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Replying To valley84: "Most 17 year olds don't get enough games!
Most went into a junior B team and got a few league games
I hope this is passed at congress" Propose more under 17 games to your county board.
These problems are very easily fixed without touching a perfectly sensible rule.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 10/02/2017 21:36:42
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It wasn't that long ago that I was asked to play senior when I was at minor, I was also playing junior B when I shouldn't, having done it myself, 100% agree 17 year olds shouldn't be forced into playing senior, we lost at least 2 quality footballers for a year and a half because they were asked to do too much with school, minor, senior,etc and I'm sure this isn't isolated.
Before anyway tries to argue I come from a VERY small club that usually struggles to start and end seasons with full teams and I still think this way. It's not fair to put pressure on children that they are letting their club down and that's exactly what we all do.
Iamlegion666 (Monaghan) - Posts: 285 - 10/02/2017 22:13:55
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The problem with playing an extra u/17 competition is a lot of clubs will have to play 14, 15 and 16 year olds to field teams, invariably these are the better players who are on dev squads, good at soccer, rugby etc. It's another example of a proposal where the consequences weren't considered. . Like a lot of recent rule changes this has a far greater effect on smaller clubs
lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts: 429 - 10/02/2017 22:14:58
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Replying To Whammo86: "Propose more under 17 games to your county board.
These problems are very easily fixed without touching a perfectly sensible rule." It's not always that simple for rural clubs, and yes, small rural clubs exist in Dublin too. As it stands my club are already involved in an amalgamation with another club to field underage teams, and even between us we only have 14 minors altogether for this year, so no team. If these lads can't play a bit of junior football we are basically saying to them, go away, play soccer or rugby or whatever you like for the next year, and hope they come back when we need them.
People are talking about needing this to prevent 'burnout', but the type of players I'm talking about won't be on county minor teams or college teams, similar to the vast majority of the players this proposed amendment is aimed at. Yet again a rule brought in to cater for the elite 5% of players in the GAA is likely to have a long lasting and detrimental effect on the game at grass roots level, and quiet possibly lose far more players from our games than burnout ever would.
AHP (Dublin) - Posts: 323 - 10/02/2017 23:12:34
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Replying To lillyboy: "The problem with playing an extra u/17 competition is a lot of clubs will have to play 14, 15 and 16 year olds to field teams, invariably these are the better players who are on dev squads, good at soccer, rugby etc. It's another example of a proposal where the consequences weren't considered. . Like a lot of recent rule changes this has a far greater effect on smaller clubs" I see what you're saying. Everyone up to u16 can play up and then u17s can't.
I felt the GAA missed a trick last year when they altered the grades.
I think the intercounty minor and under 21 grades should've been merged into an under 19 level.
Under 19 is roughly first year University level. It's the perfect time to have a real juvenile competition, where the players have that little bit more time, are less likely to be playing Sigerson or Senior intercounty. It's also the age where players can get lost to the game.
If at club level there could also be an u19 grade for u17s to play up into it would be a good solution.
A proper u19 grade may also make it easier to retain players into adulthood reducing the need to play u17s.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 11/02/2017 08:03:30
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Replying To Whammo86: "Propose more under 17 games to your county board.
These problems are very easily fixed without touching a perfectly sensible rule." Easier said than done
If there are only 8 minor hurling teams, there's only a certain amount of games they can play
valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 11/02/2017 10:05:48
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The biggest area of dropout in the GAA is 16-21
And GAA has basically stopped 17 yearokds from playing a lot of games
It doesn't make sense
Joe Canning would never have been able to win his first club All Ireland with Portumna...
valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts: 1890 - 11/02/2017 10:08:00
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There should probably be an under 19 grade that is given proper respect. Get rid of u20/21. Under 19 should be considered minor rather than u17 and get good quality competitions to bridge the gap between juvenile and senior.
Under 20/21 is probably needed less since those players can be playing senior. It's a bit of an inconvenience really. That's shown in its place in the calendar. Shunted in at the start of the year for intercounty and put back to the end of the year at club level.
Under 19 is an age where people are under fewer demands. You're talking no leaving cert, first year of college which is kind of designed to be a bit of a breather. I'd say it's the age where we're most likely to lose players as they've left school and gone to college or started working.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 11/02/2017 12:01:08
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Replying To ormondbannerman: "FAIR play to the Monasterevin GAA club in Kildare, who'll be brining a motion to Congress seeking the overturning of the ban on 17-year-olds playing adult matches which was brought in last year. Club secretary Dominic Stapleton says the motion "has had a detrimental effect on small/rural clubs throughout the country. I have engaged with numerous club administrators and members in a lot of counties and everyone agreed that this made the survival of the rural GAA club even more challenging than it had traditionally been. Some see it as potentially being the straw to break the camel's back." He's right. Monasterevin's motion was passed unanimously at the Kildare Convention and a similar motion by the Courtwood club in Laois met with the same result at the Laois Convention. Anyone with any interest in the plight of the GAA's smaller clubs should get behind these motions and make sure they're passed at Congress. The original ban was a classic piece of Politically Correct piety, and if the motion is passed it will be a declaration that these clubs, rather than the Croke Park hierarchy know what is best for their future. Who could disagree with that? Breffnisbest (Cavan) - Posts:289 - 08/02/2017 13:25:53Why is this motion needed. If clubs cant field open age adult teams without 17 year olds then they have a lot of issues within their own club they need to sort out not any change to regulations that exist to prevent burnout amongst many players at this age. What age should you be playing adult level then?
We already have too many 17/18 year olds playing minor/u21/junior or senior and the same again in hurling. Then they may be on school teams by 2 and if theyre a county player another team... when is enough enough?
The original law was grand if you were Kilmacud Crokes or some other super club in Dublin but it was the death knell for a number of second teams in rural Ireland last year....like something Fine Gael would come up with to finish off rural Ireland!
hurler32 (Limerick) - Posts:759 - 08/02/2017 14:20:39 Every club bar maybe 1 or 2 in North Tipp fields 2 teams and this ruling wont change that and most clubs field 3 and some field 4. This ruling wont change that and helps protect some younger players from playing too high a level too early.
Totally agree, I know some clubs in Dublin that don't have super club status and this did affect them, god only knows how hard it was felt in rural areas
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts:3661 - 08/02/2017 14:45:18Whats the alternative? And what would you do otherwise?
It is a ridiculous rule. Even a 16 year old can play soccer in the English Premiership.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts:624 - 08/02/2017 15:28:50But thats completely different. A 17 year not playing adult hurling/gaelic will also be in school and possibly on county teams and playing u21. A 16 year kid can premiership soccer will be a pro first of all which is very different and wont be playing on 6/7 different teams.
I don't agree with the consensus here. If a club can't field teams with players out of u17 then you know what maybe it just shouldn't have a team.
I think the well being of young players is more important than the limping on of some clubs.
A line has to be drawn at some point. A lot of under 17s are capable of playing adult but a lot aren't. I've seen plenty of instances in the past of players being fielded to make up numbers who simply should not having been on the pitch. I know the precise age is arbitrary but it has to be drawn somewhere. With minor now being under 17 it makes sense that's the age.
More consolidation of clubs might be a good thing in rural counties. Would increase the average standard.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1282 - 08/02/2017 16:40:19spot on" Use the reply button please. It's a mess trying to read that post.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts: 4971 - 11/02/2017 12:18:00
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Isn't it amazing that an U19 can play senior intercounty but an U18 can't play U21 intercounty?
keeper7 (Longford) - Posts: 4088 - 11/02/2017 12:50:41
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It's a ridiculous rule. I started an intermediate co final at 16. I was at that level at that stage. Nothing wrong at all with a young guy playing adult if he's ready for it.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts: 2550 - 11/02/2017 13:46:43
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Replying To icehonesty: "It's a ridiculous rule. I started an intermediate co final at 16. I was at that level at that stage. Nothing wrong at all with a young guy playing adult if he's ready for it." No there isn't, but the rule isn't for them , it's to stop younger lads being pressured into playing when they AREN'T ready. I was ready to play senior while at minor, my brother wasn't(and he's better than myself by a mile)
Iamlegion666 (Monaghan) - Posts: 285 - 11/02/2017 14:36:57
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I can't see how a 17 year old boy is mentally and physically equipped to play a full adult GAA game it is just not right, especially with the shoulder charge and the effects of that type of tackle on the brain. I think it as an organisation they'd be taken to the cleaners (and rightly so) if anything went went. Girls on the other hand is different they are fully grown at 17 and both are nominally non-contact (as is soccer) it is quite common in Ladies Football and Camogie to see 16/17 year old girls playing the Senior game at both club and county. But boys/men - and given the type of tackling it is a dangerous idea.
arock (Dublin) - Posts: 4896 - 11/02/2017 19:32:08
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Replying To arock: "I can't see how a 17 year old boy is mentally and physically equipped to play a full adult GAA game it is just not right, especially with the shoulder charge and the effects of that type of tackle on the brain. I think it as an organisation they'd be taken to the cleaners (and rightly so) if anything went went. Girls on the other hand is different they are fully grown at 17 and both are nominally non-contact (as is soccer) it is quite common in Ladies Football and Camogie to see 16/17 year old girls playing the Senior game at both club and county. But boys/men - and given the type of tackling it is a dangerous idea." The GAA are really a strange crowd.
We have a huge drop out rate of players between minor and u21. That applies to every club city and rural clubs, junior and senior, everywhere.
Everywhere there is a handy young lad who could mix it with at adult level (most likely junior and sometimes senior). That still doesn't make it a good idea to let him out there when he is already playing minor, schools, u21 for the club and likely some bit of county development squad or county minor (not to mention also at some other sport too).
It's fair to say that in professional sports you can play adult at 17 but they stop you playing all the underage stuff if you are playing adult level.
I would be in favour of limiting all players to three teams only and training exclusively with one. No doubt they naysayers will all shout no, burn them out I say.
Only in the Gaa can you have a average - decent Club U21 player only get 4 games a year for 1 team while a good u17 has to play for six teams
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1109 - 12/02/2017 04:58:29
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "The GAA are really a strange crowd.
We have a huge drop out rate of players between minor and u21. That applies to every club city and rural clubs, junior and senior, everywhere.
Everywhere there is a handy young lad who could mix it with at adult level (most likely junior and sometimes senior). That still doesn't make it a good idea to let him out there when he is already playing minor, schools, u21 for the club and likely some bit of county development squad or county minor (not to mention also at some other sport too).
It's fair to say that in professional sports you can play adult at 17 but they stop you playing all the underage stuff if you are playing adult level.
I would be in favour of limiting all players to three teams only and training exclusively with one. No doubt they naysayers will all shout no, burn them out I say.
Only in the Gaa can you have a average - decent Club U21 player only get 4 games a year for 1 team while a good u17 has to play for six teams" this rule only caters for the 5% of 17 year olds who are good enough to make the adult starting team
most 17 year olds would be introduced to a clubs second or third team and given plenty of league games to develop
they can play adult soccer for their local club at 17, I don't see why it should be different in the GAA
most minor players get very few games in a season
manfromdelmonte (UK) - Posts: 541 - 12/02/2017 10:15:27
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it's one of the good rules. Kids (and yes, they are still kids) shouldn't be open to the pressure of having to play against grown men just because a small percentage of 17 year olds are physically ready. Whoever it was who brought up the premiership analogy is very wrong: two massively different sports.
Gavvygavgav (Dublin) - Posts: 382 - 12/02/2017 10:41:37
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Have to agree with the ruling, 17 is not classed as an adult even in legal terms. Nothing to do with northern counties bringing in silly rules but an attempt to try to protect younger players who are being pulled from pillar to post if they are a skilful player and even more so if a dual player. If clubs are worried about fielding senior teams then I would suggest that getting the rule on team numbers would be a better way to go and if clubs can't field 13 players then it's time to pull the team and look about temporary adult team amalgamation until sufficient numbers are available. Plenty of clubs up and down the country amalgamate at youth level to get lads games.
bulmccabe (Tyrone) - Posts:70 - 09/02/2017 02:36:23 Yep. In a lot of clubs across the country guys who are any bit talented as u17s can be playing club minor, 21 and on a junior team. Then if theyre stronger they can be on club senior team as well as inter county sides.
You are spot on. People keep saying without these 17 year olds teams wont be able to field. That couldn't be true as there would be 4/5 coming through year on year and if they cant field without 17 year olds then there is issues within clubs.
Amalgamate if you cant field on your own solves a lot of issues.
I love to be involved with some of your clubs loads of players but I live in the real world where the gaa is on its last legs and we are trying to keep it going but the big clubs say you can't play a 17 player so your logic says Its the clubs fault the other 14 lads should go off and not play big thanks,but I'm I have faith the gaa will make the right call
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:133 - 10/02/2017 14:40:18How many clubs only have 15 players for an adult team??? If they've so few they should only be playing 12/13 a side. Is the GAA really on its last legs???
The problem with playing an extra u/17 competition is a lot of clubs will have to play 14, 15 and 16 year olds to field teams, invariably these are the better players who are on dev squads, good at soccer, rugby etc. It's another example of a proposal where the consequences weren't considered. . Like a lot of recent rule changes this has a far greater effect on smaller clubs
lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts:324 - 10/02/2017 22:14:58Will there be clubs asking 14 year olds to play under 17? Is there not rules to prevent kids playing "up" on too many teams to prevent burnout???
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 12/02/2017 14:41:27
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Have to agree with the ruling, 17 is not classed as an adult even in legal terms. Nothing to do with northern counties bringing in silly rules but an attempt to try to protect younger players who are being pulled from pillar to post if they are a skilful player and even more so if a dual player. If clubs are worried about fielding senior teams then I would suggest that getting the rule on team numbers would be a better way to go and if clubs can't field 13 players then it's time to pull the team and look about temporary adult team amalgamation until sufficient numbers are available. Plenty of clubs up and down the country amalgamate at youth level to get lads games.
bulmccabe (Tyrone) - Posts:70 - 09/02/2017 02:36:23 Yep. In a lot of clubs across the country guys who are any bit talented as u17s can be playing club minor, 21 and on a junior team. Then if theyre stronger they can be on club senior team as well as inter county sides.
You are spot on. People keep saying without these 17 year olds teams wont be able to field. That couldn't be true as there would be 4/5 coming through year on year and if they cant field without 17 year olds then there is issues within clubs.
Amalgamate if you cant field on your own solves a lot of issues.
I love to be involved with some of your clubs loads of players but I live in the real world where the gaa is on its last legs and we are trying to keep it going but the big clubs say you can't play a 17 player so your logic says Its the clubs fault the other 14 lads should go off and not play big thanks,but I'm I have faith the gaa will make the right call
cityman73 (Limerick) - Posts:133 - 10/02/2017 14:40:18How many clubs only have 15 players for an adult team??? If they've so few they should only be playing 12/13 a side. Is the GAA really on its last legs???
The problem with playing an extra u/17 competition is a lot of clubs will have to play 14, 15 and 16 year olds to field teams, invariably these are the better players who are on dev squads, good at soccer, rugby etc. It's another example of a proposal where the consequences weren't considered. . Like a lot of recent rule changes this has a far greater effect on smaller clubs
lillyboy (Kildare) - Posts:324 - 10/02/2017 22:14:58Will there be clubs asking 14 year olds to play under 17? Is there not rules to prevent kids playing "up" on too many teams to prevent burnout???
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 12/02/2017 14:41:54
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It's not always that simple for rural clubs, and yes, small rural clubs exist in Dublin too. As it stands my club are already involved in an amalgamation with another club to field underage teams, and even between us we only have 14 minors altogether for this year, so no team. If these lads can't play a bit of junior football we are basically saying to them, go away, play soccer or rugby or whatever you like for the next year, and hope they come back when we need them.
People are talking about needing this to prevent 'burnout', but the type of players I'm talking about won't be on county minor teams or college teams, similar to the vast majority of the players this proposed amendment is aimed at. Yet again a rule brought in to cater for the elite 5% of players in the GAA is likely to have a long lasting and detrimental effect on the game at grass roots level, and quiet possibly lose far more players from our games than burnout ever would.
AHP (Dublin) - Posts:176 - 10/02/2017 23:12:34 If you only have 14 minors then look for the creation of a 13 a side competition or talk to another club for an amalgamation? Does the GAA allow loan deals for a season? I played u21 rugby in a limerick city club on loan from nenagh one season when we couldn't field at 21s. I could still play adult level with nenagh but was able to play 21s rugby.
This ruling prevents players playing too high a level too soon.. Its a good thing.
The biggest area of dropout in the GAA is 16-21
And GAA has basically stopped 17 yearokds from playing a lot of games
It doesn't make sense
Joe Canning would never have been able to win his first club All Ireland with Portumna...
valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts:1199 - 11/02/2017 10:08:00Way too many kids play adult gaa all too soon. You change the under 17 competition to provide way more games if you stop them playing adult games. Joe Canning would have been prevented from that but he also would have been saved a huge amount from issues that can arise from playing and training too much at a young age.
Use the reply button please. It's a mess trying to read that post.
gotmilk (Fermanagh) - Posts:4036 - 11/02/2017 12:18:00You cant multi quote and it all appears in a different colour for me so how is it a mess when my replies are a different colour to other posts.
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 12/02/2017 14:48:55
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It's a ridiculous rule. I started an intermediate co final at 16. I was at that level at that stage. Nothing wrong at all with a young guy playing adult if he's ready for it.
icehonesty (Wexford) - Posts:2005 - 11/02/2017 13:46:43But at what stage do you say enough is enough? There is an awful lot of kids playing adult grade at 16 when not ready physically or mentally. Moving to 17 and changing minor to 17s allows better management of more players.
I can't see how a 17 year old boy is mentally and physically equipped to play a full adult GAA game it is just not right, especially with the shoulder charge and the effects of that type of tackle on the brain. I think it as an organisation they'd be taken to the cleaners (and rightly so) if anything went went. Girls on the other hand is different they are fully grown at 17 and both are nominally non-contact (as is soccer) it is quite common in Ladies Football and Camogie to see 16/17 year old girls playing the Senior game at both club and county. But boys/men - and given the type of tackling it is a dangerous idea.
arock (Dublin) - Posts:3182 - 11/02/2017 19:32:08There will be plenty of 17 year olds physically and mentally ready to play full adult games. 17 year olds can be at their full adult size and be ready for the game but 17 is better than 16 and I don't see a need for it change anything other than 17.
The GAA are really a strange crowd.
We have a huge drop out rate of players between minor and u21. That applies to every club city and rural clubs, junior and senior, everywhere.
Everywhere there is a handy young lad who could mix it with at adult level (most likely junior and sometimes senior). That still doesn't make it a good idea to let him out there when he is already playing minor, schools, u21 for the club and likely some bit of county development squad or county minor (not to mention also at some other sport too).
It's fair to say that in professional sports you can play adult at 17 but they stop you playing all the underage stuff if you are playing adult level.
I would be in favour of limiting all players to three teams only and training exclusively with one. No doubt they naysayers will all shout no, burn them out I say.
Only in the Gaa can you have a average - decent Club U21 player only get 4 games a year for 1 team while a good u17 has to play for six teams
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts:612 - 12/02/2017 04:58:29 An average-decent club u21 player will be playing junior grade at some level for their club and if not then there is something wrong with a club. There is a huge drop out in all sports between minor and u21 and this ruling wont change that or alter anything about that.
Limiting players to three teams isn't necessary but limiting the times you train is a must and you cant expect someone to solely train with one team.
this rule only caters for the 5% of 17 year olds who are good enough to make the adult starting team
most 17 year olds would be introduced to a clubs second or third team and given plenty of league games to develop
they can play adult soccer for their local club at 17, I don't see why it should be different in the GAA
most minor players get very few games in a season
manfromdelmonte (UK) - Posts:409 - 12/02/2017 10:15:27Don't know about you and your club but there is a lot of minors who play on my clubs junior A's/B's or C's and are nowhere near the senior side in the parish. Is this rule only about senior/first team grade or is it all levels?
You can play adult soccer at 16 while you have to be 18 to play adult rugby...
ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 12/02/2017 15:01:34
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