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Interesting points, so would you say a club all Ireland is more reflective of individual greatness then say inter county. Is say Connolly's achievements at club level or hurling more reflective of his greatness then his 10+ national titles.
Like most things it's probably not a black and white arguement, I suppose you have to look at it in context. Take the Mattie Forde comparrision, their may be a case there for players who won't get in an arses roar, personally I don't look at them as great players as I thing out come has to be considered for greatness. But does Seamus Darby intervention in a final make him more or less a great player,
If you consider the context that some teams can't compete for the ultimate prize , you have to consider the ones that can, do and fail. Look at the current Mayo team and players lads are saying some of that team are great, they have been able to contest for the top prize since 2012 but have just failed, something Forde etc couldn't do, given limits. I think something that often forgotten particularly about Connolly is he was part of a group players that didn't bottle it, dealt with the pressure of almost two decade of pressure, to bring Sam to Dublin. That's something and an attribute some other players haven't achieved and yes that is a difference in good players and great ones, maybe the difference utmstely in lads like Keegan and Connolly.
I personally don't beIeve players are great unles they win the top prize, I would expect counties who struggle 5o win it to agree with that, that's just my opinion and in reality how hir5ory will judge your all time teams from era decades etc. Ciaran Whealan was very good player for Dublin, was he a great player no, he ultimately failed to win the top prize. I think he would be the first to admit that to be honest.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 27/03/2018 22:26:15
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Replying To alano12: "this is up there with some of the stupidest arguments on this site, whealo was amongst the best dublin players of the last 20-30 years with nothing to show for it and hes a lot better than some of our multiple all ireland winners. Quite strange to argue someone cant be great especially in a sport where its largely down to what county you grew up in with very few inter county transfers." Funny though isn't
Many wouldn't describe a team as great if they didn't win an AI
Even teams that have won a single AI wouldn't be considered great until they won back to backs or won a few titles across a decade.
But an individual can be considered great without winning a thing.
It's a strange one.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 27/03/2018 22:29:19
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Replying To TheUsername: "Interesting points, so would you say a club all Ireland is more reflective of individual greatness then say inter county. Is say Connolly's achievements at club level or hurling more reflective of his greatness then his 10+ national titles.
Like most things it's probably not a black and white arguement, I suppose you have to look at it in context. Take the Mattie Forde comparrision, their may be a case there for players who won't get in an arses roar, personally I don't look at them as great players as I thing out come has to be considered for greatness. But does Seamus Darby intervention in a final make him more or less a great player,
If you consider the context that some teams can't compete for the ultimate prize , you have to consider the ones that can, do and fail. Look at the current Mayo team and players lads are saying some of that team are great, they have been able to contest for the top prize since 2012 but have just failed, something Forde etc couldn't do, given limits. I think something that often forgotten particularly about Connolly is he was part of a group players that didn't bottle it, dealt with the pressure of almost two decade of pressure, to bring Sam to Dublin. That's something and an attribute some other players haven't achieved and yes that is a difference in good players and great ones, maybe the difference utmstely in lads like Keegan and Connolly.
I personally don't beIeve players are great unles they win the top prize, I would expect counties who struggle 5o win it to agree with that, that's just my opinion and in reality how hir5ory will judge your all time teams from era decades etc. Ciaran Whealan was very good player for Dublin, was he a great player no, he ultimately failed to win the top prize. I think he would be the first to admit that to be honest." He wasn't great off his left foot either ;)
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 27/03/2018 22:32:17
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Denis was also a champ break dancer
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=grerhs9swnE
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 27/03/2018 22:42:25
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Replying To TheUsername: "Interesting points, so would you say a club all Ireland is more reflective of individual greatness then say inter county. Is say Connolly's achievements at club level or hurling more reflective of his greatness then his 10+ national titles.
Like most things it's probably not a black and white arguement, I suppose you have to look at it in context. Take the Mattie Forde comparrision, their may be a case there for players who won't get in an arses roar, personally I don't look at them as great players as I thing out come has to be considered for greatness. But does Seamus Darby intervention in a final make him more or less a great player,
If you consider the context that some teams can't compete for the ultimate prize , you have to consider the ones that can, do and fail. Look at the current Mayo team and players lads are saying some of that team are great, they have been able to contest for the top prize since 2012 but have just failed, something Forde etc couldn't do, given limits. I think something that often forgotten particularly about Connolly is he was part of a group players that didn't bottle it, dealt with the pressure of almost two decade of pressure, to bring Sam to Dublin. That's something and an attribute some other players haven't achieved and yes that is a difference in good players and great ones, maybe the difference utmstely in lads like Keegan and Connolly.
I personally don't beIeve players are great unles they win the top prize, I would expect counties who struggle 5o win it to agree with that, that's just my opinion and in reality how hir5ory will judge your all time teams from era decades etc. Ciaran Whealan was very good player for Dublin, was he a great player no, he ultimately failed to win the top prize. I think he would be the first to admit that to be honest." Couldn't agree that you have to win the ultimate prize to be labeled as great. In a team sport your curtailed with what is around you.
Dermot Early was great, Ciaran MacDonald etc etc...just cause they didn't win the Sam Does not lessen their status.
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 27/03/2018 22:51:22
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Replying To jimbodub: "Funny though isn't
Many wouldn't describe a team as great if they didn't win an AI
Even teams that have won a single AI wouldn't be considered great until they won back to backs or won a few titles across a decade.
But an individual can be considered great without winning a thing.
It's a strange one." It's not that strange. It's a team sport, so teams get measured on what they win.
Great individual players can always exist in teams which aren't great.
There are no individual titles to be won in GAA apart from All Stars. There many great players with All Stars but no All Ireland.
As a single member of a 15 man team, you're always going to be very reliant on your teammates, no matter how good you are.
WanPintWin (Galway) - Posts: 2046 - 27/03/2018 23:03:18
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Replying To yew_tree: "Couldn't agree that you have to win the ultimate prize to be labeled as great. In a team sport your curtailed with what is around you.
Dermot Early was great, Ciaran MacDonald etc etc...just cause they didn't win the Sam Does not lessen their status." Would disagree with you here mate:
"Dermot Early was great, Ciaran MacDonald etc etc just cause they didn't win an the Sam does not lessen their status."
Would have winning an All Ireland increased their status? Of course it would. By that very rationale their status is lower because they didn't.
See this is a bad example, whatever about Forde and counties that will never get to a final, both played on the biggest stage in an all Ireland and failed in a 50/50 contest, does this constitute greatness?
Is Pagraig Joyce considered a greater player then Early, yes from me, why? He won an allIreland.
Is Maurice Fitzgerald considered a greater player then Ciaran McDonald? Is Gooch? Yes, why? They bet him in all Ireland finals.
Not saying these lads aren't good players, but what makes great players like Joyce, Fitzgerald and Gooch is actually winning all Ireland's. Out come dictates greatness.
As Kildare and Mayo were competing in all Ireland finals in the above era, were they or there players great, or were the very good players who failed and others are greater because they prevailed.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 27/03/2018 23:59:19
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TheUsername (Dublin) quote:
'I personally don't beIeve players are great unles they win the top prize, I would expect counties who struggle 5o win it to agree with that, that's just my opinion and in reality how hir5ory will judge your all time teams from era decades etc. Ciaran Whealan was very good player for Dublin, was he a great player no, he ultimately failed to win the top prize. I think he would be the first to admit that to be honest'.
The team wins the top prize and the players who make up that team contribute, the better ones more than the average ones. Take any one of Dublin's top players and put on the Leitrim team and see how the would progress in Connaught
You comment makes little sense as to win you do require quite a few very good players in your team but never are all of the team very good players. Teams that loose AI's can have 3 or 4 of the best players on view but they may not have the best overall 15. Dublin had no defender as good as Boyle at wing back and Higgins was not far behind. Dublin won because they had overall more experienced players.(including some very good players) and a better free taker than Mayo. The also had a few players who were very good at the ould tackle which is quite often used in rugby.
browncows (Meath) - Posts: 2342 - 28/03/2018 00:49:29
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Replying To TheFlaker: "No offence to the Dubs but he really isn't the be all and end all. They can win it without him. Don't think he will start during the summer to be honest, not sure Gavin fancies him anymore for the big games." He seemed the be all and end all in last years final when he came on and changed the game
Galwayjoe86 (Galway) - Posts: 258 - 28/03/2018 11:47:16
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Replying To TheUsername: "Would disagree with you here mate:
"Dermot Early was great, Ciaran MacDonald etc etc just cause they didn't win an the Sam does not lessen their status."
Would have winning an All Ireland increased their status? Of course it would. By that very rationale their status is lower because they didn't.
See this is a bad example, whatever about Forde and counties that will never get to a final, both played on the biggest stage in an all Ireland and failed in a 50/50 contest, does this constitute greatness?
Is Pagraig Joyce considered a greater player then Early, yes from me, why? He won an allIreland.
Is Maurice Fitzgerald considered a greater player then Ciaran McDonald? Is Gooch? Yes, why? They bet him in all Ireland finals.
Not saying these lads aren't good players, but what makes great players like Joyce, Fitzgerald and Gooch is actually winning all Ireland's. Out come dictates greatness.
As Kildare and Mayo were competing in all Ireland finals in the above era, were they or there players great, or were the very good players who failed and others are greater because they prevailed." Great teams and great players are a totally different conversation. yes Mc Donald was a great. one of the best I've ever seen. Maurice was a great. the best I've ever seen, yet he came very close to never winning an all Ireland. would that lessen the player that everyone knew he was? and yes i know he more or less single handedly won Kerry the all Ireland in 1997. teams win all irelands not individuals.
theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 28/03/2018 12:04:02
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Replying To theweanling: "Great teams and great players are a totally different conversation. yes Mc Donald was a great. one of the best I've ever seen. Maurice was a great. the best I've ever seen, yet he came very close to never winning an all Ireland. would that lessen the player that everyone knew he was? and yes i know he more or less single handedly won Kerry the all Ireland in 1997. teams win all irelands not individuals." But is Mauirces legend or greatness increased because as you say he pretty much made a huge contribution to getting Kerry over the line?
Im not saying i am right, im just stating my opinion.
Im reluctant to call certain players great without all ireland success, particularly those at counties who are competing in finals consistently. I would acknowledge in that context there are cases that could be made for fine players that may never get out of their provinces like lads have mentioned like Browne of Forde like lads have mentioned. But i would be very reluctant to call very good players great players, when they are consistently competing are or have been competing for all Irelands or loosing finals etc. Being a practical good player is one thing, but other admirable qualities come into play likie the mental resolve and leadership without buckling to get over the line and be successful. Limited teams can beat teams of a higher quality we have seen it over the years. For me showing this and achieving this is a mark of greatness as much as it is being a skillful footballer or one thats easy on the eye. Its a rare quality that very few and elite players achieve, personally its something i look to when your talking about great players, hence my opinion.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2018 12:16:26
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Las to be honest
You're sort of describing very famous players, highly talented no doubt.. but great? Nah not so sure about that.
Greatness is a different thing altogether
Only a small handful of players are truly great
Great players achieve the ultimate and redefine their sports through their talent or go onto be successful managers at the highest level bringing something transformational to the sports.
Only a very select few are great and that term deserves to be used rarely.
As an example - D Early was a very good player and I enjoyed watching him play, probably saw more of him live than most of yiz here but he wasn't overly comfortable off both feet and was quite slow - not a huge amount of pace and he certainly didn't bring anything to the game that wasn't seen before by other big fella's around the middle.
Again. Greatness only belongs to a very select few and just because a player is well thought of and a house hold name doesn't make them greats of the game IMO
Vinny Murphy - won an All Ireland, household name, had a long career, gave his all, loved by Dublin fans. He's not a great of the game though.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 28/03/2018 12:25:57
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Ciaran MacDonal is a great of the GAA, the Mayo teams that got to the finals in 04 and 06 could probably be the worst teams ever to make it to a final but they got there cause of him really, he carried them teams, its no wonder he had a bad back ;)..he was scoring in them finals, kicking scores from sidelines so not his fault our defence was no good
tommy132 (Mayo) - Posts: 602 - 28/03/2018 12:31:24
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Messi will never win the World Cup...does that lessen his status? No way
yew_tree (Mayo) - Posts: 11236 - 28/03/2018 13:12:08
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Replying To yew_tree: "Messi will never win the World Cup...does that lessen his status? No way" Ridiculous comparison!
TrueBlue35 (Dublin) - Posts: 206 - 28/03/2018 13:24:38
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Replying To yew_tree: "Messi will never win the World Cup...does that lessen his status? No way" Have you ever been to Argentina mate?
Ive had that conversation between Messi and Maradonna there, so in fact its does. Messi will never be consisidered even the greatest Argentinian footballer in the eyes of his own country men until he wins the world cup, even then he would only be matching Maradonna in the eyes of many.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2018 14:04:58
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Replying To jimbodub: "Las to be honest
You're sort of describing very famous players, highly talented no doubt.. but great? Nah not so sure about that.
Greatness is a different thing altogether
Only a small handful of players are truly great
Great players achieve the ultimate and redefine their sports through their talent or go onto be successful managers at the highest level bringing something transformational to the sports.
Only a very select few are great and that term deserves to be used rarely.
As an example - D Early was a very good player and I enjoyed watching him play, probably saw more of him live than most of yiz here but he wasn't overly comfortable off both feet and was quite slow - not a huge amount of pace and he certainly didn't bring anything to the game that wasn't seen before by other big fella's around the middle.
Again. Greatness only belongs to a very select few and just because a player is well thought of and a house hold name doesn't make them greats of the game IMO
Vinny Murphy - won an All Ireland, household name, had a long career, gave his all, loved by Dublin fans. He's not a great of the game though." So by virtue of your logic Username, are all All Ireland winning players going down as greats?? I don't think they should and the reverse is then true as well. You don't have to win the ultimate prize to be a great individual player, for most counties it's an impossibility because the great player can be surrounded by average or less than average players who will always hold him from winning an All Ireland. Not his fault but he's part of a team. I like most of what you say on here but can't agree with you in this case.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 28/03/2018 14:10:26
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Replying To jimbodub: "Las to be honest
You're sort of describing very famous players, highly talented no doubt.. but great? Nah not so sure about that.
Greatness is a different thing altogether
Only a small handful of players are truly great
Great players achieve the ultimate and redefine their sports through their talent or go onto be successful managers at the highest level bringing something transformational to the sports.
Only a very select few are great and that term deserves to be used rarely.
As an example - D Early was a very good player and I enjoyed watching him play, probably saw more of him live than most of yiz here but he wasn't overly comfortable off both feet and was quite slow - not a huge amount of pace and he certainly didn't bring anything to the game that wasn't seen before by other big fella's around the middle.
Again. Greatness only belongs to a very select few and just because a player is well thought of and a house hold name doesn't make them greats of the game IMO
Vinny Murphy - won an All Ireland, household name, had a long career, gave his all, loved by Dublin fans. He's not a great of the game though." Vinnie's going to get ya!!!!!
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 28/03/2018 14:16:39
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Replying To kildare73: "So by virtue of your logic Username, are all All Ireland winning players going down as greats?? I don't think they should and the reverse is then true as well. You don't have to win the ultimate prize to be a great individual player, for most counties it's an impossibility because the great player can be surrounded by average or less than average players who will always hold him from winning an All Ireland. Not his fault but he's part of a team. I like most of what you say on here but can't agree with you in this case." I dont necessarily subscribe to that point of view, i think there are teams out there both historically and currently who are good enough to win all irelands in fact they are contesting them that havent and have failed consistently to, they clearly have good players, i just dispute that these players are great because ultimately they failed, or lacked something mentally, psychologically to succeed. Your post puts forth the premise that their is a glass ceiling there, there could be for some counties and i acknowledge that. But say for the current Mayo team or the one that contested finals in the 90s or the Kildare team of 98, were both good enough to win All Irelands yes, did they? no. Something was lacking. Its the difference between good and great players.
Take Dermot Connolly he was part of a team that won an All Ireland after 16 years, he was able to deal with the mental pressure of that burden the fear of failure in what was more probably more of a limited Dublin team in 2011, then others he has won in. There is a difference there between him and say someone like Lee Keegan, McDonalad or Dermot Early they couldnt match an achievement like that, it whats makes some players great and others good players. Perosnally i wouldnt say there is much difference in quality in the Dublin 2011 team and historic, current Mayo and Kildare teams. Thus until say someone like Keegan wins an Ireland and he has lost what four finals now, he cant be considered a great player like someone like Connolly given his achievements in the game, there just isnt any comparrison. Just my opinion.
Keegan is a fine player, one of the best in the country, but for me he wont be considered a great player like McDonald or Early until he wins Sam. My opinion in reality really doesnt matter, in fact ill be in the minority, it really doesnt matter, in years to come if he doesnt do it win an All Ireland he will always be open to the fact that he never won the top prize despite having so many opportunists. Lads can call whoever they want great really and obviously every county, particularly unsuccessful ones, will like t call their best players great, but are they really, hmm not for me.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 28/03/2018 14:35:28
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Replying To TheUsername: "I dont necessarily subscribe to that point of view, i think there are teams out there both historically and currently who are good enough to win all irelands in fact they are contesting them that havent and have failed consistently to, they clearly have good players, i just dispute that these players are great because ultimately they failed, or lacked something mentally, psychologically to succeed. Your post puts forth the premise that their is a glass ceiling there, there could be for some counties and i acknowledge that. But say for the current Mayo team or the one that contested finals in the 90s or the Kildare team of 98, were both good enough to win All Irelands yes, did they? no. Something was lacking. Its the difference between good and great players.
Take Dermot Connolly he was part of a team that won an All Ireland after 16 years, he was able to deal with the mental pressure of that burden the fear of failure in what was more probably more of a limited Dublin team in 2011, then others he has won in. There is a difference there between him and say someone like Lee Keegan, McDonalad or Dermot Early they couldnt match an achievement like that, it whats makes some players great and others good players. Perosnally i wouldnt say there is much difference in quality in the Dublin 2011 team and historic, current Mayo and Kildare teams. Thus until say someone like Keegan wins an Ireland and he has lost what four finals now, he cant be considered a great player like someone like Connolly given his achievements in the game, there just isnt any comparrison. Just my opinion.
Keegan is a fine player, one of the best in the country, but for me he wont be considered a great player like McDonald or Early until he wins Sam. My opinion in reality really doesnt matter, in fact ill be in the minority, it really doesnt matter, in years to come if he doesnt do it win an All Ireland he will always be open to the fact that he never won the top prize despite having so many opportunists. Lads can call whoever they want great really and obviously every county, particularly unsuccessful ones, will like t call their best players great, but are they really, hmm not for me." I suppose we will just differ on this but I still don't go along with your premise. Everyone by virtue of logic can't be a winner but individuals still stand out. After that it's an opinions game amongst us all as to who we regard as great or not. That's what makes debates interesting.
kildare73 (Kildare) - Posts: 854 - 28/03/2018 15:11:48
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