HoganStand GAA Football and Hurling

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while there is so much talk about change in football, its very hard to come up with a good new system, khow about this for a new hurling set up, mccarty cup 10 teams only , 2 groups of 5, 2 rounds, each team plays 8 games, 4 home 4 away, top two in semi, bottem team in each group play in relegation final, 1 team goes to ring cup , one comes up, in theory cork for example can go down, and frank murphy combusts! it brings the games back to the people and supports local businesses, more games for players like they want, more money for gaa like they want Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2842 - 17/08/2016 19:12:27 1902429 Link
I like it. Its straightforward, easy to understand, and gives each team 8 top flight games a year. We could do away with the league, as this essentially merges the league and championship together, which actually makes sense. Instead of a minimum of 5 league games (which are of less importance), and a minimum of 2 championship games, teams get 8 high profile championship games a year. One thing, relegation/promotion would have to be open, fair, and consistent, as the competition is limited to 10 teams. The Ring/Rackard/meagher cups would have to e restructured to give those teams the same benefit. But with the extra teams, these competitions would be raised to even higher standards. It could work. Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 17/08/2016 19:32:39 1902444 Link
Great idea. Frank Murphy won't allow Cork to be relegated so you would need to factor that in. bennybunny (Cork) - Posts: 3917 - 17/08/2016 20:23:21 1902461 Link
Replying To bennybunny: "Great idea. Frank Murphy won't allow Cork to be relegated so you would need to factor that in." ha ha yea i had to put that dig in at herr frank as we called him Stmunnsriver (Wexford) - Posts: 2842 - 17/08/2016 20:41:10 1902470 Link
good idea from op - im goin to suggest slight change - -keep the two provincial championships -top team in each group goes to semi - 2nd team in each group goes into quarter final against a provincial winner. - if a provincial winner has already made top two in league then they go straight to semi - its a good structured championship by the op - give fixture clarity which will help clubs - might end up with some dead rubbers towards end though - but then again maybe not janesboro (Limerick) - Posts: 1502 - 18/08/2016 10:43:18 1902633 Link
Replying To janesboro: "good idea from op - im goin to suggest slight change - -keep the two provincial championships -top team in each group goes to semi - 2nd team in each group goes into quarter final against a provincial winner. - if a provincial winner has already made top two in league then they go straight to semi - its a good structured championship by the op - give fixture clarity which will help clubs - might end up with some dead rubbers towards end though - but then again maybe not" That would make for a much better season. If you ran the group stages off first, and the provincials off quickly then the dead rubbers wouldn't be a big deal. They'd still be prep for the provincial championships. Something similar would be better than what we've got in football also. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 18/08/2016 11:33:51 1902665 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "That would make for a much better season. If you ran the group stages off first, and the provincials off quickly then the dead rubbers wouldn't be a big deal. They'd still be prep for the provincial championships. Something similar would be better than what we've got in football also." But that's essentially what we have now, league games as prep for championship. The appeal of the Stmunnsriver's proposal is that we could do away with secondary competitions, or competitions that are simply prep for the main competition, and give teams 8 top level matches a year. If we maintained league and provincials as separate competitions, the season would be pretty bloated, and club games would really suffer. What the original proposal would give, is a season of majority fixed date matches, that a proper club/county schedule could be worked around. With the current championship, all counties have just one fixed date for their inter-county team. After that date, they could have one more match, and be finished by late June, or 5 more matches, and finished in September. And no-one know the dates or locations their team will be playing outside of that first match. We'll never be able to formulate a fair and cogent club/county fixture list with that system, its just not possible. Having one main competition that is mainly league based, the dates for most intercounty matches are known well in advance, and we can finally schedule properly, even a allowing proper breaks for club matches. If we really wanted to hang on to the provincial championships, there is an argument for playing them off as straight knockout before the main competition, in a streamlined manner. But the provincial system ultimately doesn't suit hurlings geography, competitively, so Stmunnsriver's initial proposal seems like a logical replacement, and would work better without trying to fit in a provincial element. And this is coming from someone who's most treasured sporting memory is the 1987 Munster final, I love the Munster Championship. But Stmunnsriver's proposal would ultimately be better for hurling as a whole. Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 18/08/2016 17:51:44 1902930 Link
In my own humble opinion the 4 provincial hurling finalists and 4 qualifier counties should enter 2 groups of 4. Reward provincial champions with all 3 of their group games at home. Their group rivals then having only 1 home game each. It offers a carrot for winning the province. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 18/08/2016 18:52:04 1902954 Link
Replying To Marlon_JD: "But that's essentially what we have now, league games as prep for championship. The appeal of the Stmunnsriver's proposal is that we could do away with secondary competitions, or competitions that are simply prep for the main competition, and give teams 8 top level matches a year. If we maintained league and provincials as separate competitions, the season would be pretty bloated, and club games would really suffer. What the original proposal would give, is a season of majority fixed date matches, that a proper club/county schedule could be worked around. With the current championship, all counties have just one fixed date for their inter-county team. After that date, they could have one more match, and be finished by late June, or 5 more matches, and finished in September. And no-one know the dates or locations their team will be playing outside of that first match. We'll never be able to formulate a fair and cogent club/county fixture list with that system, its just not possible. Having one main competition that is mainly league based, the dates for most intercounty matches are known well in advance, and we can finally schedule properly, even a allowing proper breaks for club matches. If we really wanted to hang on to the provincial championships, there is an argument for playing them off as straight knockout before the main competition, in a streamlined manner. But the provincial system ultimately doesn't suit hurlings geography, competitively, so Stmunnsriver's initial proposal seems like a logical replacement, and would work better without trying to fit in a provincial element. And this is coming from someone who's most treasured sporting memory is the 1987 Munster final, I love the Munster Championship. But Stmunnsriver's proposal would ultimately be better for hurling as a whole." I agree with a lot of what you're saying. There are 2 big problems though. Realistically provincial championships will not be removed in the next 10 years. You can't have a load of dead rubbers at the end of a season. Players will leave the county panel for the US or to go back training with their clubs. The single biggest improvement that could be made to the championship is to play the provincial series off over 7 weeks. Week 1 Ulster and Leinster football preliminaries Week 2 Munster and Connacht football quarter finals, Leinster hurling quarter finals Week 3 Ulster and Leinster football quarter finals, Munster hurling quarter finals Week 4 Munster and Connacht football semifinals, Leinster hurling semifinals Week 5 Ulster and Leinster football semifinals, Munster hurling semifinals Week 6 Munster and Connacht football finals, Leinster hurling final Week 7 Ulster and Leinster football finals, Munster hurling final In football you use the National league to get 12 teams qualified for the AI series plus 4 provincial champions. Provincial champions who are in those 12 go straight into the quarterfinals. In hurling you use the National leagues to get the AI series down to 6 plus provincial champions. Provincial champions in those 6 qualify directly to the semifinals. The league isn't pointless it is one of the ways of qualifying for the AI series, but at least if a team is out of the running through the league they still have the provincial championships to play for. Provincial championships go back to being do or die. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 18/08/2016 21:28:58 1902999 Link
So, I guess I was really thinking about this system in terms of hurling, as football has a much greater spread competitively, and can at least sustain 4 provincial championships. I suppose before coming up with any system, its important to identify the objectives we want any overhaul to achieve. When I think about it, I'm looking for: - a system that will facilitate the formation of a proper club/county fixture list at the beginning of the year - a system that can allow for proper breaks for club hurling - a system that will boost the profile of hurling, and give inter-county players enough high profile matches to give them the maximum profile on a national stage - to have the top teams meeting each other from the beginning of the championship (i.e. the first game of the championship could be Tipp v kilkenny) - a system that will reward the best teams - a system that will allow for proper relegation and promotion between the second tier, with a competitive second tier that won't be the end of the world if a top tier team finds itself relegated to it I think the OP's system ticks those boxes. With regard to dead rubber matches, that need not happen. i mean, you could have 2 groups like this: Group 1: Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare, Cork, Wexford Group 2: Waterford, Galway, Limerick, Dublin, Offaly Every match is a good one, 2 Kilkenny v Tipperary matches guaranteed alone. If you kept with just the top 2 going into semi's, you could have the bottom 4 go into the relegation play-off. Worth avoiding, so no dead rubber there. But if you wanted to improve still, you could have the top team from each group go into semi's, and the 2nd placed team from each group play the 3rd placed team from the other group, to decide the other semi finalists (2nd placed teams get home advantage). it could all come down to the last day in that case. I think its an attractive proposition. One thing that I think its important to recognize though, is that hurling and football are in very different states, with very different geographical and competitive spreads. So two pretty different approaches are required when it comes to improving each championship. Marlon_JD (Tipperary) - Posts: 1823 - 19/08/2016 18:56:42 1903330 Link
Replying To Marlon_JD: "So, I guess I was really thinking about this system in terms of hurling, as football has a much greater spread competitively, and can at least sustain 4 provincial championships. I suppose before coming up with any system, its important to identify the objectives we want any overhaul to achieve. When I think about it, I'm looking for: - a system that will facilitate the formation of a proper club/county fixture list at the beginning of the year - a system that can allow for proper breaks for club hurling - a system that will boost the profile of hurling, and give inter-county players enough high profile matches to give them the maximum profile on a national stage - to have the top teams meeting each other from the beginning of the championship (i.e. the first game of the championship could be Tipp v kilkenny) - a system that will reward the best teams - a system that will allow for proper relegation and promotion between the second tier, with a competitive second tier that won't be the end of the world if a top tier team finds itself relegated to it I think the OP's system ticks those boxes. With regard to dead rubber matches, that need not happen. i mean, you could have 2 groups like this: Group 1: Kilkenny, Tipperary, Clare, Cork, Wexford Group 2: Waterford, Galway, Limerick, Dublin, Offaly Every match is a good one, 2 Kilkenny v Tipperary matches guaranteed alone. If you kept with just the top 2 going into semi's, you could have the bottom 4 go into the relegation play-off. Worth avoiding, so no dead rubber there. But if you wanted to improve still, you could have the top team from each group go into semi's, and the 2nd placed team from each group play the 3rd placed team from the other group, to decide the other semi finalists (2nd placed teams get home advantage). it could all come down to the last day in that case. I think its an attractive proposition. One thing that I think its important to recognize though, is that hurling and football are in very different states, with very different geographical and competitive spreads. So two pretty different approaches are required when it comes to improving each championship." I agree the hurling championship needs a massive overhaul. The provincial series aren't fit for purpose for creating a fair AI series in hurling. The GAA won't get rid of the Munster championship though. It can't, it probably shouldn't either. It draws the crowds, a Munster final is a serious occasion for everyone playing in it. A good proposal was mooted last year that looked to combine the league with the provincial championships so that they get played as fixtures within a wider All Ireland league where everyone in the top tier plays one another once Say you'd 12 teams, 5 Munster, Galway, 6 Leinster. The early rounds wound see mainly Munster/Galway vs Leinster games. After a few weeks the first rounds of the provincial championships get played, with the teams with byes still playing against teams from outside their province. The semifinals follow. Then the last few weeks include the remaining games between teams from the same province including the provincial finals. You could have the top 6 qualify for the knockout rounds. 2 teams relegated. Galway no longer need to play in Leinster and are at no disadvantage. They'll even get home games. If Kerry get promoted they earn the right to play in the Munster championship. League based season played off over 14 weekends in total. Loads of time for club. Play them in the 22 weeks or so in Apr, May, Jun, July, August with 8 break weeks set aside for club fixtures. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4223 - 19/08/2016 19:39:05 1903342 Link