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Replying To kingdom_come: "The key is to keep the league in the calendar and maintain the provinces as a key path to progression.
Phase 1:
National league - run this off on consecutive weekends and drop the minor competitions like McGrath Cup etc
Phase 2:
Run off the provincials as usual with the 2 finalists in each province seeded for Phase 3
Phase 3:
8 groups of 4 (New York/London/Kilkenny could play off for the final position).
Lowest ranked team has home advantage in all 3 games, other teams get 1 home, 2 away.
Pot 1: Top 2 in each province, regardless of league position
Pot 2: Top ranked league teams that did not make the provincial decider
Pot 3: Next level of teams that didn't make the decider
Pot 4: Lowest ranked teams that didn't make the decider
From a quick look at last years league and provincial:
Pot 1: Tipperary, Cork, Mayo, Galway, Meath, Dublin, Donegal, Cavan
Pot 2: Kerry, Tyrone, Monaghan, Roscommon, Armagh, Kildare, Westmeath, Laois
Pot 3 Clare, Fermanagh, Down, Derry, Longford, Offaly, Leitrim, Louth
Pot 4 Limerick, Wicklow, Antrim, Wexford, Carlow, Sligo, Waterford, winner of London/New York/Kilkenny playoff
You could be a division 4 team and end up in a tough group with Dublin and Kerry, or you could end up with Tipperary, Laois, Fermanagh, Sligo. On their day, I reckon any of those 4 could give any of the others a run for it.
This would guarantee everyone 4 summer games, a visit from one or two of the big guns and, with a lucky draw, a possible trip to the Quarter Finals.
In the case of NY, it would mean 6 matches in the big apple should they qualify. Imagine the fun over there if they were welcoming Kilkenny and London for qualifier matches where they could win, then Kerry, Dublin and Derry in the championship
I think it is genius!!" I think this adds too many of the games people don't want to see.
Mismatches like div 4 teams v division 1 teams.
My way of doing it keeps division 4 teams in it and gives them a go at playing division 1 teams but only if they've earned their way there.
League status and provincial performances are rewarded with byes rather than just seeding and every team starting at the same point.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 29/06/2021 18:30:42
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Replying To KillingFields: "But that still means majority of games are played in the worst weather/earliest part of the season and when the other major sports in ireland are being played which doesnt make sense from PR/coverage/media perspective.
why not play league through the summer and have provincial/ireland cups in between the league games like soccer does with fa cup/champions league interspaced between premiershup games or like rugby has european cup in weekends in between pro12.
if you play league through the summer you could have the case where counties are knocked out of their province/all ireland by a county and then have to face them again in the league the following week?
Would make interesting viewing!" You're probably talking 2 league games in each of February, March and April. 1 league round in May. It's getting more of the league into later months. I'm working around the GAA's calendar, where inter-county is designated to be finished by July. I don't see how you can play league all through the summer when the season needs to be over by the end of July.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 29/06/2021 18:35:26
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I would prefer this over a split season
McGo72 (Donegal) - Posts: 67 - 29/06/2021 18:45:46
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Replying To Whammo86: "I think this adds too many of the games people don't want to see.
Mismatches like div 4 teams v division 1 teams.
My way of doing it keeps division 4 teams in it and gives them a go at playing division 1 teams but only if they've earned their way there.
League status and provincial performances are rewarded with byes rather than just seeding and every team starting at the same point." I know what you mean, but we already have division 1 v division 1 mismatches. For the teams in division 4, 3 or 2, I don't imagine they are not necessarily looking to knock off Kerry, Dublin, Mayo or Donegal, but I'm sure they'd be happy to have a go at Kildare, Roscommon and Cork.
kingdom_come (Kerry) - Posts: 76 - 29/06/2021 19:27:31
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Folks I said this a few times and it's unpopular but realistic. Everyone loves this 8 groups of 4 open draw or some variant of it.
The GAA is a business. It needs to maximise money.
Example. Tyrone are draw with…..say, Wicklow, Limerick & Waterford. Away to Wicklow. would attract 3000 thousand. Home to Limerick after beating Wicklow. Might get 5 thousand. Waterford at neutral venue in a dead rubber, 2 men and their dog.
Tyrone play in Ulster championship. Home to Cavan, 10-12 thousand. Donegal in semi at Clones……easily 18-20. Final against Monaghan/Armagh, 20-22 plus.
So nearly scraping 10 thousand with the champs league style format? 50 thousand paying spectators with the Ulster championship.
We have to be smart about things….a lot of this comes down to money.
The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 29/06/2021 20:14:44
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Replying To Whammo86: "You're probably talking 2 league games in each of February, March and April. 1 league round in May. It's getting more of the league into later months. I'm working around the GAA's calendar, where inter-county is designated to be finished by July. I don't see how you can play league all through the summer when the season needs to be over by the end of July." It still means counties play overwhelmingly in the worst weather and when other sports(their biggesr rivals seasons are reaching their climax) it doesnt make sense.
there's good reason few american sports have their seasons messed around that they will finish as american football season finishes as they know they will lose out on crowds, media interest than if its at a different time of the year.
Inter county doesnt need to finish early to allow clubs play as clubs should be playing with inter county players regardless.
you are still proposing for the club championships(90% of players) are held up for inter county.
they should be playing alongside each other
KillingFields (Limerick) - Posts: 3499 - 29/06/2021 20:58:31
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Replying To The_Fridge: "Folks I said this a few times and it's unpopular but realistic. Everyone loves this 8 groups of 4 open draw or some variant of it.
The GAA is a business. It needs to maximise money.
Example. Tyrone are draw with…..say, Wicklow, Limerick & Waterford. Away to Wicklow. would attract 3000 thousand. Home to Limerick after beating Wicklow. Might get 5 thousand. Waterford at neutral venue in a dead rubber, 2 men and their dog.
Tyrone play in Ulster championship. Home to Cavan, 10-12 thousand. Donegal in semi at Clones……easily 18-20. Final against Monaghan/Armagh, 20-22 plus.
So nearly scraping 10 thousand with the champs league style format? 50 thousand paying spectators with the Ulster championship.
We have to be smart about things….a lot of this comes down to money." They aren't known as the Grab All Association for nothing you know, that monikor has been well earned.
AfricanGael (UK) - Posts: 1947 - 29/06/2021 21:04:42
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Replying To The_Fridge: "Folks I said this a few times and it's unpopular but realistic. Everyone loves this 8 groups of 4 open draw or some variant of it.
The GAA is a business. It needs to maximise money.
Example. Tyrone are draw with…..say, Wicklow, Limerick & Waterford. Away to Wicklow. would attract 3000 thousand. Home to Limerick after beating Wicklow. Might get 5 thousand. Waterford at neutral venue in a dead rubber, 2 men and their dog.
Tyrone play in Ulster championship. Home to Cavan, 10-12 thousand. Donegal in semi at Clones……easily 18-20. Final against Monaghan/Armagh, 20-22 plus.
So nearly scraping 10 thousand with the champs league style format? 50 thousand paying spectators with the Ulster championship.
We have to be smart about things….a lot of this comes down to money." Ulster being somewhat competitive isn't really a good excuse for keeping the current structure. Two tiers of 16 with 4 groups of 4. Tyrone would be in Tier 1 and could be in a group with Monaghan, Galway, and Derry. Every game will have meaning because you are either fighting for a quarter final spot or to avoid a relegation play-off.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 29/06/2021 21:13:01
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Replying To KillingFields: "It still means counties play overwhelmingly in the worst weather and when other sports(their biggesr rivals seasons are reaching their climax) it doesnt make sense.
there's good reason few american sports have their seasons messed around that they will finish as american football season finishes as they know they will lose out on crowds, media interest than if its at a different time of the year.
Inter county doesnt need to finish early to allow clubs play as clubs should be playing with inter county players regardless.
you are still proposing for the club championships(90% of players) are held up for inter county.
they should be playing alongside each other" Club players wanted a split season but you obviously know better than them.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 29/06/2021 21:44:21
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Replying To Rolo2010: "Ulster being somewhat competitive isn't really a good excuse for keeping the current structure. Two tiers of 16 with 4 groups of 4. Tyrone would be in Tier 1 and could be in a group with Monaghan, Galway, and Derry. Every game will have meaning because you are either fighting for a quarter final spot or to avoid a relegation play-off." I agree. Things have to change.
But you can replace Tyrone with Mayo. Mayo vs Roscommon…..15 thousand. Mayo Galway in final 20-22 thousand.
80% of funds goes back to the clubs. You drive to any club in Tyrone, be it Div 1 to Div 3, some of the complexes clubs have are unreal. Training pitches, state of the draw gyms, community hubs etc. Do you think that comes from the lotto or bingo. We are talking about million pound facilities in the middle of nowhere in Tyrone. Run of the mill league games attracts, 100-200 odd people, and that's usually the reserve teams hanging around to watch and family of players.
People wonder why the GAA are reluctant to change. This is why. Money.
If you owned a business which is going well, would you change it to please a few people, no you wouldn't. Because it works for you. As I said the GAA is a business.
The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 29/06/2021 21:56:15
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Replying To The_Fridge: "I agree. Things have to change.
But you can replace Tyrone with Mayo. Mayo vs Roscommon…..15 thousand. Mayo Galway in final 20-22 thousand.
80% of funds goes back to the clubs. You drive to any club in Tyrone, be it Div 1 to Div 3, some of the complexes clubs have are unreal. Training pitches, state of the draw gyms, community hubs etc. Do you think that comes from the lotto or bingo. We are talking about million pound facilities in the middle of nowhere in Tyrone. Run of the mill league games attracts, 100-200 odd people, and that's usually the reserve teams hanging around to watch and family of players.
People wonder why the GAA are reluctant to change. This is why. Money.
If you owned a business which is going well, would you change it to please a few people, no you wouldn't. Because it works for you. As I said the GAA is a business." I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
I do think though that you're business does need to move with the times and look at other similar businesses too.
The trend in Provincial championship attendance is negative, whilst the trend in the National league attendances has grown.
Obviously you'd need to do more analysis than that but you would want to explore if there's a reduced casual demand for GAA and a growing devoted fan contingent.
Would the current structures be the best for maximising the demand for Dublin's matches against stronger opponents.
You look at English soccer and it was traditionally the case that the FA cup was a bigger draw than the league fixtures. With the entry of satellite television to the market and the increased exposure of the premier league the average attendances and importance grew to dwarf the cup attendances for similar fixtures.
You look at the GAA and the Munster hurling championship I believe was seeing increased attendance per game in the group based competition compared to the straight knockout.
You also look at the GAA championship, are there just too few fixtures because of the knockout based nature of it. Could there be more money overall through having more games in a more league or group based competition even if average attendance falls.
I don't think it's cut and dry that the provincials are the best long term money earner.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 30/06/2021 09:34:37
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Replying To The_Fridge: "I agree. Things have to change.
But you can replace Tyrone with Mayo. Mayo vs Roscommon…..15 thousand. Mayo Galway in final 20-22 thousand.
80% of funds goes back to the clubs. You drive to any club in Tyrone, be it Div 1 to Div 3, some of the complexes clubs have are unreal. Training pitches, state of the draw gyms, community hubs etc. Do you think that comes from the lotto or bingo. We are talking about million pound facilities in the middle of nowhere in Tyrone. Run of the mill league games attracts, 100-200 odd people, and that's usually the reserve teams hanging around to watch and family of players.
People wonder why the GAA are reluctant to change. This is why. Money.
If you owned a business which is going well, would you change it to please a few people, no you wouldn't. Because it works for you. As I said the GAA is a business." Provincials will be replaced by a new championship structure and the crowds will still come if an All-Ireland is at stake.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 30/06/2021 09:58:14
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Replying To kingdom_come: "I know what you mean, but we already have division 1 v division 1 mismatches. For the teams in division 4, 3 or 2, I don't imagine they are not necessarily looking to knock off Kerry, Dublin, Mayo or Donegal, but I'm sure they'd be happy to have a go at Kildare, Roscommon and Cork." For me the big thing is that is there any point to the loser of say a 3rd seeded Antrim v 4th seeded Waterford going on to then play a 2nd seeded Meath and 1st seeded Tyrone say. I don't really think there is. Put the winner through, cut the loser and just streamline the competition.
4 team groups are rubbish in the GAA where there's few draws and a limited number of outcomes to the first couple of rounds. The super 8s showed off how rubbish 4 team groups are if it's just 2 through and 2 out. That's with teams evenly matched. I just don't think we need a lot of the games that format would include.
It's not free either to add an extra 2 rounds of potential action, you kind of need to push the league forward 3 weeks to fit in the extra fixtures. I think we should be targeting making the leagues more attractive and growing them further.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 30/06/2021 16:37:59
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Replying To Whammo86: "For me the big thing is that is there any point to the loser of say a 3rd seeded Antrim v 4th seeded Waterford going on to then play a 2nd seeded Meath and 1st seeded Tyrone say. I don't really think there is. Put the winner through, cut the loser and just streamline the competition.
4 team groups are rubbish in the GAA where there's few draws and a limited number of outcomes to the first couple of rounds. The super 8s showed off how rubbish 4 team groups are if it's just 2 through and 2 out. That's with teams evenly matched. I just don't think we need a lot of the games that format would include.
It's not free either to add an extra 2 rounds of potential action, you kind of need to push the league forward 3 weeks to fit in the extra fixtures. I think we should be targeting making the leagues more attractive and growing them further." 4 team groups are not rubbish. A tier 1 competition will have counties competing for a quarter final place or to avoid a relegation final. You can just have a shield competition for 3rd placed teams in Tier 2 to eliminate dead rubbers.
Rolo2010 (Donegal) - Posts: 738 - 30/06/2021 17:21:44
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Replying To Rolo2010: "4 team groups are not rubbish. A tier 1 competition will have counties competing for a quarter final place or to avoid a relegation final. You can just have a shield competition for 3rd placed teams in Tier 2 to eliminate dead rubbers." Yeah, that's why I clarified 2 through 2 out. Relegation for bottom teams adds something there but it's not a feature of the super 8 or the proposed 8 groups of 4 teams.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4210 - 30/06/2021 17:38:29
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Replying To Whammo86: "I don't think the GAA needs to reinvent the wheel too much.
I think everyone wants to keep the provincials, the national leagues are great the way they are.
The All Ireland needs to be a bit more balanced because of the lopsided nature of the provincials.
Play the National league and Provincials in parallel from February to May.
Play a seeded All Ireland championship which is a bit more streamlined than the qualifiers.
16 team round 1: 8 Provincial finalists plus best 8 others from the league get a bye. Can be played at the same time as Provincial finals.
Round 2: 16 teams: 4 provincial champions plus 4 best from the league get byes. 8 round 1 winners and 8 remaining teams play in this round.
Round 3: Last 16 organised on an All Ireland basis.
Provincials remain part of the All Ireland but to a lesser degree than now.
League becomes more important.
No need for a tier 2 competition because the leagues get played all the way up to May and are given more prominence." I mostly like this approach. For better incentive, I would just re-jig league seedings a little.
Rd 1 - 14 non-Prov Finalists and based on bottom recent NFL placings across the divs (0, 2, 6, 6).
Rd 3 byes - 7 teams, incl 4 Prov Champs, plus 3 other top recent NFL placings across the divs (1, 2, 0, 0).
Rd 2 byes - other 11 teams (likely, 3, 4, 2, 2).
omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 03/07/2021 18:45:18
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