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Club championships 2017

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Replying To Skelling: "cavanblueman, I'm not sure what it is you're directing at me as you seem to be making a lot of points. What I said is very clear; compared to the old system a team leaving the championship at every stage will leave it earlier in the calendar under the new system. I'm not advocating the Super 8. I'm just point out the inaccuracy of what some are saying about it." The Super 8 is a money spinner, plain and simple...Whats difference does its make moving the All-Ireland Final back to August, sure its only benefits two teams. What happens if Cavan reach the Super 8, given the County Boards history of fixtures making, there'll be no club football in Cavan in June or July. As it stands, the Ulster Championship game is 10 weeks away, how many league fixtures will be played between now and then, and if Cavan progress, club fixtures will be put on hold again. In essence, GAA HQ are the only ones that will benefit from the Super 8, and once again the club footballer will be forgotten about! cavanblueman (Cavan) - Posts: 636 - 28/03/2017 15:51:51 1972326 Link
Replying To cavanblueman: "The Super 8 is a money spinner, plain and simple...Whats difference does its make moving the All-Ireland Final back to August, sure its only benefits two teams. What happens if Cavan reach the Super 8, given the County Boards history of fixtures making, there'll be no club football in Cavan in June or July. As it stands, the Ulster Championship game is 10 weeks away, how many league fixtures will be played between now and then, and if Cavan progress, club fixtures will be put on hold again. In essence, GAA HQ are the only ones that will benefit from the Super 8, and once again the club footballer will be forgotten about!" He may be forgotten about, but his case had not been made any worse. That's all I'm saying. Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 28/03/2017 16:30:38 1972364 Link
Replying To cavanblueman: "The Super 8 is a money spinner, plain and simple...Whats difference does its make moving the All-Ireland Final back to August, sure its only benefits two teams. What happens if Cavan reach the Super 8, given the County Boards history of fixtures making, there'll be no club football in Cavan in June or July. As it stands, the Ulster Championship game is 10 weeks away, how many league fixtures will be played between now and then, and if Cavan progress, club fixtures will be put on hold again. In essence, GAA HQ are the only ones that will benefit from the Super 8, and once again the club footballer will be forgotten about!" GAA HQ and Sky Sports. Let's see how many Super 8 games Sky get when the Premier League is in the off-season. Nice little filler for them that costs little compared to other sports. As Brolly said the trouble with GAA HQ is that there is no-one there with a vision of what the GAA will be in 5 years so they're constantly having to find extra revenue when crowds go down as they have been for the past ten years i.e. the Sky deal and now the Super 8 (sounds like a Sky name) which appeared to be against the principles of the GAA. What's the liklihood that it'll be announced at the last minute how many games Sky will get and we'll be told it's too late to do anything about. Remember how the GAA played the victim when RTE hosted a show of GAA members and allowed them to voice their views on the deal. Duffy has been there for 8 or 9 years now and very little has changed. The Administration is good but there is nothing to protect the games into the future, nothing to support the club game. The elephant in the room is the lobsided nature of the provincial championships and until this is tackled there'll be no support for the so-called 'weaker' counties or for clubs. opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 28/03/2017 17:31:33 1972415 Link
Replying To opa01: "GAA HQ and Sky Sports. Let's see how many Super 8 games Sky get when the Premier League is in the off-season. Nice little filler for them that costs little compared to other sports. As Brolly said the trouble with GAA HQ is that there is no-one there with a vision of what the GAA will be in 5 years so they're constantly having to find extra revenue when crowds go down as they have been for the past ten years i.e. the Sky deal and now the Super 8 (sounds like a Sky name) which appeared to be against the principles of the GAA. What's the liklihood that it'll be announced at the last minute how many games Sky will get and we'll be told it's too late to do anything about. Remember how the GAA played the victim when RTE hosted a show of GAA members and allowed them to voice their views on the deal. Duffy has been there for 8 or 9 years now and very little has changed. The Administration is good but there is nothing to protect the games into the future, nothing to support the club game. The elephant in the room is the lobsided nature of the provincial championships and until this is tackled there'll be no support for the so-called 'weaker' counties or for clubs." I would hazard a guess that at least half if not all the super 8 games will be on SKY. An absolute disgrace. Of course this is all in the players hands. If players refuse to play there is nothing the GAA, SKy,Eir,RTe can do about it. In fact if I were the players I would demand payment or withdraw services. s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 28/03/2017 18:38:13 1972459 Link
opa01, does Brolly have a vision for the GAA in five years' time or is he just another in the endless list of people with any amount of problems and few answers. He wants a second-tiered championship which the players don't want. So what do we do when Joe's plan isn't the right one? This is the man that said that Cavan players weren't the first cousins of inter-county players a few years back. Yet he says his promotion of a second-tier championship isn't elitist. If there was someone with a five-year vision, how long would it take for that vision to get through congress in its entirety? More than five years I'd be willing to bet. The GAA didn't call it the Super 8 as far as I know, so yet it probably is media-driven, but not by Sky. I agree completely that the provincials are an issue. The first major hurdle was to condense the inter-county championship, which Duffy has been able to get through. No praise for this in the GAA world of course. What's to be done with the provincials when virtually none of the stakeholders want them changed, apart from Joe? Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 28/03/2017 20:19:42 1972510 Link
Replying To Skelling: "opa01, does Brolly have a vision for the GAA in five years' time or is he just another in the endless list of people with any amount of problems and few answers. He wants a second-tiered championship which the players don't want. So what do we do when Joe's plan isn't the right one? This is the man that said that Cavan players weren't the first cousins of inter-county players a few years back. Yet he says his promotion of a second-tier championship isn't elitist. If there was someone with a five-year vision, how long would it take for that vision to get through congress in its entirety? More than five years I'd be willing to bet. The GAA didn't call it the Super 8 as far as I know, so yet it probably is media-driven, but not by Sky. I agree completely that the provincials are an issue. The first major hurdle was to condense the inter-county championship, which Duffy has been able to get through. No praise for this in the GAA world of course. What's to be done with the provincials when virtually none of the stakeholders want them changed, apart from Joe?" I don't agree with everything Brolly says but there is a danger that we label everyone with a gripe as having the problem and no answer. You say the first major hurdle was to condense the inter-county championship which Duffy has been able to do - How?? They've added 8 games and removed replays. So we'll have no games in September which wasn't a problem except for 2 counties. The danger with the 'condensing' is that the GAA will become dependent on the Sky money and it will become entrenched. Sky is not known to be shy when making sporting organisations dependent on the revenue it provides. Duffy said that it was a democratic decision - "What's my reaction? 74 per cent to 26 - that's democracy" but when you dig a bit deeper - take Meath: "A few weeks ago Paraic Duffy came to Dunganny to talk to Meath club delegates about the Super 8 proposals. That night the club delegates voted in favour of backing the proposal. Surely the proper process should have been for delegates to bring what Paraic presented to them back to their clubs and for each club to discuss the proposal and send their delegate back to another meeting mandated as how to vote. Not for club delegates to vote using their personal opinion based on the presentation given by the Director General. If this happened in one county, how many other counties and delegates carried out their business in a similar manner? Also that night Mr. Duffy promised delegates that Croke Park would financially support the redevelopment of Pairc Tailteann. A nice sweetener to throw in…" Duffy then admitted on Newstalk he visited about 9 counties to discuss the proposals. If each county had approximately 3% of the vote and would have voted no without Duffy's sweeteners it would only have taken 3 counties to vote no to have turned the vote the opposite way. Is how GAA democracy works? Do you think the Provincial Championships could be altered if these kind of tactics were used? He also used the line "This has been debated for six months, eight months - every club in the country... You heard it all." I don't know of many clubs or players who have taken part in any debate. And "A significant proportion of this increase should be ring-fenced for development of our games in less successful counties" - should - Will this happen? opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 29/03/2017 21:14:20 1972937 Link
Replying To Skelling: "opa01, does Brolly have a vision for the GAA in five years' time or is he just another in the endless list of people with any amount of problems and few answers. He wants a second-tiered championship which the players don't want. So what do we do when Joe's plan isn't the right one? This is the man that said that Cavan players weren't the first cousins of inter-county players a few years back. Yet he says his promotion of a second-tier championship isn't elitist. If there was someone with a five-year vision, how long would it take for that vision to get through congress in its entirety? More than five years I'd be willing to bet. The GAA didn't call it the Super 8 as far as I know, so yet it probably is media-driven, but not by Sky. I agree completely that the provincials are an issue. The first major hurdle was to condense the inter-county championship, which Duffy has been able to get through. No praise for this in the GAA world of course. What's to be done with the provincials when virtually none of the stakeholders want them changed, apart from Joe?" If a proper revamp of the Championship were to happen the Provincial Championships would have to be separated from the AI series or counties would have to be moved to other provinces (like hurling) to even out the number of counties. But my preference is for 8 groups of 4 based on National League standings with every group having one team from each division. The Div 4 team could then have 3 home games in the group stage, Div 3 team 2 home games, Div 2 team 1 home game with the Div 1 team playing all group games away. The National League would then become important again and be a really good competition. Top 2 teams would qualify for the last 16 while bottom 2 teams would drop into second tier competition. The 2nd tier competition would need to have a level of importance with QF through to final being played in Croker. Last 16 games at a neutral venue. This way all counties are guaranteed 4 championship matches every year with at least two being winnable. Group games could be run over last two weeks in May and all of June. The last 16 through to final of both competitions played through July and August freeing up the rest of the year for the clubs. Top teams in each group to play second-placed teams from another group. This year you could have a group of Ross, Down, Tipp and W'Meath. All four teams would believe they have a realistic chance of qualifying in the top two. Most games would be competitive and would draw the crowds. There would be some mismatches but 'weaker' teams would have what they want - more Championship intensity games that would bring them up a level. opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 29/03/2017 21:15:01 1972938 Link
Replying To opa01: "If a proper revamp of the Championship were to happen the Provincial Championships would have to be separated from the AI series or counties would have to be moved to other provinces (like hurling) to even out the number of counties. But my preference is for 8 groups of 4 based on National League standings with every group having one team from each division. The Div 4 team could then have 3 home games in the group stage, Div 3 team 2 home games, Div 2 team 1 home game with the Div 1 team playing all group games away. The National League would then become important again and be a really good competition. Top 2 teams would qualify for the last 16 while bottom 2 teams would drop into second tier competition. The 2nd tier competition would need to have a level of importance with QF through to final being played in Croker. Last 16 games at a neutral venue. This way all counties are guaranteed 4 championship matches every year with at least two being winnable. Group games could be run over last two weeks in May and all of June. The last 16 through to final of both competitions played through July and August freeing up the rest of the year for the clubs. Top teams in each group to play second-placed teams from another group. This year you could have a group of Ross, Down, Tipp and W'Meath. All four teams would believe they have a realistic chance of qualifying in the top two. Most games would be competitive and would draw the crowds. There would be some mismatches but 'weaker' teams would have what they want - more Championship intensity games that would bring them up a level." You picked one group which would be mildly competitive. This structure would have so many hammerings in group stages. Even this way it won't really start till quarters like the champ league world cup etc..... Imagine what Dublin would do to a div 3 and div 4 team. doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 29/03/2017 22:03:59 1972963 Link
Replying To doratheexplorer: "You picked one group which would be mildly competitive. This structure would have so many hammerings in group stages. Even this way it won't really start till quarters like the champ league world cup etc..... Imagine what Dublin would do to a div 3 and div 4 team." opa01, Brolly has suggested answers but involves a second tier championship which nobody wants. There are loads of solutions but very difficult to get consensus on one. If people at least acknowledged that we might be save from the constant negativity over what has been done. With regards to condensing the championships, I'll be blue in the face saying this but 30 counties will exit the championship earlier in 2018 than they would do at the same stage in 2017. Therefore club championships can begin earlier in these counties. The other two will exit at the same time. You say that September was only a problem for two counties, but the provincials club championships, in theory, should be able to start earlier, all other things being equal as the clubs from the other counties won't have to wait for the winners for the All-Ireland finalists. I don't understand your point on how condensing the games would make the GAA more reliant on Sky money. There's also a lot of crying about the lack of democracy at play. I'm a non-playing club member with no major role in my club. I was interested in what was being proposed last year and then again when the document was made available to our secretary. I got it from him, read it and thought that overall (i.e. all three proposals, condensing the championship, no replays and the Super 8) it was an improvement. I actually didn't see the Super 8 as being either great nor terrible, but I was in favour of the other two. The GPA were aware of it, every secretary in the country got a copy of it, I made it my business to get a copy of it. It was on the GAA's website. Why didn't people read it and go their clubs with their objections? You may have a point on how county delegates handled it. Whose fault is that? I can't tell if future money will be ringfenced, that's just guesswork. As for your proposal, that's all fine. I've read dozens of them at this stage. Who would vote for it? Moving counties to other provinces, no chance I would say. Removing the provincials from the AI series devalues them and they become less relevant. Your proposal of one team from every division in a group is new to me but, with respect, I think it's awful. London, Carlow, Waterford all get to play at home against a team that will wipe the floor with them. Anyway, this post is long enough. One question. Forgetting what the new proposals haven't done, do you not see merit in what they have done? Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 29/03/2017 22:37:42 1972976 Link
Replying To doratheexplorer: "You picked one group which would be mildly competitive. This structure would have so many hammerings in group stages. Even this way it won't really start till quarters like the champ league world cup etc..... Imagine what Dublin would do to a div 3 and div 4 team." Very true. And one thing about Champions league formats that a lot of people always seem to over look is travel distances and local derbies. This advantage that provincial competitions have with generating interest in games and drawing big attendances shouldn't be underestimated. An open draw, while looking good on paper, could backfire in a big way. Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/03/2017 00:40:35 1972998 Link
Replying To doratheexplorer: "You picked one group which would be mildly competitive. This structure would have so many hammerings in group stages. Even this way it won't really start till quarters like the champ league world cup etc..... Imagine what Dublin would do to a div 3 and div 4 team." Ok I've picked a group that would be competitive. You've picked the other end of the scale. So Dublin would hammer all Div 3 & 4 teams - how is this different to the current Leinster Championship? How is Kerry hammering Div 3 & 4 teams different to the Munster Championship? The difference is the 'weaker' counties would get a guaranteed 4 championship games every year with some of them against teams close to their level. So it won't really start until the quarters - apart from Ulster nothing starts until the quarters now. Let's take the tables as they now stand and put all the top teams together etc: Dublin, Kildare, Louth, Westmeath Donegal, Galway, Armagh, Wexford Monaghan, Meath, Tipperary, Carlow Tyrone, Cork, Sligo, Limerick Mayo, Clare, Longford, Leitrim Kerry, Fermanagh, Antrim, Waterford Cavan, Down, Laois, Wicklow Roscommon, Derry, Offaly, London It would obviously be open draw but you can see there could be some very competitive groups. In this case for example Leitrim would have 3 competitive games plus at least a fourth if they either qualified for the last 16 or dropped into the 2nd tier rather than a defeat to Mayo, Roscommon or Galway followed by a defeat in the Qualifiers every year. In my humble opinion this can only help to bring the standard up in the 'weaker' counties. opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 30/03/2017 09:52:37 1973027 Link
Skelling (USA) - Posts:173 - 29/03/2017 22:37:42 One question. Forgetting what the new proposals haven't done, do you not see merit in what they have done? I see merit in removing replays. I see merit, for clubs, in bringing the AI Final forward. But I don't see merit in the 'Super 8'. Great if Cavan gets there - it will really help our players in giving them the experience of big games against top opposition. But I do think 6 of the 8 will be the same teams every year. The other 24 teams will be left with the scraps and won't improve. What I was thinking about with Brolly's statement on the lack of vision in the GAA is how you improve the standard across the board not just in the elite where it's very professional anyway. I think the statement that extra revenue should be ringfenced says a lot giving an opt out if this doesn't happen. And his point about short-termism in the need for revenue is very true. My belief is that Sky will get half the 'Super 8' games and will become more entrenched in the GAA. They are very good at wangling their way into teh heart of sporting organisations and making them dependent - we'll have to wait and see on that one. It's great that you were able to get all the information about the proposals. Jarlath Burns explained the same in his club where everything was debated and voted on. But did County delegates follow the wishes of club members? From the Meath example clearly not. If the Meath tactics were used in a proposal to remove the provincial championship from the AI series do you think it would have a chance to succeed? 70% of club players voted against the latest proposals but they still went through with a 74% share of the delegates votes. opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 30/03/2017 10:16:42 1973035 Link
Replying To Skelling: "opa01, Brolly has suggested answers but involves a second tier championship which nobody wants. There are loads of solutions but very difficult to get consensus on one. If people at least acknowledged that we might be save from the constant negativity over what has been done. With regards to condensing the championships, I'll be blue in the face saying this but 30 counties will exit the championship earlier in 2018 than they would do at the same stage in 2017. Therefore club championships can begin earlier in these counties. The other two will exit at the same time. You say that September was only a problem for two counties, but the provincials club championships, in theory, should be able to start earlier, all other things being equal as the clubs from the other counties won't have to wait for the winners for the All-Ireland finalists. I don't understand your point on how condensing the games would make the GAA more reliant on Sky money. There's also a lot of crying about the lack of democracy at play. I'm a non-playing club member with no major role in my club. I was interested in what was being proposed last year and then again when the document was made available to our secretary. I got it from him, read it and thought that overall (i.e. all three proposals, condensing the championship, no replays and the Super 8) it was an improvement. I actually didn't see the Super 8 as being either great nor terrible, but I was in favour of the other two. The GPA were aware of it, every secretary in the country got a copy of it, I made it my business to get a copy of it. It was on the GAA's website. Why didn't people read it and go their clubs with their objections? You may have a point on how county delegates handled it. Whose fault is that? I can't tell if future money will be ringfenced, that's just guesswork. As for your proposal, that's all fine. I've read dozens of them at this stage. Who would vote for it? Moving counties to other provinces, no chance I would say. Removing the provincials from the AI series devalues them and they become less relevant. Your proposal of one team from every division in a group is new to me but, with respect, I think it's awful. London, Carlow, Waterford all get to play at home against a team that will wipe the floor with them. Anyway, this post is long enough. One question. Forgetting what the new proposals haven't done, do you not see merit in what they have done?" The only merits for the GAA is more money. What was wrong with the quarters the way they were? All that needed to be done was condense the provincials and run the quarters from early July . In this new system say Cavan were in a group with Dublin and Donegal and cork. We lose the first 2 games to Dublin and Cork. Who is going to travel to Cork for the last game which is a complete dead rubber game?? Total money making racket. They are scraping replays but adding 8 more games Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 30/03/2017 10:35:55 1973044 Link
The provincial winners were the only county that didn't get a second chance. Now they do. This issue was highlighted to Duffy by the likes of Mickey Harte. Agree with it or not, it was a fact that is now remedied. Kerry, Dublin and, to a lesser extent, Mayo normally coast through the All-Ireland series. Now they have a harder route to the semi-finals. And yes, bigger games means bigger crowds and more money. The neutral GAA fan will get to see more better quality games in July/August. Provincial grounds will get to host a big name at the business end of the championship. Dead rubbers are most definitely a potential problem. Almost as problematic as Dublin hammering Laois/Longford/Meath under the current system. You know what they say about a broken clock, so well done on that one. Skelling (USA) - Posts: 289 - 30/03/2017 11:07:41 1973059 Link
Replying To Awwwwnow: "The only merits for the GAA is more money. What was wrong with the quarters the way they were? All that needed to be done was condense the provincials and run the quarters from early July . In this new system say Cavan were in a group with Dublin and Donegal and cork. We lose the first 2 games to Dublin and Cork. Who is going to travel to Cork for the last game which is a complete dead rubber game?? Total money making racket. They are scraping replays but adding 8 more games" I think it's worse than that. It's more money for the GAA in the short-term. What's been clear for a number of years now is that the numbers attending games is declining year-on-year with some blips. That trend is going to continue. Squeezing more money out of the 'Super 8' will interrupt but not stop the trend and most of this money will be sucked up by the new agreement with the GPA. The Sky money will make up for some of this again in the short-term but if Sky's share of viewers does not rise dramatically that will also decline. In the meantime the interest will decline in more counties where there is no hope of reaching the 'Super 8' and who continue to receive 2 hammerings per year before their players make their way to the US for the summer. opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 503 - 30/03/2017 12:05:21 1973089 Link
Replying To Awwwwnow: "The only merits for the GAA is more money. What was wrong with the quarters the way they were? All that needed to be done was condense the provincials and run the quarters from early July . In this new system say Cavan were in a group with Dublin and Donegal and cork. We lose the first 2 games to Dublin and Cork. Who is going to travel to Cork for the last game which is a complete dead rubber game?? Total money making racket. They are scraping replays but adding 8 more games" I would tend to agree with all of that. They've condensed the Championship but added more games. Skelling makes a good point regarding the Provincial winners but an easy fix might have been that the 4 Provincial winners play each other for 2 slots in the AI semi, and the 2 losers play 2 back door winners for the final 2 AI semi final slots. Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/03/2017 13:38:33 1973144 Link
Replying To Skelling: "The provincial winners were the only county that didn't get a second chance. Now they do. This issue was highlighted to Duffy by the likes of Mickey Harte. Agree with it or not, it was a fact that is now remedied. Kerry, Dublin and, to a lesser extent, Mayo normally coast through the All-Ireland series. Now they have a harder route to the semi-finals. And yes, bigger games means bigger crowds and more money. The neutral GAA fan will get to see more better quality games in July/August. Provincial grounds will get to host a big name at the business end of the championship. Dead rubbers are most definitely a potential problem. Almost as problematic as Dublin hammering Laois/Longford/Meath under the current system. You know what they say about a broken clock, so well done on that one." Agree but getting hammered under the present system is totally different . It's like the year we played Kerry in the quarters. Ok we were never going to win but we believed by some chance wouldn't it be great if we caused an upset. Under the new system we could be playing Kerry knowing we are already out having maybe lost our first 2 games.. so where's the craic in that? Especially if we have to travel away for such a dead rubber game? Would you travel to Killarney knowing we were already out? Would the players? Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 30/03/2017 14:36:07 1973180 Link
Is this not about Club Championship anyway??? Great to see club league football back next week and junior b having started. doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 30/03/2017 17:44:12 1973260 Link
Championship draws tomorrow night. doratheexplorer (Cavan) - Posts: 1467 - 09/04/2017 16:25:51 1977412 Link
Replying To doratheexplorer: "Championship draws tomorrow night." Let's see how smooth that runs.. Awwwwnow (Cavan) - Posts: 1050 - 10/04/2017 13:08:20 1977923 Link