There's been all sorts of threads on this topic down through the years, especially during the off season when we have more time to reflect, but I think it's generally accepted now that while the provincials are great (especially for local derbies) they're time is up and the Gaa are just delaying the inevitable by continuing with the current format.

The reason I bring this up now is because I heard Dessie Farrell on Newstalk last night and the lads briefly put this issue to him and he said that the GPA had made a number of submissions (without being too specific) and more importantly Liam O'Neill said he wants to move the the All-Ireland finals to August, but again I think that's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.

So I have two questions for you's = 1) Do you actually want to see the format completely changed? (not just minor changes) and 2) What sort of format would you favour? But I'm going to give a list of realistic options because I want to try and avoid complicated structures if possible:

a) Champions League format (8 groups of 4, 6 group games each, top 2 qualify for last 16, straight KO from there, no replays, 10 games to win the All-Ireland)
b) World Cup format (8 groups of 4, 3 group games each, top 2 qualify for last 16, straight KO from there, no replays, 7 games to win the All-Ireland)
c) Even out the provinces (Move teams around permanently leaving 8 per province and continue with current format, minimum of 6 games to win the All-Ireland)
d) 32 county straight KO (This could be either a seeded draw or an open draw, fixed bracket, no replays, 5 games to win the All-Ireland)

The Champions League format would be very workable from the 1st week of May straight up to the 3rd Sunday in September (for the traditionalists) with at least a 2 week break between all games and the occasional 3 week break and it goes without say that format's b, c and d would fit in even better.

So again do you actually want to see the format changed Yes or No? And which to format? (This obviously doesn't apply if you say No)

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/10/2014 11:55:47    1666062

This and these threads have been exhausted to death over the past few weeks. They dont end up in any constructive debate and end up in farce or gratuitous negative criticisms. The bottom line is that the provincial structures are at the mercy of the provincial councils, and if a motion is put forward and voted on by 2/1 then it can be taken from there. Until then, it is put up or shut up, especially for us up here in ulster.

I would like to see a team that was drawn in the preliminary round of the ulster championship being excluded from that round the following year, as it is a very big ask to come from the middle of may until potentially the end of september, but again, there is nothing you can do if the open draw is left unchallenged.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/10/2014 12:31:50    1666071

Donegalman

This and these threads have been exhausted to death over the past few weeks.

To be fair I'm only offering simple and practical solutions to an outdated championship structure, nothing silly or over complicated and I'm really just interested to know whether or not people actually want the structure completely changed, I'm not too interested in arguing over minor tweaks.

So Donegalman, do you want to see it completely changed?

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/10/2014 12:41:21    1666074

Combine Munster and Connacht teams in a round robin league with the top two teams going in to the Ulster Championship. Winners of Ulster get straight in to the AI Semi. Runners up in Ulster get straight in to the AI Quarters. Leinster winners also get straight in to the Semi with the runners up also getting in to the Quarters. Two teams from the Qualifiers come through to the 1/4 finals and play the runners up in Ulster or Leinster with winner progressing to the semi. Play off the Munster and Connacht Championships as normal but no progression for the winners. After that they can do what they want. Good enough for the AI Hurling, good enough for the Football.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 22/10/2014 12:48:44    1666078

All of the above formats keep weaker counties involved for to long and will result in mismatches. We don't allow everyone play for Liam McCarthy why persist with it for Sam McGuire.
Without a provincial championship 26 counties have nothing to play for in all of the above structures.
I propose this regularly but here goes again.

1. January preseason
2. Reduce league divisions by two teams (3 groups of 6 teams and two groups of 7) (5 games for strong counties and 6 for weaker)
3. Play league in Feb and March (no finals)
4. Play opening rounds of club championship in April (3 games)
5. Play knock out provincial championship - seeded by league positions (4 games max) end of May and June
6. Play Round robin top 16 (all Ireland) and bottom 16 (tommy murphy) - 3 matches in July
7. Play Knock out All Ireland series in August with Tommy Murphy matches as curtain raisers - 3 matches
8. Play final rounds of county club matches in September/Oct
9. Play Provincial and all ireland club matches in Oct-Nov - draw seeded as per intercounty interprovincial
10. Keep December as close season for all GAA activity including Schools and colleges

Max number of intercounty matches would be 12 per county
Tommy Murphy winners seeded in provincial draw the following year regardless of league position
Of the bottom 4 teams in all Ireland round robin - team who performs worst (least points and worst scoring difference) is automatically relegated to Tommy Murphy the following year.
Best performing teams in Provincial championship get most home games in all Ireland round robin.
All intercounty matches go to extra time and only replayed if drawn after extra time.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 22/10/2014 12:58:28    1666080

tirawleybaron

All of the above formats keep weaker counties involved for to long and will result in mismatches. We don't allow everyone play for Liam McCarthy why persist with it for Sam McGuire.
Without a provincial championship 26 counties have nothing to play for in all of the above structures.
I propose this regularly but here goes again.

The world cup format would only guarantee 3 matches per county so I don't know how that could be considered 'too long', but anyway the provincials could be kept (but not as part of the championship) and the likes of O'Bryne Cup and FBD league scrapped so the 'weaker' counties still have something to play for. But anyway how often do weaker counties actually win the provincials? very rarely it has to be said.

Anyway, again, I'm just interested to know if you think the format should be changed Yes or No and which of the 4 I suggested would be your favourite because believe me, when the Gaa finally does change the format, it will be a simple structure like the ones I've listed.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/10/2014 13:12:17    1666085

I vote for option D on the original plan.. straight open draw knockout. extra-time if a draw.
more emphasis on the league which is a proper competition.

s goldrick (Cavan) - Posts: 5518 - 22/10/2014 13:28:47    1666097

Top 16 seeds (Based on league & Champ over the last 10 years) into 1 side of an open draw

8 progress to last 16

Bottom 16 seeds play 2 rounds

4 progress to last 16

4 provincial winners progress to last 16

Simples !

shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 22/10/2014 13:37:37    1666100

Given a choice between what we have and the four options presented, I would pick option 3 but it has zero chance of happening because something similar was turned down already.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 22/10/2014 14:08:40    1666117

Best thread that has been set up on this matter

royaldunne (Meath) - Posts: 19449 - 22/10/2014 15:52:37    1666166

Change The Football Championship Format?22/10/2014 11:55:47 Htaem
There's been all sorts of threads on this topic down through the years, especially during the off season when we have more time to reflect, but I think it's generally accepted now that while the provincials are great (especially for local derbies) they're time is up and the Gaa are just delaying the inevitable by continuing with the current format.
The reason I bring this up now is because I heard Dessie Farrell on Newstalk last night and the lads briefly put this issue to him and he said that the GPA had made a number of submissions (without being too specific) and more importantly Liam O'Neill said he wants to move the the All-Ireland finals to August, but again I think that's just rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
So I have two questions for you's = 1) Do you actually want to see the format completely changed? (not just minor changes) and 2) What sort of format would you favour? But I'm going to give a list of realistic options because I want to try and avoid complicated structures if possible:
a) Champions League format (8 groups of 4, 6 group games each, top 2 qualify for last 16, straight KO from there, no replays, 10 games to win the All-Ireland)
b) World Cup format (8 groups of 4, 3 group games each, top 2 qualify for last 16, straight KO from there, no replays, 7 games to win the All-Ireland)
c) Even out the provinces (Move teams around permanently leaving 8 per province and continue with current format, minimum of 6 games to win the All-Ireland)
d) 32 county straight KO (This could be either a seeded draw or an open draw, fixed bracket, no replays, 5 games to win the All-Ireland)
The Champions League format would be very workable from the 1st week of May straight up to the 3rd Sunday in September (for the traditionalists) with at least a 2 week break between all games and the occasional 3 week break and it goes without say that format's b, c and d would fit in even better.
So again do you actually want to see the format changed Yes or No? And which to format? (This obviously doesn't apply if you say No) The role the provincial championships play in deciding who wins Sam needs to be adapted but they cant be got rid of or moved completely to pre season where they would soon be discredited.
I don't think levelling off numbers in each province to 8 is the answer as its not the munster or leinster championship then its Ireland east/south/west and that isn't appealing to me
The GAA will never go back to straight knockout as the financial losses from losing so many games and tv coverage etc would be too big to lose out on
I think a league based competition should be the primary competition with 2 cup competitions also on offer(A provincial and all Ireland cup)
22/10/2014 12:48:44 Offside_Rule
Combine Munster and Connacht teams in a round robin league with the top two teams going in to the Ulster Championship. Winners of Ulster get straight in to the AI Semi. Runners up in Ulster get straight in to the AI Quarters. Leinster winners also get straight in to the Semi with the runners up also getting in to the Quarters. Two teams from the Qualifiers come through to the 1/4 finals and play the runners up in Ulster or Leinster with winner progressing to the semi. Play off the Munster and Connacht Championships as normal but no progression for the winners. After that they can do what they want. Good enough for the AI Hurling, good enough for the FootballWhy are Munster and Connacht lesser beings than Ulster and Leinster
No format should or ever will happen where provincial champions in one province go ahead of champions of another province
Using the hurling set up in football would never work due to strengths of each sport nationwide being so different

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 22/10/2014 16:14:20    1666180

Provincial system will never go away. Nobody wants to go to Connacht. Only Oliver Cromwell managed to force the Irish to do that and the GAA is too democratic(which means it will be voted down too easily) for any chance of teams going into that.

So what we need is a fair system, even amount of matches that maintains the provincial structure

HOW?
Do away with the league and intergrate it into championship. I have drawn up alternative here link

Key points
Every team plays 10 league games (could easily just be eight though)-random fixtures with mix of sides in province and out of province
5 home and away
5 against top 16 rated sides
5 against bottom 16 rated sides


Top two sides progress to Provinical final

Provincial champions and the other best eight placed sides go to all Ireland series in straight knockout system

Calendar can be cleared down and allow more room for club fixtures and means teams are guaranteed home championship games at the height of summer which would be better for attendances

shaggykev (Donegal) - Posts: 187 - 22/10/2014 16:33:23    1666185

we're going down a road I really didn't want to go down, suggestions of all sorts flying in from all directions, listen I'm only being realistic and realistically when the championship is changed in 5 or 10 or 15 etc etc years time, it will most likely be to one of the four I referred to, particularly one of the first two.

All I really want to know though is if people actually want the Gaa to change the structure of the championship, and so far it looks like people would prefer to see a change.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/10/2014 17:27:43    1666213

Htaem,

Firstly, I am not sure if change is practical. If there were open draws or seeded draws, how many people would travel to say mullingar for a derry v clare tie, of which there would be many, as opposed to derry v donegal, tyrone or the like. the gate would be x5 I am quite sure of this. Plus the only hope for many counties is honors at provincial level, even if it is quite a remote chance. I think that if there is change, it would have huge issues like this to overcome, as well as teams traveling vast distances, and the big issue of playing certain teams at home no mater what (I really dont want to start another debate on this, I am just saying)!

We might have to stick to the provincial format, as it might be the best option there is.

It is up to other provinces to enter the spirit of an open draw. Or not. I dont think that seeding does any good for the competition as a whole.

Donegalman (None) - Posts: 3830 - 22/10/2014 17:39:42    1666220

The current championship is just the way it is. Somethings will never change.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7824 - 22/10/2014 18:35:22    1666248

Donegalman

I understand a lot of your concerns, also you're county is in the most competitive province so naturally Ulster counties would be the hardest to convince. But I don't agree with when you say you're not sure that change is practical, to be honest I feel the opposite, I think the current system is quite impractical given how imbalanced it is.

Now I agree that a game between Derry v Clare as you say wouldn't garner near as much interest as Derry v Donegal, especially if it was a nothing game in a group format but under the right circumstances it could generate a lot of interest within those counties. Personally I'm for the world cup format because you'd only have 3 group games instead of 6 (CL style) meaning almost every game is crucial and under that sort of system games like Derry v Clare can be very important.

Ps, I'm still for keeping the provincials just not as part of the championship but their relevance could be kept alive by giving provincial winners and maybe even losers aswell top seed for the championship draw or by giving them home advantage in certain group games etc etc. Things like that would go at least some way to retaining their relevance.

Htaem (Meath) - Posts: 8657 - 22/10/2014 19:57:16    1666273

Ormond - wasn't a serious suggestion, but I do agree with you that the ulster hurling champions should get in to the AI Quarters as Ulster shouldn't be lesser beings than any other Province in the hurling.

Offside_Rule (Antrim) - Posts: 4058 - 22/10/2014 20:16:45    1666280

Htaem

Personally I'm for the world cup format because you'd only have 3 group games instead of 6 (CL style) meaning almost every game is crucial and under that sort of system games like Derry v Clare can be very important.

Ps, I'm still for keeping the provincials just not as part of the championship but their relevance could be kept alive by giving provincial winners and maybe even losers aswell top seed for the championship draw or by giving them home advantage in certain group games etc etc. Things like that would go at least some way to retaining their relevance.

This is a better option than any of the original 4.

tirawleybaron (Mayo) - Posts: 1105 - 23/10/2014 08:25:14    1666324

22/10/2014 17:27:43 Htaem
we're going down a road I really didn't want to go down, suggestions of all sorts flying in from all directions, listen I'm only being realistic and realistically when the championship is changed in 5 or 10 or 15 etc etc years time, it will most likely be to one of the four I referred to, particularly one of the first two.
All I really want to know though is if people actually want the Gaa to change the structure of the championship, and so far it looks like people would prefer to see a change. But Htaem while admirable your idea that this thread would only be full of realistic proposals yet many are not ever going to happen under current gaa administration shows the huge faults with the cirrentlset up
I think its very clear from this and all the competition format threads that the fans really want radical overhaul of the competition formats
22/10/2014 18:35:22 legendzxix
The current championship is just the way it is. Somethings will never change. That's a cop out to be fair legend and if there is enough will and desire from players etc you could most certainly see changes made
22/10/2014 19:57:16 Htaem
Donegalman I understand a lot of your concerns, also you're county is in the most competitive province so naturally Ulster counties would be the hardest to convince. But I don't agree with when you say you're not sure that change is practical, to be honest I feel the opposite, I think the current system is quite impractical given how imbalanced it is.
Now I agree that a game between Derry v Clare as you say wouldn't garner near as much interest as Derry v Donegal, especially if it was a nothing game in a group format but under the right circumstances it could generate a lot of interest within those counties. Personally I'm for the world cup format because you'd only have 3 group games instead of 6 (CL style) meaning almost every game is crucial and under that sort of system games like Derry v Clare can be very important.
Ps, I'm still for keeping the provincials just not as part of the championship but their relevance could be kept alive by giving provincial winners and maybe even losers aswell top seed for the championship draw or by giving them home advantage in certain group games etc etc. Things like that would go at least some way to retaining their relevance. good points

ormondbannerman (Clare) - Posts: 13473 - 23/10/2014 11:37:53    1666429

I'd go for Option C. Or, we could keep the exact current structure, with a few minor tweaks:
1) 8 prov finalists play 3 KO rounds, with losers of 4, 2 and 1 to Qual Rds 4, 5 and 6.
2) 8 Qual Rd 2 winners to Tommy Murphy Cup Quarter Finals.
3) 16 Qual Rd 1 and 2 losers to Qual Rd 3.

With this, the Tom Murf champ joins 4 winners from Rd 5 and the loser from prov 'champs cup' final, to form the 6-team Rd 6 (could be called AI QFs).
The one unbeaten prov champ (champs cup winner) gets a bye to AI SFs).

omahant (USA) - Posts: 2570 - 25/10/2014 16:47:50    1667113