National Forum

CASEMENT, BELFAST AND ANTRIM

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Recent stadium developments in the GAA have been a disaster especially in the big urban areas PnaG is a big hollow mess, PuC has potential but is currently an overspent mess. Waterford can't even get a modest redevelopment right and Antrim without a stadium.
With all the paid staff in HO maybe one should be appointed to oversee big infrastructure projects as it's too much for CBs it seems.

Also why close Casement could it not be left open til work started or was it condemned.it did look pretty rough the last match I was there

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 22/09/2019 22:39:26    2238388

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "Don't get me wrong. We have problems within the county and at provincial level too. There is too much division amongst the clubs and a lot of opposition and resentment from other Ulster counties about Casement. A lot of the Tyrone crowd are very anti Belfast. That still doesn't give the fact that Ireland's second city has been abysmally treated and shamefully ignored by Croke Park for decades."
I'm not anti Belfast. It's as handy got to from the east of the county as Omagh is.

OGarmaile (Tyrone) - Posts: 248 - 23/09/2019 10:14:38    2238442

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This obsession with population is crazy, when you breakdown the actual playing population and the areas supporting GAA games things always become much more complicated. At least 50% are hostile to GAA, in more affluent Nationalist areas I would Rugby is most popular, same as Dublin. That second city suddenly has got an awful lot smaller. How many clubs in Belfast? In areas where there is GAA are they competing with soccer especially in schools? All has a bearing on how much investment is required, if there is zero appetite for the games very hard for a central organisation to drive it. First there has to be people on the ground willing and able, surely there is a plan? Or are the county board only concerned with the rural games? Then you have the problem of casement Park will a spanking new stadium put more shirts on kids backs? Or would the investment be better spent on getting in more members, better facilities and more coaching/GPOs? Finally you are in a different jurisdiction with different laws and rules will Brexit affect GAA investment? Do we know? Are there any answers to these questions?

arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4897 - 23/09/2019 11:20:28    2238464

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Replying To Ulsterman:  "Don't get me wrong. We have problems within the county and at provincial level too. There is too much division amongst the clubs and a lot of opposition and resentment from other Ulster counties about Casement. A lot of the Tyrone crowd are very anti Belfast. That still doesn't give the fact that Ireland's second city has been abysmally treated and shamefully ignored by Croke Park for decades."
What are you on about "A lot of the Tyrone crowd are very anti Belfast."

Evidence and an explanation needed with that one?

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 23/09/2019 13:51:45    2238524

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Replying To tyroneed:  "As I understand it the Casement Park new stadium stalled due to local planning objections."
Something that I always wondered about.....if im correct 3 stadiums were built in the North, Casement, Ravenhill and Windsor.

Ravenhill and Windsor seemed to get though the planning process without a hitch, built in no time, no objections.

I have always found it very strange.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 23/09/2019 13:56:07    2238526

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Replying To arock:  "This obsession with population is crazy, when you breakdown the actual playing population and the areas supporting GAA games things always become much more complicated. At least 50% are hostile to GAA, in more affluent Nationalist areas I would Rugby is most popular, same as Dublin. That second city suddenly has got an awful lot smaller. How many clubs in Belfast? In areas where there is GAA are they competing with soccer especially in schools? All has a bearing on how much investment is required, if there is zero appetite for the games very hard for a central organisation to drive it. First there has to be people on the ground willing and able, surely there is a plan? Or are the county board only concerned with the rural games? Then you have the problem of casement Park will a spanking new stadium put more shirts on kids backs? Or would the investment be better spent on getting in more members, better facilities and more coaching/GPOs? Finally you are in a different jurisdiction with different laws and rules will Brexit affect GAA investment? Do we know? Are there any answers to these questions?"
Whatever the demographic Antrim GAA have a lot of work on their hands with neither code really performing well but I would certainly not begrudge them a new stadium as Casement definitely needed a big referb. As for affluent Nationalists being rugby fans I'm not so sure ,maybe they watch 6 nations and that on TV but from my experience with Ulster club rugby I would say it's all unionist not hardcore UVF or anything but definitely that side of town

Breezy (Limerick) - Posts: 1236 - 23/09/2019 14:22:18    2238540

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Something that I always wondered about.....if im correct 3 stadiums were built in the North, Casement, Ravenhill and Windsor.

Ravenhill and Windsor seemed to get though the planning process without a hitch, built in no time, no objections.

I have always found it very strange."
Ravenhill and Windsor had modest upgrades which required improving stands. They certainly didn't include a complete rebuild. Ulster GAA wanted a modern, flagship stadium that increased it's attendence but also provided office space and facilities which could earn money all year around.

They were basically given a free cheque worth £60 million which reduced their options and made Casement the only show in town.

Clones wouldn't of had the finance, infrastructure or room to provide the type of stadium Belfast could provide. Where the GAA went wrong was they were politically led and fell into the trap of having to provide a stadium for the Rugby World Cup bid.

As a result they forgot about planning guidelines and tried to push ahead regardless but I'm not sure it was solely the GAA pushing that agenda. Since those failed planning bids it appears Ulster GAA have went to basics and are running the whole project themselves.

There is a much more modest stadium size being proposed which will still provide 30K, year round facilities and an extensive infrastructure around it. The stands won't be as big and it appears all relevant agencies have been consulted throughout to ensure it's built and goes ahead this time.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 23/09/2019 15:00:15    2238555

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Belfast, not Antrim is the area covered by Gaelfast.

It covers Antrim.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 23/09/2019 15:19:49    2238568

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Something that I always wondered about.....if im correct 3 stadiums were built in the North, Casement, Ravenhill and Windsor.

Ravenhill and Windsor seemed to get though the planning process without a hitch, built in no time, no objections.

I have always found it very strange."
Nothing strange in what you note The_Fridge. I for one was not surprised at some of the things I have heard with regards to the difficulties that Casement faced that the others didn't. And nothing to do with the Residents or from within the GAA.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 23/09/2019 15:29:24    2238573

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Replying To Tir Conaill Abu:  "Not saying that at all witnof. Indeed they should be targeted. What I'm saying is that the arguments are being made that Dublin has a total population of x times every other county but the playing population is how funds should be allocated. The clubs should be trying to enlarge their membership each year and encourage as many into the games as possible. The FUNDING should be delivered to each county based on their registration for each year March to the following February. The lack of success by any large population, be that a town within a county, or a county within the island is down to their lack of organisation and channeling their funding into the right paths."
The point you are making does not add up. In the 60's early 70's one club in Dublin made up 70% of the Dublin team with maybe less than 2 senior club teams in the southside of the city. If the funding followed your logic, then there may still be little football southside in Dublin. Belfast should have a good stadium to represent the population and maybe help to the divided city-sport brings people together. I am though vey disappointed with the objections that were made by locals to proposed stadium. Now a stadium of 40k would be good. CP does not have a good reputation on decision making / supervision on these matters- the pitch in Cork is a good example.

browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 23/09/2019 17:40:15    2238604

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Replying To Offside_Rule:  "Belfast, not Antrim is the area covered by Gaelfast.

It covers Antrim."
Sorry I was mistaken.

I misread an article explaining it, that sounded like only Belfast clubs including Bredagh and Carryduff were benefiting.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4235 - 23/09/2019 18:32:02    2238615

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Our county board of 2013 really put the nail in the coffin when they decided to close the gates of Casement for good. Not one bit of common sense went into that decision. There was every chance the new Casement would face difficulties, especially when the DUP are involved. The gates were closed. The surface was allowed to grow into big cat ambush territory and every local undesirable came along and stripped the ground of scrap metal and anything else of value. This makes the ground in its current state beyond use and now we are left with obscure club venues as a make shift county ground.

I dont for one second believe that having a top county ground will solve all our problems, but when we had Casement opened it was used for McKenna Cup, National league both codes, Ulster qf and sf sometimes, AI club matches including a popular neutral venue for replays etc. This generated a decent interest level for the GAA community in Belfast and beyond. Today Antrim venues are largly bypassed and given to other counties. The promotion of good standard games is missing in Belfast. Its time for the GAA to put our local politicians to shame, show some leadership and give us a ground befitting of Ireland's second City. Not just for the good of Antrim but for all counties who will get to use it.

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 23/09/2019 20:27:30    2238627

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Gaelfast is a good starting point for Antrim GAA. It at least identifies more than anything what our county needs and that's coaching and promotion of the games to kids at primary school level upwards. Its not going to change anything too noticeable in the next few years but hopefully funding continues to increase for this as it should when you compare it to what it is per person in Dublin. If anything Dublin is an accomplished mission and extra funding that was given there should be redirected not only to Antrim but many other counties who arent being as well represented as they should be. I mean if 5 AI's in a row cant inspire the next generation of Dublin players nothing will!

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 23/09/2019 20:40:33    2238632

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Replying To Tir Conaill Abu:  "This "population to funding" example needs to be knocked on the head. Larger cities have larger populations but there is a very high % of that population that will never have any interest in the GAA or participating in its games. Cork, Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Belfast etc. have all been multicultural for the best part of 20 years yet look at the % of players from non-irish parents playing at the top level.
If we are to assign funding on population figures then it needs to be per registered player in each county. This will still show that Dublin does get a high percentage of funding and the ratio will still be shown above other counties but not the sensational figures that are being thrown about by Antrim, Meath and other counties that are looking for an excuse rather than looking at their own systems and player development."
If you believe that then you should be up in arms regarding the current situation. Did Dublin have 20 times the registered players of all the other counties that received 20 times less funding? The answer is no. No matter what way you look at it Dublin are over funded and the rest underfunded.

Jack_Goff (Meath) - Posts: 2920 - 23/09/2019 21:43:34    2238645

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The sooner a new stadium is built at Casement Park the better. It is not right for Antrim GAA or Ulster GAA in general for that ground to be overgrown in weeds and left dilapidated.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 23/09/2019 22:45:19    2238657

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Replying To sam1884:  "Ravenhill and Windsor had modest upgrades which required improving stands. They certainly didn't include a complete rebuild. Ulster GAA wanted a modern, flagship stadium that increased it's attendence but also provided office space and facilities which could earn money all year around.

They were basically given a free cheque worth £60 million which reduced their options and made Casement the only show in town.

Clones wouldn't of had the finance, infrastructure or room to provide the type of stadium Belfast could provide. Where the GAA went wrong was they were politically led and fell into the trap of having to provide a stadium for the Rugby World Cup bid.

As a result they forgot about planning guidelines and tried to push ahead regardless but I'm not sure it was solely the GAA pushing that agenda. Since those failed planning bids it appears Ulster GAA have went to basics and are running the whole project themselves.

There is a much more modest stadium size being proposed which will still provide 30K, year round facilities and an extensive infrastructure around it. The stands won't be as big and it appears all relevant agencies have been consulted throughout to ensure it's built and goes ahead this time."
Ravenhill build 3 brand new stands and Windsor spent more than 25 million, i would say that's more that a "modest upgrade", closer to a new built.

I'm just saying with the political climate in the north there could have been potential for foul play.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 24/09/2019 06:44:51    2238671

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Ravenhill build 3 brand new stands and Windsor spent more than 25 million, i would say that's more that a "modest upgrade", closer to a new built.

I'm just saying with the political climate in the north there could have been potential for foul play."
Sorry I meant I'm not sure the stands at the other two upgrades were much larger (in height) than what had been there previously. The initial Casement proposal was significantly larger and bigger than what the old Casement was. There was also a significant increase in capacity which had to be factored into the plans. The initial Casement proposal particular along one size would have been a fantastic stadium and became the main part of that area's skyline.

I wouldn't disagree with the potential political foul play but in this case I think what went wrong was the project was controlled from outside the GAA with the Rugby bid in mind. External influences tried to push through the largest stadium possible but the courts got involved and stopped it happening.

Ulster GAA has helped to significantly improve facilities right across the province and have a great reputation in doing so with little planning issues- now this project is solely in their hands I think they'll deliver a new stadium at Casement in the way it should have been delivered right from the start without external influences.

sam1884 (UK) - Posts: 999 - 24/09/2019 09:02:19    2238682

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Replying To Jack_Goff:  "If you believe that then you should be up in arms regarding the current situation. Did Dublin have 20 times the registered players of all the other counties that received 20 times less funding? The answer is no. No matter what way you look at it Dublin are over funded and the rest underfunded."
Yes but that funding is games development funding. Do you think GDF is only invested in registered players or do you think that it is also used for the promotion of the games to the wider population?

Joxer (Dublin) - Posts: 4700 - 24/09/2019 11:50:40    2238733

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Replying To Joxer:  "Yes but that funding is games development funding. Do you think GDF is only invested in registered players or do you think that it is also used for the promotion of the games to the wider population?"
Does it matter? Is Dublin the only place that promotion of the games should be getting exceptional funding? Your footballers have won 5 in a row now. Name me a better promotion of the games than that?

SaffronDon (Antrim) - Posts: 2386 - 24/09/2019 12:17:29    2238753

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Replying To sam1884:  "Sorry I meant I'm not sure the stands at the other two upgrades were much larger (in height) than what had been there previously. The initial Casement proposal was significantly larger and bigger than what the old Casement was. There was also a significant increase in capacity which had to be factored into the plans. The initial Casement proposal particular along one size would have been a fantastic stadium and became the main part of that area's skyline.

I wouldn't disagree with the potential political foul play but in this case I think what went wrong was the project was controlled from outside the GAA with the Rugby bid in mind. External influences tried to push through the largest stadium possible but the courts got involved and stopped it happening.

Ulster GAA has helped to significantly improve facilities right across the province and have a great reputation in doing so with little planning issues- now this project is solely in their hands I think they'll deliver a new stadium at Casement in the way it should have been delivered right from the start without external influences."
Sam I'll let you into a secret.... ULSTER GAA has always been in charge of the project.. arrogance from both them and our County Board were the cause of the initial delay.

There was not a significant increase in capacity, previously casement could have held 25/30000, about 2/3 of that standing, the concrete seating and stand in the remaining third were not fit for purpose, hence the plans to completely revamp, the original plans would have held 38000 seats.

It will still go ahead, however, planning and the bureaucracy around that including the reluctance of senior civil servants to sign off are causing the delay atm. From what im led to believe the issues flagged up by the judge in initial JR re emergency evacuation have been addressed. Those involved from all sides still expect the project to go ahead...when is another question entirely!

bumpernut (Antrim) - Posts: 1852 - 24/09/2019 13:41:20    2238782

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