to spend on other things which can only benefit the rest of Dublin's team." Kerry conceded the kick outs to him in that second half, they didn't compete for them and were happy to let him kick it to a Dublin back. They pushed up after Kerry frees and when they had enough forward to do so. you can't do it for an entire game or you'll be completely exhausted, which Kerry were in that second half. As usual we ran out of legs towards the end.
That said it was very lucrative when they did push up and Cluxton has a tendency towards costly errors when you pressure him. We have seen this time and again and I would be very surprised if the top teams don't target him again this summer. You can only do it in bursts as he will simply go long once he loses the first one or two.
I think lockjaw has hit most of the points there. I would also add that you need to vary the ball in and run at them whenever possible. Many teams struggle when you run directly at them and Dublin are no different.
Even then you need a bit of luck and most things to go your way. Looking at the contenders it's hard to see an obvious team to beat Dublin this summer. All of Mayo, Kerry, Tyrone and Donegal have flaws that make them vulnerable and it will take a large slice of luck or a serious Dublin injury crisis to swing it in their favour IMO.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 15:11:28
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Replying To TheHermit: "We're the big bad boggie men alright, I'm amazed the angles of Dublin or Mayo, Donegal or Tyrone even contemplate crossing the white line to face our brutality on the pitch ;D" Obtuse or acute angles?
GaaGaa78 (UK) - Posts: 285 - 28/03/2017 15:17:25
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Replying To MesAmis: "The talk of rattling Cluxton misses the point entirely. Take Kerry last year, much was made about the 3 or so kick outs they won and capitalised on very well to give themselves a chance in the game. Same with Mayo in the final, they won a couple of kick outs as well the first day and there was all talk about how they'd him sussed out. All it did was give them footholds in the play at that point in time. It was irrelevant afterwards. For all Kerry's talk of rattling they failed to lay a glove on Cluxton's kick outs in the second half. They lost every single one. Same with Mayo. Win a couple and nowhere near the rest.
Cluxton's kick outs are very good and very important to Dublin but that doesn't mean that winning the odd one off him is a great achievement. He completely expects to hit one or two over the sideline, it's high risk, high reward. He goes for ones that others don't attempt, most of the time he nails them but sometimes he won't. That's always been the case as long as I've been watching him.
His kick outs mean that opposition managers are obsessing about Dublin's restarts and working on ways to counteract them. They pour in so much energy and time into winning the odd couple of kick outs. Therein lies it's power. They've less time to spend on other things which can only benefit the rest of Dublin's team." I'd agree with a lot of this. The focus on kickouts is obviously due to their importance in kick starting quick attacks. I thought for the most part though, Kerry did a good job on them in the semi-final last year. It seemed like they had decided pre-match that they would push for certain periods, and concede for others. While I think a lot is made of "rattling" Cluxton, I think Kerry did a good job overall.
No more than ourselves in the league match I thought we did a pretty decent job on the Dublin kickout which was nice to see from our perspective. It's really impressive to see all the options that are given though, constant movement and I thought we did well to keep up with your boys.
The main point though I agree with, a lot is made out of a few kickouts hit out over the sideline. Just like Durcan in 2014, that kickout isn't really why we lost the entire match.
JoeSoap (Donegal) - Posts: 1432 - 28/03/2017 15:22:15
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Replying To TheHermit: "We're the big bad boggie men alright, I'm amazed the angles of Dublin or Mayo, Donegal or Tyrone even contemplate crossing the white line to face our brutality on the pitch ;D" Well in Fairness you are only copying the likes of Donegal Tyrone who have had some success with their negative tactics it definitely worked for Kerry in 2014 when you beat Donegal at their own game. Oh and I'm not having a go at just Kerry no team of Angeles ever won anything and that includes Dublin
dubarra (Wicklow) - Posts: 541 - 28/03/2017 15:35:04
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Replying To TheHermit: "I'll disagree there Liam, I think last August we could/possibly should have won only the fitness let us down in the last few minutes and we lacked a little class up front at that crucial time. Think Geaney being subbed, Gooch shooting into Cluxton's hands from an angle he would usually put over in his sleep etc.
Look at last Saturday week, yes Dublin got a result but Paul Murphy's kick to nowhere is the reason we did not win that one.
Anyway all I am saying is Kerry can rattle Dublin because, more than anyone, Kerry seem to be able to counter-act yer kick-outs. And I don't think it takes a genius to see Cluxton is still probably your most vital player. Even going back to the semi in 07 we have been able to rattle him and when he is taken out of his comfort zone like that, he starts making basic mistakes. He has done it our last two meetings, rushed kick-outs, balls being sent over the sideline etc.
It is, to use Churchill's old phrase, the soft belly of the crocodile.
If Kerry can get more youth and pace into their side, add a little more up front then we've had in the last year and replicate our strategy for the Dublin kick outs we still could have the beatings of them this summer if we cross paths.
Lots of could's and if's for that to pan out mind." Considering Kerry haven't beaten Dublin in the Championship in nearly a decade now, how would you rate their chances of beating them in the next decade?
greatpoint (USA) - Posts: 427 - 28/03/2017 16:08:24
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Also to add that extreme discipline in the tackle is required. Dean Rock has greatly improved his concentration and conversion rates.
In summary, there are a LOT of things teams need to do right. Even with that you'd probably still be looking at needing Dublin to be a bit below par. But they are definitely beatable. For the sake of competition the top teams HAVE to believe they can beat Dublin. Commit, Focus, Believe & Achieve etc etc
Lockjaw (Donegal) - Posts: 9136 - 28/03/2017 16:16:33
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Curios, if Kerry's tactic of pushing up on his kick outs is so effective that shits the pants every time and we go to pieces.....why don't ye do it for the 70 minutes???
Cluxton is SO good and SO consistent, that when he has a wobble, its totally over blown and treated as some seismic rattlement!
David Clarke won an all star last year and was heralded as the best keeper in the country despite numerous rattles of the kind that if it had been Stevo they would have been regarded as mini victories for our opponents!
I said it before and will say it again, Cluxtons greatness wont be fully appreciated until he has retired.
ps - anyone watching us in the league this year will see the man is back to his very best in the shot stopping dept, which in my eyes was the one area of his game had maybe deteriorated in recent years.
The legend is back!
Liamwalkinstown (Dublin) - Posts: 8166 - 28/03/2017 16:25:49
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Replying To Liamwalkinstown: "Curios, if Kerry's tactic of pushing up on his kick outs is so effective that shits the pants every time and we go to pieces.....why don't ye do it for the 70 minutes???
Cluxton is SO good and SO consistent, that when he has a wobble, its totally over blown and treated as some seismic rattlement!
David Clarke won an all star last year and was heralded as the best keeper in the country despite numerous rattles of the kind that if it had been Stevo they would have been regarded as mini victories for our opponents!
I said it before and will say it again, Cluxtons greatness wont be fully appreciated until he has retired.
ps - anyone watching us in the league this year will see the man is back to his very best in the shot stopping dept, which in my eyes was the one area of his game had maybe deteriorated in recent years.
The legend is back!" You can't do it for 70 minutes as it takes too much effort and he will just go long to counter what you are doing. You pick your moments. That was more than a wobble in last years semi. He damn near cost ye the game but his teammates dug him out.
I do agree he is the best of all time and will be remembered as such. There is a weakness there though and I'd imagine most teams will be targeting it as part of their gameplan at the business end of the championship as they have in the past.
GeniusGerry (Kerry) - Posts: 2105 - 28/03/2017 18:16:17
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Kerry with players coming through from the last 3 minor wining teams
Should be the team to break the Dubs domination but may take 2/3 years
RAHKILL (Westmeath) - Posts: 395 - 28/03/2017 19:28:27
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Replying To GeniusGerry: "You can't do it for 70 minutes as it takes too much effort and he will just go long to counter what you are doing. You pick your moments. That was more than a wobble in last years semi. He damn near cost ye the game but his teammates dug him out.
I do agree he is the best of all time and will be remembered as such. There is a weakness there though and I'd imagine most teams will be targeting it as part of their gameplan at the business end of the championship as they have in the past." Well other teams need to target something else so , its not working this weakness thing you speak off , 4 all Irelands in 6 years , 4 leagues in a row !!
superbluedub (Dublin) - Posts: 2837 - 28/03/2017 20:14:43
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