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Replying To Hardtimes: "Exactly. The "Giants" from Cork that beat us in 2013, beat us by a point. We missed a last minute free to equalize. We also gave away a crazy point just before that to hand them the initiative when we were on top and looked likely winners. We were Ulster 3 in a row Champions at the time! Beat Donegal regularly who actually had a giant among boys in Paddy McBrearty! We had Ulster minor Champions in that team from 2 years previously. How can anyone say our youth sides are consistently smaller in size and physique to other teams. The truth is we got notions about ourselves again. Wanting success but not willing to do the hard graft or put in the dirty work. Blowing young players up and sending them out half assed without a game plan to get beat. Playing off the cuff is great but only when things are going well. When things get tricky you need to knuckle down and ride it out but that requires players willing to bust a gut to stay in the game. Players will only have that when there is a common focus to fall back on,a game plan, a structure to encourage some semblance of teamwork! Our success was not enough for some people. They started preaching about traditional Cavan football. Flair and pace. What Walter Mitty world do they inhabit. Traditional Cavan football was sending good underage teams out completely disorganized to get beat. Same with the Seniors. Play for a while but give up after letting in a goal or two and pack up. Nice teams but ultimately disinterested when the going gets tough. Looks like we are going back to tradition. We won Ulster in 2011 not because of our traditions. We won it because we were a team. Because of players like Damien Barkley who put their bodies on the line with complete self disregard. Broke a Tyrone forward in two with a legitimate tackle who was through on goal towards the end of the game with us barely ahead. And so broke Tyrone hearts. Broke tradition! There's a line that was trotted out here a lot about the definition of insanity. Was used when complaining about our team structure and wanting to go man for man. Oh the irony." Excellent post. What u say is exactly how it happened yesterday. Started reasonably well but once the tide turned heads did a bit too. In fairness they gave it a good crack at the start of the second half and probably should have scored a goal. Important however to put into context as far as draws go this was as difficult as it gets. This Donegal team won the Ulster minor in 2016 relatively easily but did get exposed defensively and having a lack of a plan B when playing in the AI semi final. However the early signs from yesterday are that these issues have been noted and possibly rectified meaning Cavan could have played one of the countries best sides.
panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2782 - 28/05/2018 16:57:38
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Great...so let's go back to the slow lateral hand passing game that had everyone bored to death.. that will really bring the crowds flocking back...
Sean.66 (Cavan) - Posts: 293 - 28/05/2018 17:30:36
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What I meant by giants i, s Cork u21s looked more ready for Senior football. Yes it was a 1 pt defeat ,but they have 7 or 8 from that team on their Senior panel now. Luke Connolly scored 1- 10 against tip on Saturday. Brian Hurley back after injury,quality forward.
Cavan do tend to have smaller players under age. The forward line yestetday, anyone 6ft that started?
No need for the outraged reaction
FoolsGold (Cavan) - Posts: 2763 - 28/05/2018 17:53:36
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No need for knee jerk reactions. We are third favourites for the All Ireland U20 competition so you were up against a very good team. I don't know what level of preparation Cavan did but Donegal have been doing 5 nights per week for the last few months and serious dedication by all involved. It didn't suit all as there is leaving cert exams etc. with the result that a few removed themselves from the panel.
At U20 level what you want to see is that there 3 - 5 players that can step into the senior panel over the next few years. I think Cavan showed that there was a few players on Sunday that could do that. If you have that every year then you will remain competitive.
Donegal had our starting senior midfielder from last years championship and our senior centre half froward from the league on Sunday. That added with the likes of Peader Mogan and a few others means we have the backbone of another good crop ready to come in to the senor ranks.
The question that Cavan need to answer is why the successful U21 teams haven't transitioned to senior level or have they and they just don't cut it?
Tir Conaill Abu (Donegal) - Posts: 1671 - 28/05/2018 22:59:34
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Replying To FoolsGold: "What I meant by giants i, s Cork u21s looked more ready for Senior football. Yes it was a 1 pt defeat ,but they have 7 or 8 from that team on their Senior panel now. Luke Connolly scored 1- 10 against tip on Saturday. Brian Hurley back after injury,quality forward.
Cavan do tend to have smaller players under age. The forward line yestetday, anyone 6ft that started?
No need for the outraged reaction" The Donegal backline were hardly giants either but lean and athletic like most of the Donegal lads. The only player to really stand out size wise was Jason McGee which was no surprise given he is 6'4 and has been conditioned to play senior football the last 18 months or so.
panamasam (Australia) - Posts: 2782 - 28/05/2018 23:02:34
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Again more fallacies on here. Most lads that age are the same size. There is no big gene in certain counties. And more nonsense about slow lateral hand passing and "flocking crowds" waiting for the day we go man to man.
We won was it 13 U21 Ulster Championship matches on the bounce. Taking Terry Hyland as an example, he won 2 U21 titles, 2 Senior promotions, 2 Junior Leinster titles and an All Ireland Junior title. These cannot be achieved without attacking. And they most certainly cannot be achieved without structure or defense. It only becomes lateral against really good defenses where extra forward quality is needed. I think we have that extra forward quality now but no defensive plan. Opportunity lost.
Crowds don't follow purity like some monocled connoisseurs. They follow teams. They flock to winning teams. Those U21s gave us some of the best days out and restored pride in the Cavan jersey. They did so because above all else they were a team with a plan, a purpose and absolute dedication to the blue jersey. They connected. Had they been sent out half assed and disorganized they would have won nothing. It would have been like pre 2010 and now. Struggling to even win a game.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 29/05/2018 01:44:29
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Replying To panamasam: "Excellent post. What u say is exactly how it happened yesterday. Started reasonably well but once the tide turned heads did a bit too. In fairness they gave it a good crack at the start of the second half and probably should have scored a goal. Important however to put into context as far as draws go this was as difficult as it gets. This Donegal team won the Ulster minor in 2016 relatively easily but did get exposed defensively and having a lack of a plan B when playing in the AI semi final. However the early signs from yesterday are that these issues have been noted and possibly rectified meaning Cavan could have played one of the countries best sides." Yes congratulations. Ye have a fine team same as last year and I really hope you can go a couple of steps further this year. There is no shame in losing to you. But I would like to see if we were organized and getting the max out of ourselves, just how closely we could measure up. That's all.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 29/05/2018 01:51:08
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Again more fallacies on here. Most lads that age are the same size. There is no big gene in certain counties. And more nonsense about slow lateral hand passing and "flocking crowds" waiting for the day we go man to man.
We won was it 13 U21 Ulster Championship matches on the bounce. Taking Terry Hyland as an example, he won 2 U21 titles, 2 Senior promotions, 2 Junior Leinster titles and an All Ireland Junior title. These cannot be achieved without attacking. And they most certainly cannot be achieved without structure or defense. It only becomes lateral against really good defenses where extra forward quality is needed. I think we have that extra forward quality now but no defensive plan. Opportunity lost.
Crowds don't follow purity like some monocled connoisseurs. They follow teams. They flock to winning teams. Those U21s gave us some of the best days out and restored pride in the Cavan jersey. They did so because above all else they were a team with a plan, a purpose and absolute dedication to the blue jersey. They connected. Had they been sent out half assed and disorganized they would have won nothing. It would have been like pre 2010 and now. Struggling to even win a game." "I think we have that extra forward quality now "..........completely untrue. Cavan have a defensive problem alright but your main problem is still a total lack of quality scorers upfront. If you don't accept this fact then you will never even begin to find a solution.
Shelbourne (Monaghan) - Posts: 567 - 29/05/2018 13:50:08
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Replying To Shelbourne: ""I think we have that extra forward quality now "..........completely untrue. Cavan have a defensive problem alright but your main problem is still a total lack of quality scorers upfront. If you don't accept this fact then you will never even begin to find a solution." This is a discussion on the U20s. IMO we have had some good forwards in the last few batches but teams poorly set up. As always with underage players, whether they develop into quality seniors is a different matter.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/05/2018 04:15:40
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Replying To Hardtimes: "This is a discussion on the U20s. IMO we have had some good forwards in the last few batches but teams poorly set up. As always with underage players, whether they develop into quality seniors is a different matter." Quick question how do you develop these forwards from u21 level to Quality seniors ? Who's responsibility is that?
What have we done wrong? How do we fix it?
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 30/05/2018 09:36:10
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i posted this to the wrong thread yesterday somehow, i may aswell leave it in here now
Ok, i wasn't at the game and i'll not put up to know much about our crop of players. one thing i do know is that a large chunk of them are still underage next year and perhaps will be a better set up outfit next year too. they're effectively a year early, they ran into a Donegal team who were ulster champions two years ago in minor and have been putting in huge work. their manager is perhaps a senior manager in waiting and has revolutionised his club Glenswilly. you could possibly be looking at the all Ireland champions and i don't say that with any hesitation.
A lot of people are on here mentioning cavans lack of physicality and i certainly do agree. Cavan have lots of good footballers but lets face it a stone wouldn't go a miss on nearly every one of them. Now is the time for next years u20's to start bulking up. i do feel as though Cavan are behind a lot of the big counties in this regard. I look at Donegals minors and u20's and there is a big difference. they seem to focus on putting on muscle while our lads don't or aren't made do it. maybe they are but they don't want to, and remember if you go into a competition with the work done and you see yourself stronger and fitter than the opposition it breeds huge confidence.
which brings me to my next question/point. the attitude amongst all cavan teams, even the seniors in the first round of the championship seems to be poor. they don't seem to have confidence in themselves which is leading to poor performances. a lot of you will know what it feels like going into a game where your'e not feeling confident. you feel small, you're physically slower, slower to react. these all seem evident in some cavan performances. but why?i don't understand where the link was broken from those u21 teams. I'm thinking back to the u21 final versus Donegal in Armagh. Cavan by no means played excellent but when they got a smell of victory Donegal couldn't stop them. that for me was the mark of a good confident team. where has that gone?
theweanling (Cavan) - Posts: 414 - 30/05/2018 10:23:01
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Replying To Inaroundehouse: "Quick question how do you develop these forwards from u21 level to Quality seniors ? Who's responsibility is that?
What have we done wrong? How do we fix it?" Nothing quick about that question. In short, players themselves, clubs and county setup. The ultimate test is senior championship but unless your team is in the game you'll never find out. In a suffocating high intensity game a one or two point swing is massive. If you're leaking goals you're never going to find out.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/05/2018 12:30:14
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Nothing quick about that question. In short, players themselves, clubs and county setup. The ultimate test is senior championship but unless your team is in the game you'll never find out. In a suffocating high intensity game a one or two point swing is massive. If you're leaking goals you're never going to find out." I'm talking about u21 players that won titles back in 2011/12/13/14. How come they haven't developed in top class players in comparison to players from teams we beat in that grade in that era?
What did we do wrong? Why no major improvement in these players?
After all to give a quick example lads like McKiernan, Clarke , Murray are not playing any better football nowadays than they were at u21 grade.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 30/05/2018 12:54:55
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Why don't you read my post again. And you're now asking a different question. Those players did develop since. McKiernan was midfielder at U21. Clarke full back.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 30/05/2018 15:07:38
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Replying To Inaroundehouse: "I'm talking about u21 players that won titles back in 2011/12/13/14. How come they haven't developed in top class players in comparison to players from teams we beat in that grade in that era?
What did we do wrong? Why no major improvement in these players?
After all to give a quick example lads like McKiernan, Clarke , Murray are not playing any better football nowadays than they were at u21 grade." I'm talking about u21 players that won titles back in 2011/12/13/14. How come they haven't developed in top class players in comparison to players from teams we beat in that grade in that era?
What did we do wrong? Why no major improvement in these players?
After all to give a quick example lads like McKiernan, Clarke , Murray are not playing any better football nowadays than they were at u21 grade.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 611 - 30/05/2018 12:54:55
Not every player is going to develop into a top class player. If that was the case every team in the county would be full of them.
RHF (Cavan) - Posts: 848 - 30/05/2018 15:50:09
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Replying To RHF: "I'm talking about u21 players that won titles back in 2011/12/13/14. How come they haven't developed in top class players in comparison to players from teams we beat in that grade in that era?
What did we do wrong? Why no major improvement in these players?
After all to give a quick example lads like McKiernan, Clarke , Murray are not playing any better football nowadays than they were at u21 grade.
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 611 - 30/05/2018 12:54:55
Not every player is going to develop into a top class player. If that was the case every team in the county would be full of them." Well if you look at the u21 teams we came up against when we were successful , teams like Galway, Dublin, Tyrone , Donegal . They all have at least 1 player who would get on any team in Ireland . Have we 1?
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 30/05/2018 18:44:18
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Replying To Inaroundehouse: "Well if you look at the u21 teams we came up against when we were successful , teams like Galway, Dublin, Tyrone , Donegal . They all have at least 1 player who would get on any team in Ireland . Have we 1?" McVeety?
RHF (Cavan) - Posts: 848 - 30/05/2018 20:00:52
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Replying To Inaroundehouse: "Well if you look at the u21 teams we came up against when we were successful , teams like Galway, Dublin, Tyrone , Donegal . They all have at least 1 player who would get on any team in Ireland . Have we 1?" First off both Galway & Dublin won 2 All Ireland U21's each during this time, also the likes of the Tyrone/Donegal players were moving on to successful teams .In Tyrone's case they had won Ulster in 09/10, were reaching All Ireland semi & quarter finals and playing Div 1, Donegal won Ulster in 2011/12/14 the All Ireland in 2012 and playing Div 1.Their were young lads moving into successful confident outfits and it made the transition from U21 to senior a lot easier on them as they had highly experienced/successful players to learn alongside. Unfortunately for our young lads they had none of this , we were a perennial Div 3 team actually struggling to stay there, winning an odd championship game now an again against ( actually since 1997 we've never beaten Tyrone,Donegal or Derry in the Championship while we've been beaten at least once by all other counties).The senior dressing room our lads were entering had a lot different atmosphere than the likes of Dublin/Donegal etc. Our lads had to learn on their feet, as they say, they had no old successful experience heads to fall back on for advice when things were going wrong on or off the pitch. They've done damn well to get us from the depths of Div 3 to being a team that by 2020 will have spent 6 years in the top two divisions. In Ulster they've being a slight bit unfortunate in losing out by small margins to the eventual winners on a number of occasions. Just to note when Galway beat Mayo a couple of weeks ago in the Connacht championship they had only 2 of their 2011 U21 All Ireland winning team on the panel.
aceofspades (Cavan) - Posts: 256 - 31/05/2018 10:22:24
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Replying To aceofspades: "First off both Galway & Dublin won 2 All Ireland U21's each during this time, also the likes of the Tyrone/Donegal players were moving on to successful teams .In Tyrone's case they had won Ulster in 09/10, were reaching All Ireland semi & quarter finals and playing Div 1, Donegal won Ulster in 2011/12/14 the All Ireland in 2012 and playing Div 1.Their were young lads moving into successful confident outfits and it made the transition from U21 to senior a lot easier on them as they had highly experienced/successful players to learn alongside. Unfortunately for our young lads they had none of this , we were a perennial Div 3 team actually struggling to stay there, winning an odd championship game now an again against ( actually since 1997 we've never beaten Tyrone,Donegal or Derry in the Championship while we've been beaten at least once by all other counties).The senior dressing room our lads were entering had a lot different atmosphere than the likes of Dublin/Donegal etc. Our lads had to learn on their feet, as they say, they had no old successful experience heads to fall back on for advice when things were going wrong on or off the pitch. They've done damn well to get us from the depths of Div 3 to being a team that by 2020 will have spent 6 years in the top two divisions. In Ulster they've being a slight bit unfortunate in losing out by small margins to the eventual winners on a number of occasions. Just to note when Galway beat Mayo a couple of weeks ago in the Connacht championship they had only 2 of their 2011 U21 All Ireland winning team on the panel." reply to aceofspades
By 2020 this senior Cavan team will be in division 3 unless there are drastic changes in every sector of the Cavan set up.
mowbar (Cavan) - Posts: 452 - 31/05/2018 10:41:43
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Replying To mowbar: "reply to aceofspades
By 2020 this senior Cavan team will be in division 3 unless there are drastic changes in every sector of the Cavan set up." I know mowbar. You keep telling us that every year.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 31/05/2018 11:15:50
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