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I really cant see what all the fuss is about.
The championship was at its most competitive when there was a div 1a and div 1b when more teams were exposed to playing the top teams regularly.
The top team are pulling away because they play a higher standard in the league and more games in the summer.
You can't improve playing 2-3 matches in may/June and then waiting till Feb for a league match. Players in weaker counties lose interest and are too well educated these days to put up with it.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 09/08/2017 04:22:55
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There is a simple solution
First fix the league:
1. Spilt up league based on championship performance from previous year.
2. Div 1a and 1b as a mix of the last 12 split in 2 groups (split equally no a div1 and div2 in disguise like in the hurling leagues). Only play a final to decide league winner
3. Have div 2a and 2b from the next 12 and div 3 from the bottom
4. Played Feb and March - finals on St Patrick's day (no div 3 final)
5. Players return to clubs for April
Then fix the provincials:
1. Seeded draw based on league performance - but home draws for div 3 counties unless the meet each other in early rounds
2. Run them off over 5 weeks max
3. Played in May to Mid June
Fix the all Ireland series:
1. Group stages tiered based on provincial results
2. Tier 1: (super 12) - 3 weeks to play off finished in mid July
(a) 3 groups of 4
(b) provincial finalists plus best prov semi finalists based on final league position
(c) top 2 in each group reach all Ireland q final
3. Tier 2: (intermediate championship) - 4 weeks to play starts mid June
(a) 4 groups of 3
(b) semis and final to get winner
(c) winner enters all Ireland q final
4. Tier 3: Tommy Murphy Cup - 5 weeks to play in June and July
(a) teams who lose first championship match with worst league record (bottom div 2 and div 3)
(b) 2 groups of 4
(c) semis and final
(d) winner enters all Ireland q final
All teams playing meaningful matches until end June
75% interested until mid July
Alternative is to move provincials to Oct/Nov and keep April and May free for clubs.
Playing county and club provincials at the same time is easily done as it would only effect 2-3 players from the strongest clubs in the strongest counties. Most strong counties (Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Cork, Galway, Tyrone) aren't to bothered about provincial intercounty medals anymore
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 09/08/2017 05:04:35
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Nothing simple with that suggestion.
Teams play uneven number of games. 12 games for some teams to reach AI Final. Segregating teams and treating them like lepers. A lower division team get one shot in the championship and then you dump them into the Tommy Murphy Cup so they don't stink up the joint. That went down like a lead balloon in 07, why do you think it would work again? Smaller counties need to be listened to if a solution is to be found. If you can't really see what all the fuss is about then you will certainly not provide a solution.
The Championship was more competitive when counties were less professional and there was a smaller gulf in funding and resources. You cannot address that to a certain extend but you can cater for the weaker counties with a meaningful competition. But dumping the bottom teams into a mickey mouse competition is insulting. From teams ranked 10 down the gap is not so big that you need to do that. A simple solution like the one I suggested would achieve this but also give teams a chance at something better if they happen to hit a purple year.
The big teams will most certainly care about a provincial medal if a place in an AI semi is also at stake.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 09/08/2017 10:32:17
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Nothing simple with that suggestion.
Teams play uneven number of games. 12 games for some teams to reach AI Final. Segregating teams and treating them like lepers. A lower division team get one shot in the championship and then you dump them into the Tommy Murphy Cup so they don't stink up the joint. That went down like a lead balloon in 07, why do you think it would work again? Smaller counties need to be listened to if a solution is to be found. If you can't really see what all the fuss is about then you will certainly not provide a solution.
The Championship was more competitive when counties were less professional and there was a smaller gulf in funding and resources. You cannot address that to a certain extend but you can cater for the weaker counties with a meaningful competition. But dumping the bottom teams into a mickey mouse competition is insulting. From teams ranked 10 down the gap is not so big that you need to do that. A simple solution like the one I suggested would achieve this but also give teams a chance at something better if they happen to hit a purple year.
The big teams will most certainly care about a provincial medal if a place in an AI semi is also at stake." Did you actually read what I typed?
Teams would have 3 chances to get to a higher seeding and therefore improve themselves.
A good league earns a better seeding for the provincials
A good provincial campaign gains entry to a higher tier of the All Ireland
Winning either of the lower tiers gains entry to the senior q finals.
Counties already turned down the idea of moving provinces.
tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 09/08/2017 22:46:44
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Replying To Hardtimes: "Scrap the Provincials in their current form.
4 Regional Competitions of 8/9 teams each.
Northern Championship, Western Championship, Eastern Championship, Southern Championship.
Open draw but you don't have to play everyone. Say only 3-4 games in the regional group stages.
After this straight knockout in regional semi-finals and final- 1 v 4, 2 v 3.
AI semi-finals is the winner of each region.
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Teams outside top 4 in each region compete in B Championship.
Regional B semi-finals straight knockout, 5 v 8, 6 v 7.
All Ireland B semi-finals is the winner of each B region." In my opinion is like to see the championship scrapped totally.
Replaced by the league. Not the Spring league we know where it's a place for new players, tactics etc but a real league that is the ultimate prize.
Keep is the same as the current league. Then have the division final with the top two teams in each division as it is now but then have overall finals between all divisions.Also have every team play each other twice home and away. Double the number of games . So maybe at times two games every five days. No need for crazy breaks. League structure is perfect if it was just the main competition. Not the second trial comp it currently is. It's fair for all counties. Chance for everyone to progress and win something but then also lets upsets be possible with over all finals eg Div 1 winners v Div 4 winners then 2v3 and winners of both in the grand final
GameOfTyrones (Tyrone) - Posts: 469 - 09/08/2017 23:55:06
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "Did you actually read what I typed?
Teams would have 3 chances to get to a higher seeding and therefore improve themselves.
A good league earns a better seeding for the provincials
A good provincial campaign gains entry to a higher tier of the All Ireland
Winning either of the lower tiers gains entry to the senior q finals.
Counties already turned down the idea of moving provinces." I've read it several times and hard to make sense of it.
Ok, I didn't see where the Tommy Murphy winners re-enter, fair enough, but still lob-sided. Top dogs enter quarters and have a nice rest for a few weeks. Possibly meet a team playing for 6 weeks on the trot. Can see massive fixtures headaches.
Super 12 is a bit of a stretch too. The problem with football is not at the bottom. The problem is at the top. Why the need for segregating weaker teams. Truth be told if the top 4 were segregated it would be a terrific championship where anyone could beat anyone and smaller counties would be more than capable of holding their own. Any team is only a couple of additions player wise from leapfrogging others in the rankings. It's time the Championship was restructured with this in mind. Giving weaker counties literally nothing to play for in the Championship has gone on long enough. Being fed the constant narrative that they need to go away and work harder is insulting. They are working as hard as they can. Lob siding the structure for the top teams is unnecessary because no matter how you do it they will be there at the shake up anyway.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 10/08/2017 11:06:32
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Replying To GameOfTyrones: "In my opinion is like to see the championship scrapped totally.
Replaced by the league. Not the Spring league we know where it's a place for new players, tactics etc but a real league that is the ultimate prize.
Keep is the same as the current league. Then have the division final with the top two teams in each division as it is now but then have overall finals between all divisions.Also have every team play each other twice home and away. Double the number of games . So maybe at times two games every five days. No need for crazy breaks. League structure is perfect if it was just the main competition. Not the second trial comp it currently is. It's fair for all counties. Chance for everyone to progress and win something but then also lets upsets be possible with over all finals eg Div 1 winners v Div 4 winners then 2v3 and winners of both in the grand final" I think Championship needs to be main competition. People love straight knockout and everyone likes the ides of a David v Goliath scenario every once in a while. There's a reason why Championship has been the most popular competition.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 10/08/2017 11:18:33
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If you're having a second tier competition you could just have 4 groups of 8. Top 4 from each into Sam Maguire cup bottom 4 into Paidi O'Se cup.
Those cups can be straight knockout or 4 groups of 4.
Paidi O'Se cup will be important for seeding teams the following year.
Each group should have 1 Sam Maguire semi finalist, 1 quarter finalist, 2 last 16 teams, 1 Paidi O'Se semi finalist etc.
Regionalise the groups as much as possible whilst still keep the seedlings intact.
Paidi O'Se cup teams play to improve their seeding for the following season and once they hit the semifinals they are just 2 games away from a trophy.
There will still be mismatches where weak teams play top teams but these will be confined to the start of the season.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 10/08/2017 12:58:08
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Replying To tirawleybaron: "I really cant see what all the fuss is about.
The championship was at its most competitive when there was a div 1a and div 1b when more teams were exposed to playing the top teams regularly.
The top team are pulling away because they play a higher standard in the league and more games in the summer.
You can't improve playing 2-3 matches in may/June and then waiting till Feb for a league match. Players in weaker counties lose interest and are too well educated these days to put up with it." This is spot on.
So-called 'weaker' counties need more games at the right level. Provincial Championships are holding back any progress on this.
opa01 (Cavan) - Posts: 500 - 10/08/2017 13:12:14
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Replying To Whammo86: "If you're having a second tier competition you could just have 4 groups of 8. Top 4 from each into Sam Maguire cup bottom 4 into Paidi O'Se cup.
Those cups can be straight knockout or 4 groups of 4.
Paidi O'Se cup will be important for seeding teams the following year.
Each group should have 1 Sam Maguire semi finalist, 1 quarter finalist, 2 last 16 teams, 1 Paidi O'Se semi finalist etc.
Regionalise the groups as much as possible whilst still keep the seedlings intact.
Paidi O'Se cup teams play to improve their seeding for the following season and once they hit the semifinals they are just 2 games away from a trophy.
There will still be mismatches where weak teams play top teams but these will be confined to the start of the season." "If you're having a second tier competition you could just have 4 groups of 8. Top 4 from each into Sam Maguire cup bottom 4 into Paidi O'Se cup."
Whammo, that's exactly the structure I proposed in my opening post. Teams play 3-4 group games decided by random draw (no need for 7 games). Then you're into straight knockout with regional semi-finals for both A and B competition.
You don't need to seed from previous years or competitions, the seeding is in the initial 3-4 group games. Teams' fortunes can vary dramatically from year to year because of countless factors so it's a better way of gauging teams current ability IMO.
You're not making provincial councils redundant either so better chance of getting it agreed on.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 10/08/2017 13:20:49
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Replying To opa01: "This is spot on.
So-called 'weaker' counties need more games at the right level. Provincial Championships are holding back any progress on this." Roscommon have been playing Division 1 for 2 years. Monaghan 4th year running in 2018. Cavan beat Mayo in the league this year and drew with Kerry. Kildare and Galway promotion to Division 1. Armagh stuck in Division 3. None of this was refected in the Championship. Top teams are pulling away because they have the resources. They can cover 20 spots in their squad with top class inter county footballers. The rest carry passengers and rely too much on certain talismen. I don't mean passenger to be derogatory. They are very talented footballers in their own right but in terms of competing with the top, they are passengers.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 10/08/2017 13:46:58
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Replying To opa01: "This is spot on.
So-called 'weaker' counties need more games at the right level. Provincial Championships are holding back any progress on this." Provincial championships will never be got rid of because they are a money spinner for the provincial councils . End off!
Inaroundehouse (Cavan) - Posts: 975 - 10/08/2017 15:20:46
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Replying To Hardtimes: ""If you're having a second tier competition you could just have 4 groups of 8. Top 4 from each into Sam Maguire cup bottom 4 into Paidi O'Se cup."
Whammo, that's exactly the structure I proposed in my opening post. Teams play 3-4 group games decided by random draw (no need for 7 games). Then you're into straight knockout with regional semi-finals for both A and B competition.
You don't need to seed from previous years or competitions, the seeding is in the initial 3-4 group games. Teams' fortunes can vary dramatically from year to year because of countless factors so it's a better way of gauging teams current ability IMO.
You're not making provincial councils redundant either so better chance of getting it agreed on." I was just thinking of a way of mixing league with championship.
As I say there's a good method for playing 4 games each and keeping the same Provincial make ups as exists.
1 thing I don't like about your system is teams don't play outside their region until the Semifinals of their cup competition.
So the system
Week 1: Leinster and Ulster preliminaries. 12 interprovincial open draw ties. 6 from Munster, 6 from Connacht, 5 Leinster, 7 Ulster
Week 2 Provincial quarterfinals: 4 ties in Ulster and Leinster, 2 ties in Munster and Connacht. 4 Interprovincial open draw ties: 2 Munster, 2 Connacht, 1 Ulster, 3 Leinster
Week 3 Provincial semifinals: 2 ties in each province. 8 Interprovincial ties with a similar makeup to the current qualifiers round 1.
Week 4 Provincial finals: 4 finals plus 12 Interprovincial ties.
Could be played over 8 weekends with 8 fixtures each weekend.
Teams get graded to a championship after their 4 round of games.
There's no advantage to Provincial championships being seeded.
A similar system could be used in hurling. There's no need for Galway to be in any Province but the can still play 4 matches and be an equal part of the championship. Leinster would go back to being a real Leinster championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 10/08/2017 16:51:50
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Replying To Whammo86: " Replying To Hardtimes: ""If you're having a second tier competition you could just have 4 groups of 8. Top 4 from each into Sam Maguire cup bottom 4 into Paidi O'Se cup."
Whammo, that's exactly the structure I proposed in my opening post. Teams play 3-4 group games decided by random draw (no need for 7 games). Then you're into straight knockout with regional semi-finals for both A and B competition.
You don't need to seed from previous years or competitions, the seeding is in the initial 3-4 group games. Teams' fortunes can vary dramatically from year to year because of countless factors so it's a better way of gauging teams current ability IMO.
You're not making provincial councils redundant either so better chance of getting it agreed on." I was just thinking of a way of mixing league with championship. As I say there's a good method for playing 4 games each and keeping the same Provincial make ups as exists. 1 thing I don't like about your system is teams don't play outside their region until the Semifinals of their cup competition. So the system Week 1: Leinster and Ulster preliminaries. 12 interprovincial open draw ties. 6 from Munster, 6 from Connacht, 5 Leinster, 7 Ulster Week 2 Provincial quarterfinals: 4 ties in Ulster and Leinster, 2 ties in Munster and Connacht. 4 Interprovincial open draw ties: 2 Munster, 2 Connacht, 1 Ulster, 3 Leinster Week 3 Provincial semifinals: 2 ties in each province. 8 Interprovincial ties with a similar makeup to the current qualifiers round 1. Week 4 Provincial finals: 4 finals plus 12 Interprovincial ties. Could be played over 8 weekends with 8 fixtures each weekend. Teams get graded to a championship after their 4 round of games. There's no advantage to Provincial championships being seeded. A similar system could be used in hurling. There's no need for Galway to be in any Province but the can still play 4 matches and be an equal part of the championship. Leinster would go back to being a real Leinster championship."
It might work but the simpler solution is usually easier to sell especially in front of a committee. I'm also a firm believer that local derbies always draw the bigger crowd especially early in the competition. Having a provincial champ straight into the AI semi-final gives greater status to the provincial final IMO.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 11/08/2017 10:45:04
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Replying To Hardtimes: " Replying To Whammo86: "[quote=Hardtimes: ""If you're having a second tier competition you could just have 4 groups of 8. Top 4 from each into Sam Maguire cup bottom 4 into Paidi O'Se cup."
Whammo, that's exactly the structure I proposed in my opening post. Teams play 3-4 group games decided by random draw (no need for 7 games). Then you're into straight knockout with regional semi-finals for both A and B competition.
You don't need to seed from previous years or competitions, the seeding is in the initial 3-4 group games. Teams' fortunes can vary dramatically from year to year because of countless factors so it's a better way of gauging teams current ability IMO.
You're not making provincial councils redundant either so better chance of getting it agreed on." I was just thinking of a way of mixing league with championship. As I say there's a good method for playing 4 games each and keeping the same Provincial make ups as exists. 1 thing I don't like about your system is teams don't play outside their region until the Semifinals of their cup competition. So the system Week 1: Leinster and Ulster preliminaries. 12 interprovincial open draw ties. 6 from Munster, 6 from Connacht, 5 Leinster, 7 Ulster Week 2 Provincial quarterfinals: 4 ties in Ulster and Leinster, 2 ties in Munster and Connacht. 4 Interprovincial open draw ties: 2 Munster, 2 Connacht, 1 Ulster, 3 Leinster Week 3 Provincial semifinals: 2 ties in each province. 8 Interprovincial ties with a similar makeup to the current qualifiers round 1. Week 4 Provincial finals: 4 finals plus 12 Interprovincial ties. Could be played over 8 weekends with 8 fixtures each weekend. Teams get graded to a championship after their 4 round of games. There's no advantage to Provincial championships being seeded. A similar system could be used in hurling. There's no need for Galway to be in any Province but the can still play 4 matches and be an equal part of the championship. Leinster would go back to being a real Leinster championship."
It might work but the simpler solution is usually easier to sell especially in front of a committee. I'm also a firm believer that local derbies always draw the bigger crowd especially early in the competition. Having a provincial champ straight into the AI semi-final gives greater status to the provincial final IMO."]It'd be one big table. I was thinking 11,11,10 to 3 tiered championships. Provincial champions wouldn't be guaranteed a bye, although it would be quite likely. For instance Roscommon won 2 matches but if they lost both of their interprovincial games they might not qualify.
Makes the competition close to perfectly fair, whilst also not removing the Provincial championship as is.
I actually think a system without tiers would work though.
Have 20 teams remaining after 3 rounds.
Play round 4 alongside Provincial finals to get the field down to 12 teams.
4 byes to quarterfinals but not necessarily Provincial champions.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 11/08/2017 11:22:38
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It might work. Without a B competition though it gives a lot of counties nothing really to achieve in Championship. I don't think 3 tiers would be necessary either because the gulf in class is really not that pronounced. It's really only the top 4 pulling away. Bottom 16 would be a great competition plus having 16 teams makes a perfect structure for knockout.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 11/08/2017 11:39:00
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Replying To Hardtimes: "It might work. Without a B competition though it gives a lot of counties nothing really to achieve in Championship. I don't think 3 tiers would be necessary either because the gulf in class is really not that pronounced. It's really only the top 4 pulling away. Bottom 16 would be a great competition plus having 16 teams makes a perfect structure for knockout." Yeah one thing I'd say though is that teams don't need to win a trophy to get a sense of achievement from a season.
Carlow, Armagh, Down all really should consider this year to have been successful.
Keeping the Provincial titles in their current form would have more prestige than win a Northern championship.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 11/08/2017 16:00:11
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Is the Super 8 really just about more money for the GAA??
kerryluck (Kerry) - Posts: 2517 - 12/08/2017 07:44:35
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Replying To kerryluck: "Is the Super 8 really just about more money for the GAA??" We'll see what comes after it and if it is detrimental to the majority of counties how quickly the GAA will react and rectify. So at the moment it's a difficult question to answer but it's hard to see beyond how it's not about having a nice package for sale to TV.
Hardtimes (Cavan) - Posts: 1056 - 12/08/2017 08:54:15
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Replying To kerryluck: "Is the Super 8 really just about more money for the GAA??" Yes and No
What I think happened was that the GAA sort of needs to be making more money from the championship to make up for falling attendance particularly in Leinster.
They then thought what games do people actually want to see. Realistically that's more games between the really top teams.
So they are listening to fans who are voting with their feet.
The problem is they're also doing very little to help those teams who are struggling to retain players to play 2 or 3 championship games a season.
The problem is lower down also. The weaker counties also tend to play fewer games at the lower levels. That's probably what needs fixed more than the senior championship.
Successful counties get a conveyor of talent coming up through the grades. They'll know the players who've played well the whole way up.
I know in Antrim there's not a proper structure for the underage county teams and we don't play All Ireland junior. Our under 21 team is thrown together knowing that they'll likely only play 1 or maybe 2 matches.
I think these are really the competitions that need to be improved. Creating a proper intercounty season at the different age groups.
The Under 21 and now u20 level is an important bridge to keep players in the game. They don't just get lost in Antrim to the county team around this time, they get lost to the game completely.
Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4207 - 12/08/2017 09:52:07
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