National Forum

Fairer = more competitive

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This new "super 8" format got me thinking. Is it a coincidence that two of the fairest provincial championships are also the most competitive?

The Munster hurling championship and the Ulster football championship are both open draw. It doesn't matter if you are all-Ireland champions, you don't get special treatment e.g. Donegal drawn against Derry in the preliminary/1st round in 1993. Tipp in Munster quarter with the winner playing Waterford this year.

I think top brass should put their attention into making the championships fairer so more teams feel like they have a chance.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/02/2017 15:40:02    1960484

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "This new "super 8" format got me thinking. Is it a coincidence that two of the fairest provincial championships are also the most competitive?

The Munster hurling championship and the Ulster football championship are both open draw. It doesn't matter if you are all-Ireland champions, you don't get special treatment e.g. Donegal drawn against Derry in the preliminary/1st round in 1993. Tipp in Munster quarter with the winner playing Waterford this year.

I think top brass should put their attention into making the championships fairer so more teams feel like they have a chance."
Unless they get rid of the provincial championships how can the championships be made fairer.

the reason the Munster and Ulster championship are competitive is because of the counties in those provinces.It has absolutely nothing to do with the format of the provincial championships in those provinces.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 25/02/2017 15:52:36    1960490

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Replying To uibhfhaili1986:  "Unless they get rid of the provincial championships how can the championships be made fairer.

the reason the Munster and Ulster championship are competitive is because of the counties in those provinces.It has absolutely nothing to do with the format of the provincial championships in those provinces."
The point I am making is there are no seeded teams. It's an open draw. If they scraped the provincial championship they'd still seed it anyway.

The super 8 is another step towards an elite few at the detriment of everyone else.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/02/2017 16:12:02    1960502

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Replying To uibhfhaili1986:  "Unless they get rid of the provincial championships how can the championships be made fairer.

the reason the Munster and Ulster championship are competitive is because of the counties in those provinces.It has absolutely nothing to do with the format of the provincial championships in those provinces."
Certainly not by developing a 'Super 8' which is not favoured by either county or club players. Perhaps players are deemed redundant in this 'New GAA Vision'.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 25/02/2017 16:28:34    1960513

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People speak a lot about Champions League format. The Champions League has a qualification process. The Super 8 similarly will have a qualification process. It's not unusual to set a standard.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 25/02/2017 16:29:13    1960514

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Replying To uibhfhaili1986:  "Unless they get rid of the provincial championships how can the championships be made fairer.

the reason the Munster and Ulster championship are competitive is because of the counties in those provinces.It has absolutely nothing to do with the format of the provincial championships in those provinces."
You seem to have a fierce dislike of the provincial championship my friend. I would safely say that if Offaly won either there would be some celebrating done. I think that is the seem for nearly every county. Even Tyrone last year after winning Ulster was unreal and we have been successful in recent years. I know Ulster and Munster are the most competitive but maybe if Offaly got there house in order they would be a little more competitive. Even if they changed it to Champs league style format instead of provincial would Offaly or any other weaker county be competitive. I think it would be the same teams getting to the latter stages

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 25/02/2017 16:33:04    1960518

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Who exactly would benefit if Leinster football change to an open draw? Who wants to watch Carlow or Wicklow getting an utter trouncing vs. Dublin in the first round? I could easily see players for weak counties stepping out for the year and going traveling if they knew 7 months in advance that their first championship game was away to Dublin.

CastleBravo (Meath) - Posts: 1643 - 25/02/2017 17:11:38    1960534

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "You seem to have a fierce dislike of the provincial championship my friend. I would safely say that if Offaly won either there would be some celebrating done. I think that is the seem for nearly every county. Even Tyrone last year after winning Ulster was unreal and we have been successful in recent years. I know Ulster and Munster are the most competitive but maybe if Offaly got there house in order they would be a little more competitive. Even if they changed it to Champs league style format instead of provincial would Offaly or any other weaker county be competitive. I think it would be the same teams getting to the latter stages"
The provincial champions are holding back overall progress.

I'd love if Offaly won one but I'd much prefer if we had a much better system overall.I;d prefer the games to thrive rather than keep a system that might suit my own county.That sort of attitude unfortunately is very rare in the GAA amongst people who actually have some influence.

uibhfhaili1986 (Offaly) - Posts: 1296 - 25/02/2017 17:52:06    1960552

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Where was a motion at congress for 8 groups of 4 and abandoning the provincial championships?

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 25/02/2017 19:30:56    1960584

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Replying To legendzxix:  "Where was a motion at congress for 8 groups of 4 and abandoning the provincial championships?"
Lads you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the powers that be are going to get rid of the prov championships. If you look at some of the attendances in Ulster alone and the money it generates. Never ever going to happen. Remember it's all about money!!!!!

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 25/02/2017 20:08:38    1960598

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Lads you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the powers that be are going to get rid of the prov championships. If you look at some of the attendances in Ulster alone and the money it generates. Never ever going to happen. Remember it's all about money!!!!!"
That's the problem, everything is a money first decision.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 25/02/2017 20:51:00    1960635

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Lads you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the powers that be are going to get rid of the prov championships. If you look at some of the attendances in Ulster alone and the money it generates. Never ever going to happen. Remember it's all about money!!!!!"
My question was for those cribbing about the Super 8 motion being passed at Congress.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 25/02/2017 21:09:13    1960651

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Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Connacht an open type of draw You just dont play the same teams as last year. I think it has to do more with parity than anything else. Ulster has a bunch of counties roughly at the same level Munster hurling the same. Right now Connacht and Leinster in football have 1 dominant team each which makes it difficult for others to break through but it happens

cluichethar (Mayo) - Posts: 454 - 25/02/2017 21:45:15    1960680

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I put a link below relating to format ideas put forward by L Shara which are 'revolutionary' and may be too much for the GAA (and YOU :).
I initially came across Shara's ideas in January's issue of World Soccer, and went searching.
Essentially, he argues that while group formats such as in Soccer's World Cup start out as fair, there is a lot of manipulation in determining who advances. Example, a team with 1 pt can more easily get the win it needs in its 3rd group match against a 6-pts team who has qualified. He argues strong teams get seeded and avoid equally strong teams - while weaker teams have an unfair tougher draw to overcome.
Shara offers many solutions that follow a common theme - applying this theme to the AI SFC = say, divide the 32 into 4 seeding pots (in line with NFL) - Each team plays one fro each pot (incl their own) for 4 match roughly equal strength schedule - then, all 32 listed in one table to determine the KO teams (say, KO 16 contest Sam). It may sound bananas that each team plays a unique 4-match set - but this is no worse
than an FA Cup Rd of 64 where a team's chance of advancing varies widely based on quality of the unique opponent.
We could merge the NFL into the Race for Sam - Say, Kerry draws 4 teams from Divs 1, 2 and 3 for 12 games (maybe avoid Divs 1 v 4) before KO of 16 field chosen 32 team table. This could run toward Prov KO as well. Quite daft, you say ?

http://uk.reuters.com/article/soccer-tournaments-idUKL3N12S5E220151028n

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 26/02/2017 19:44:47    1961209

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Replying To cluichethar:  "Forgive me if I'm wrong but isn't Connacht an open type of draw You just dont play the same teams as last year. I think it has to do more with parity than anything else. Ulster has a bunch of counties roughly at the same level Munster hurling the same. Right now Connacht and Leinster in football have 1 dominant team each which makes it difficult for others to break through but it happens"
Where I am coming from is Tipp and cork used to be kept apart in Munster and back then they dominated.

When the Munster hurling championship went open draw the gap closed and now its ultra competitive.

Mayo and Dublin have lots of money behind them and that helps. Both sets of players are extremely talented too and it is why they are contesting All Ireland finals. It looks like Galway and Roscommon have caught up with Mayo and the Connacht championship is usually very competitive with the exception of Mayo's spell of dominance.

Killarney.87 (Tipperary) - Posts: 2513 - 28/02/2017 19:41:52    1962282

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Replying To The_Fridge:  "Lads you are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think the powers that be are going to get rid of the prov championships. If you look at some of the attendances in Ulster alone and the money it generates. Never ever going to happen. Remember it's all about money!!!!!"
Keeping the Provincial championships isn't only about money. It's also about exposure, the attendances that you get at Provincial championship games are great for promoting the game and make them indispensable right now.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 28/02/2017 21:53:22    1962330

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Replying To Whammo86:  "Keeping the Provincial championships isn't only about money. It's also about exposure, the attendances that you get at Provincial championship games are great for promoting the game and make them indispensable right now."
Agreed. That's the cherry on top. Mostly about money though.

The_Fridge (Tyrone) - Posts: 2088 - 28/02/2017 22:33:46    1962339

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Replying To omahant:  "I put a link below relating to format ideas put forward by L Shara which are 'revolutionary' and may be too much for the GAA (and YOU :).
I initially came across Shara's ideas in January's issue of World Soccer, and went searching.
Essentially, he argues that while group formats such as in Soccer's World Cup start out as fair, there is a lot of manipulation in determining who advances. Example, a team with 1 pt can more easily get the win it needs in its 3rd group match against a 6-pts team who has qualified. He argues strong teams get seeded and avoid equally strong teams - while weaker teams have an unfair tougher draw to overcome.
Shara offers many solutions that follow a common theme - applying this theme to the AI SFC = say, divide the 32 into 4 seeding pots (in line with NFL) - Each team plays one fro each pot (incl their own) for 4 match roughly equal strength schedule - then, all 32 listed in one table to determine the KO teams (say, KO 16 contest Sam). It may sound bananas that each team plays a unique 4-match set - but this is no worse
than an FA Cup Rd of 64 where a team's chance of advancing varies widely based on quality of the unique opponent.
We could merge the NFL into the Race for Sam - Say, Kerry draws 4 teams from Divs 1, 2 and 3 for 12 games (maybe avoid Divs 1 v 4) before KO of 16 field chosen 32 team table. This could run toward Prov KO as well. Quite daft, you say ?

That's" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://uk.reuters.com/article/soccer-tournaments-idUKL3N12S5E220151028n"
That's very interesting - the link is broken by the way - it should be:
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This is effectively the system that was used in the Cavan Intermediate championship last year - the only difference being that there was no seeding:
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It is a very clever system and could definitely be used for the All Ireland. For example, in the Super 8, teams could be in two seeding pots - one for the four provincial champions and one for the four qualifiers. Each team plays one from their own pot and two from the other pot with no rematches allowed. There would be a single table with the top four qualifying for the semi finals. As stated in the article, it would virtually eliminate the chance of dead rubbers (which is a significant flaw in the Super 8 proposal that's been adopted).

Similarly it could be used for a Super 10 in Hurling with each team playing say five matches, the top 6 qualifying for the play-offs and the bottom four playing relegation finals.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 28/02/2017 23:22:46    1962349

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Replying To Killarney.87:  "That's the problem, everything is a money first decision."
And what's wrong with the GAA wanting to make money? The accounts are all public and a massively bigger proportion of the funds than in any other sport is put back into the grassroots. Also the cost of tickets is incredibly reasonable compared to others.

What's your alternative - all games to be free or empty grounds with no money coming in? This is an organisation that has just decided to abolish most replays and to foolishly abandon the most high profile month of the year to other sports, which is going to cost it a lot of money. Why would a supposedly money-grabbing organisation do that? And the Super 8 won't compensate for the lost income considering so many of the games will be played outside Croke Park in significantly smaller grounds and the risk that, in the worst case scenario, all four final round games are 'dead rubbers' and will attract small crowds.

CeachtPeile (Cavan) - Posts: 103 - 28/02/2017 23:36:34    1962351

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The GAA top brass has no interest in fairness.

Their biggest concern is simply money.

tearintom (Wexford) - Posts: 1337 - 01/03/2017 08:14:20    1962364

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