delighted foolsgood you think we are so good, pity paul early didnt think the same .#not one on on the aussie panel. lets us know where we are

sammaguire1 (Cavan) - Posts: 279 - 20/11/2014 16:40:10    1673761

Where did i say were so good? And what has the International Rules got to do with anything?, Armagh reached the All Ireland Quarter finals this year, who have they on Paul Earlys Squad.

Seanie Johnston must have won 5 All Stars in your book.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 20/11/2014 17:52:06    1673791

ponger
County: Cavan
Posts: 270

1673645
To me Givney talking a year out is just a symptom of the problem at the moment and i think this compounded last years performances. To me a lot of these lads are tired. When i say tired i don't mean physically, i mean mentally. Some of the lads have played u21, then gone straight to the senior panel, then gone back to u21 and in turn back to the senior panel (never mind club or college football) and all this without much of a break, if any.

Naturally we all expect them to grow up quick and become a brilliant team. Are we expecting too much as the sad fact maybe that some of them might get burned out or fed up before the brilliant team thing happens. Usually the younger guys are introduced bit by bit as the older lads on a panel still pull their weight and carry the can. We just have a group of young lads who were mostly thrown in at the deep end...

If you look back at Givney's performances last year, i think this was evident to see and i think we have just got the natural reaction to that..

Well said and you may well have hit the nail on the head with that assessment. Yes, we all got carried away with some underage success. The good foundation to add these lads into was not there, they were coming onto a senior team ranked among the worst in Ireland. I don't know if we'll ever make a breakthrough at senior, I certainly hope so, but the jury is still out. Not good when you see lads opting off the panel and others taking flight come championship time as happened last year.

Then again if Roscommon can do it and they are making clear strides, why can't we?

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 20/11/2014 18:16:00    1673802

David Moran was the only Kerry player picked for the Internatioanl from Kerry and they are All Ireland Champions.

And you're complaining that there is none from Cavan.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 20/11/2014 18:24:26    1673805

Are you surprised David is not playing this coming year he was finding it hard to adapt to the new way of playing and was finding it difficult to get starting so I for one am not a bit surprised he is not starting with the county panel, don't be surprised if a few more follow him.

mowbar (Cavan) - Posts: 452 - 20/11/2014 19:03:33    1673814

Foolsgold in an earlier post you mentioned hessin, o Connor , Hayes enda o Reilly to be added to the squad as forwards. So what about all the forwards from previous ulster u21 teams? Do we not persevere with those? Or do we keep choping and changing every year? We won 4 ulster 21s and lost 1 on 2010 and we still can't get a settled senior squad 5 years down the line? If our main forward players are Mackey, Dunnie, Keating, martin Reilly , Lyng where are all these u21s forwards of the past 5 years? Something is going wrong.

dirtybag (Cavan) - Posts: 242 - 20/11/2014 19:25:21    1673822

Do cavan people forget that you won the under 21 titles by a defensive game plan which aim is to minimise scores so a team with bad forwards can have a chance of winning

shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1928 - 20/11/2014 19:46:49    1673831

dirtybag
County: Cavan
Posts: 168

1673822 Foolsgold in an earlier post you mentioned hessin, o Connor , Hayes enda o Reilly to be added to the squad as forwards. So what about all the forwards from previous ulster u21 teams? Do we not persevere with those? Or do we keep choping and changing every year? We won 4 ulster 21s and lost 1 on 2010 and we still can't get a settled senior squad 5 years down the line? If our main forward players are Mackey, Dunnie, Keating, martin Reilly , Lyng where are all these u21s forwards of the past 5 years? Something is going wrong.

You obviously build a team around the seasoned players like Keating, Martin Reilly, Cian Mackey.They don't all become super stars over night, some might not make it , some need time to develop at County Senior. . Also the forward line has been pretty similiar in 2013 and 2014 so how is that chopping and changing i?t Things change, some players opt out of panels, players get injured etc , so obviously there can be changss to the forward line

Galway team that won the All Ireland U21 in 2011, those forwards, like Danny Cummins are still adjusting to Senior football. He will be 25 next year and probaly at the age where he will start to show his best. Mark Hehir another excellent payer from that team fell out of favour

You mentioned O Connor wasn't starting for the Gaels, he was until he got injured in the Quater and missed the rest of the championship.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 20/11/2014 20:01:48    1673833

shaggylegend
County: Monaghan
Posts: 1208

1673831
Do cavan people forget that you won the under 21 titles by a defensive game plan which aim is to minimise scores so a team with bad forwards can have a chance of winning

Jealousy will get you nowhere..... Why didn't yous do the same then?

Ned_Stormcrow (Cavan) - Posts: 1071 - 20/11/2014 21:20:47    1673859

Some very good points here about lads thrown in at the deep end and not having an experienced core of mature senior players. The Cavan senior team of 2010-12 was pathetic in my opinion. Emerging players like David Givney were swallowed up in the process. Michael Argue has a hell of a lot of football under his belt and believe it or not he's still under 21 next year again. As for the Australian games I think it's a nonsense and of no benefit whatever to any player or county.

RoyalBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 198 - 20/11/2014 21:58:14    1673871

Jealousy I don't think so ned. Just this year for example four of the team that lost to Cavan in Armagh in the under 21 championship started for Monaghan in the senior championship compared to just two from the Cavan team. At the end of the day minor and under 21 is about developing players for senior level. You have to remember that Cavan have spent year at underage level developing a defensive game plan and with under 21 football its hard to come up with a plan to counteract cavan system in a week. Especially with young lads at college. So Cavan had a massive advantage with the defensive screen being well prepared and fair play to the coaches that achieved success at underage.

shaggylegend (Monaghan) - Posts: 1928 - 21/11/2014 14:19:17    1673970

shaggylegend
County: Monaghan

You have to ignore some of the immature comments made on these forums.
You are right, there is nothing to be jealous off. Ok we have won 4 Ulster U21 titles which is a fantastic success, but we have not found the formula to convert this success to Senior level yet.
Yes our system has been to limit others scoring potential but at the cost of players not expressing their true talent. Ok, there has to be a system, a plan, a strategy, but it should not limit the talent that is very obviously there.
These lads are expressing themselves in club games, but not allowed to it seems in County games.
For all our underage success, there is a drought at Senior level. In fairness to Monaghan they have a defensive style, but it alos allows forwards such as Mc Manus to express themselves to some degree. We need to find a balance that works.
Maybe the new back room team will bring a fresh approach.
Its a pity Mackey and Givney are out. mackey has been carrying that injury for a wile and he needs time to recover properly. Givney looks tired and is probably exhausted mentally and physically. I can understand as he has been playing minor, u21 and senior for club and county, school and sigerson, plus Ulster without a break. The body can only take so much.
We demand too much of young players. They should be allowed to develop and transition naturally. Everyone does it at a differnt pace.Our bodies need rest.
Minor and U21 players have a 12 month season, between school, college, club and county. Where's the rest, where's the recovery?
Some will say, awh young lads are soft, back in the day we did..... back in the day nothing pretty much happened between October and February !!
So back to the squad. We have talent, they need time to develop, adapt, toughen mentally and physically, grow a thick skin to repel the crap thrown at them as they do their best. I'm sure we will find the balance soon. It's not from want of trying. Looking forward to a great occassion next May in Breffni. Should be a packed house

StirringIt (Cavan) - Posts: 374 - 21/11/2014 14:41:24    1673981

Agree with royalblue2 ...the senior team wasn't up to much so when the u21's came in, the cavan seniors were at an all time low - close to div4! Look back at 1996 and 1997 - good u21 team fed into a good senior team who got promoted to div 1 the season before and then won ulster

sidelineview (Cavan) - Posts: 109 - 21/11/2014 15:06:23    1673996

We really have to start to play a attacking strategy we have players like Dunne and eating inside who will destroy defender inside in we get the ball in to them fast. If we had of done this this year would we have got further?? Yes I think so. In my opinion I think Givney we'll be a big loss round the middle of the field and full forward. Think with him gone it IS time to bring back in Seanie...

Mounty (Cavan) - Posts: 32 - 23/11/2014 13:52:44    1674315

Definitely no comparison between the last few years and 95/97. We had a spine of seasoned players then - Damian O'Reilly, Bernard Morris, Stephen King, Fintan Cahill Ronan Carolan Ciaran Brady; these lads were strong and tough and could play football - 4 of them were on the Ulster panel in those years. Another point worth noting is that we had quality forwards coming in like Peter and Larry Reilly, Anthony Forde and Jason Reilly. They were genuine strikers. As pointed out by earlier posts we didn't allow our U-21s to develop a proper forward unit - they spent a lot of their time defending and carrying the ball around the middle third of the field. Michael Argue was our top scorer in 2014 - from midfield!
It's high time we allowed lads some space to express themselves and develop their game as forwards. We beat Donegal in this year's final only when we abandoned the cat-and -mouse football in the last 5 minutes of the game and scored 1-3. I'm looking forward to 2015 but the thought of more puke football is at the back of my mind and it'll stay there till I see some proof that we've moved things on.

RoyalBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 198 - 23/11/2014 17:44:48    1674372

Probaly back then no teams were playing real defensive football, Tyrone in 03 started it off, and then Donegal U21's in 2010 under McGuinness and at Senior level for the next 4 years. It's the trend for Ulster teams to be defensive, Peter Donnelly came to Cavan in and set the foundation at under age and it's worked well, but need to be more expansive now.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 24/11/2014 11:22:05    1674511

Foolsgold I agree. Tyrone and Armagh perfected it in the early 2000's but they had some stand out forwards as well and that made it look better maybe. Donegal in 2011 brought it to a new low but as you say it began with their U-21s in 2010. Donegal did tweak it enough in 2012 to win the All-Ireland but reverted to type afterwards. In Cavan we did need to do something urgently about our defensive play at adult level and in fairness to Peter Donnelly he sorted that out although it was at a cost.
I don't think this style of football sits easily in Cavan - or Monaghan either - and when they won the Ulster in 2013 they played a far more open game, both against us in the semi-final and against Donegal in the final that year. I'm an optimist and I think that next year's Cavan v Monaghan championship match will be the same - an open hard game of real championship football just like the last one.

RoyalBlue2 (Cavan) - Posts: 198 - 24/11/2014 13:56:12    1674552

Yeah Tyrone and Armagh had lethal finishers which worked well I suppose, O Neill, Canavan, McDonnell, McConville.

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 24/11/2014 15:37:03    1674601

Interesting to read Benny Coulters view on football at present http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=228237

FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 26/11/2014 10:55:26    1674962

Don't think bent is too far out either. Very few natural ability forwards around nowadays. I'd say frank mc guigan was rarely inside the door of a gym when playing. And boy could he play!

dirtybag (Cavan) - Posts: 242 - 26/11/2014 11:53:43    1674978