National - Duffy: tiered Championships in football

Duffy feels that we have seen the last of the current Championship structure.

"Well I don't think that would be better, but that could happen," he said when asked if the format could be tinkered with down the line.

"I'd be surprised if it's the status quo, I think it might be something different. For example, we might look at tiered Championships in football and stuff like that. I'd be surprised if we go back to the status quo, but it could happen."


I think the hurling championship format discussion is history after the new format they have agreed. Time will tell!

I think after the initial experiment in football of 2 groups of 4, it should expand to 4 groups of 4. Consisting of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifier counties.

All other counties should have the option of participating in a second championship, with the winner guaranteed a group stage spot in the following year.

Provincial winners should take on a provincial runner-up in Croke Park and 2 qualifier counties at home. All other counties should get 1 home game each.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5322 - 03/10/2017 15:44:42   2052740

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Duffy feels that we have seen the last of the current Championship structure.

"Well I don't think that would be better, but that could happen," he said when asked if the format could be tinkered with down the line.

"I'd be surprised if it's the status quo, I think it might be something different. For example, we might look at tiered Championships in football and stuff like that. I'd be surprised if we go back to the status quo, but it could happen."


I think the hurling championship format discussion is history after the new format they have agreed. Time will tell!

I think after the initial experiment in football of 2 groups of 4, it should expand to 4 groups of 4. Consisting of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifier counties.

All other counties should have the option of participating in a second championship, with the winner guaranteed a group stage spot in the following year.

Provincial winners should take on a provincial runner-up in Croke Park and 2 qualifier counties at home. All other counties should get 1 home game each."
I think there are improvements that could be made in both once the trial period is over.

A friend working in Croke Park has told me before they would like group stages in the Provincial football championships but there's a reluctance in the part of the Provincial councils to change from the knockout formats in football.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1772 - 03/10/2017 16:38:17   2052755

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "Duffy feels that we have seen the last of the current Championship structure.

"Well I don't think that would be better, but that could happen," he said when asked if the format could be tinkered with down the line.

"I'd be surprised if it's the status quo, I think it might be something different. For example, we might look at tiered Championships in football and stuff like that. I'd be surprised if we go back to the status quo, but it could happen."


I think the hurling championship format discussion is history after the new format they have agreed. Time will tell!

I think after the initial experiment in football of 2 groups of 4, it should expand to 4 groups of 4. Consisting of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifier counties.

All other counties should have the option of participating in a second championship, with the winner guaranteed a group stage spot in the following year.

Provincial winners should take on a provincial runner-up in Croke Park and 2 qualifier counties at home. All other counties should get 1 home game each."
I think there are improvements that could be made in both once the trial period is over.

A friend working in Croke Park has told me before they would like group stages in the Provincial football championships but there's a reluctance in the part of the Provincial councils to change from the knockout formats in football."]There are merits in a provincial group stage as well. I think they will either expand to 4 groups of 4 as suggested or else go for provincial groups.

Provincial groups would probably be:
Munster - 1 group of 6.
Connaught - 1 group of 5.
Leinster - 1 group of 6 and 1 group of 5.
Ulster + London - 2 groups of 5.

Top 2 in Munster and Connaught groups into provincial finals. Top 2 in Leinster and Ulster groups into provincial semi-finals.

Provincial runners-up and provincial semi-final losers entering a play-off. Winners of the playoff advancing to take on provincial champions in the quarter-finals.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5322 - 03/10/2017 18:26:29   2052782

Link

Just to add to previous post:

The tiered hurling championship sets a standard. The Super 8 will also be setting a standard.

Provincial groups in football will not set a standard. I'm more in favour of a Top 16 of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers, with the rest entering a second championship guaranteeing the winner a Top 16 spot in the following year. It's not too dissimilar to European club soccer and European club rugby having a premier competition and a secondary competition with the carrot of offering a premier ticket in the following year.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5322 - 03/10/2017 19:05:56   2052793

Link

Replying To legendzxix:  "Just to add to previous post:

The tiered hurling championship sets a standard. The Super 8 will also be setting a standard.

Provincial groups in football will not set a standard. I'm more in favour of a Top 16 of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers, with the rest entering a second championship guaranteeing the winner a Top 16 spot in the following year. It's not too dissimilar to European club soccer and European club rugby having a premier competition and a secondary competition with the carrot of offering a premier ticket in the following year."
I'd like there to be 4 major GAA tournaments in a season. 2 in Spring, 2 in Summer.

Spring tournament:

New Ireland (NFL) cup top 12 teams qualifying from previous years Sam Maguire cup.

Sean Purcell Cup (Sam Maguire cup qualifier) remaining 20 teams playing for 8 Sam Maguire cup places and to win a Trophy.

Summer Tournaments:

Sam Maguire Cup (All Ireland championship) 20 teams, to also include Provincial championships.

Kevin Heffernan cup 12 teams, winner guaranteed a spot in the following season's Sam Maguire cup.

All teams get a shot at the All Ireland playing in a competitive qualifying tournament, which could likely have a profile in line with the NFL since it acts as an All Ireland qualifying tournament.

I think you're getting teams playing more a better games throughout the season.

In each tournament I'd guarantee teams a minimum of 4 matches in the first phases moving on to playoffs.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1772 - 03/10/2017 19:31:23   2052799

Link

The national football league is grand as it is. Noone is calling for a change there.

Expanding the group stage to 4 groups of 4 after the trial period will not be a drastic change.

Giving teams the option of a second championship with the carrot of top table qualification for the following year should also be a suitable step.

These are the only changes needed from next year's football championship structure.

Lower counties will still retain two bites at the All-Ireland cherry through the provincial championships and qualifiers.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5322 - 03/10/2017 19:56:56   2052814

Link

Did they not have a football "B" championship some years back Wicklow won it with micko. Why was that scrapped?

Bon (Kildare) - Posts:409 - 04/10/2017 23:32:14   2053181

Link

Replying To Bon:  "Did they not have a football "B" championship some years back Wicklow won it with micko. Why was that scrapped?"
Lack of interest.

They also made it compulsory and excluded teams from the qualifiers to play in it instead.

Really it could be brought back within the current system as a optional tournament played between teams not in the Super 8.

With the GAA changing the fixtures if you put the AI final back to Aug bank holiday, leaving room for club championship after that you could fit that competition in no bother, leaving 14 weeks from Aug to October bank holiday to play club championship.

I'd push back Provincial and All Ireland club to February and March, and have a very compact intercounty season of April to August Bank holiday guaranteeing plenty of games.

It's 18 weeks, maybe have 3 or 4 rest weekends in that time and look to guarantee 10 games for all teams. I think you've a great season then.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1772 - 05/10/2017 11:08:23   2053234

Link

The UEFA Europa League and European Rugby Challenge Cup offer the winners a route to the Premier competition in the following year.

I don't think football should opt for a tiered structure like hurling. Simply 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers should enter a Top 16.

All other counties should optionally enter a second championship with the winner guaranteed a Top 16 place in the following year. Nothing more needs to be done.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5322 - 05/10/2017 16:37:20   2053378

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "[quote=legendzxix:  "Just to add to previous post:

The tiered hurling championship sets a standard. The Super 8 will also be setting a standard.

Provincial groups in football will not set a standard. I'm more in favour of a Top 16 of 8 provincial finalists and 8 qualifiers, with the rest entering a second championship guaranteeing the winner a Top 16 spot in the following year. It's not too dissimilar to European club soccer and European club rugby having a premier competition and a secondary competition with the carrot of offering a premier ticket in the following year."
I'd like there to be 4 major GAA tournaments in a season. 2 in Spring, 2 in Summer.

Spring tournament:

New Ireland (NFL) cup top 12 teams qualifying from previous years Sam Maguire cup.

Sean Purcell Cup (Sam Maguire cup qualifier) remaining 20 teams playing for 8 Sam Maguire cup places and to win a Trophy.

Summer Tournaments:

Sam Maguire Cup (All Ireland championship) 20 teams, to also include Provincial championships.

Kevin Heffernan cup 12 teams, winner guaranteed a spot in the following season's Sam Maguire cup.

All teams get a shot at the All Ireland playing in a competitive qualifying tournament, which could likely have a profile in line with the NFL since it acts as an All Ireland qualifying tournament.

I think you're getting teams playing more a better games throughout the season.

In each tournament I'd guarantee teams a minimum of 4 matches in the first phases moving on to playoffs."]Nice idea. Nice structure anyway. I would exclude provincial championships however.

bennybunny (Cork) - Posts:3546 - 05/10/2017 18:46:01   2053412

Link

There is absolutely no reason to change the National Football League. It's a very fair competition as it is. There are no calls from anywhere to change it. Some actually want it to be the All-Ireland championship due to the fairness of the format.

When changes are made after the Super 8 experiment, there will be an option of minor changes expanding it to 16 or else they will go down the road of convoluted changes.

legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts:5322 - 06/10/2017 20:24:10   2053660

Link

Keep current 4 graded divs of 8 in the NFL.
Top 4 from each prov only in NFL advance to respective KO Prov SFs.
Merge two Provs in line with 3-yr Prov SF cycle (e.g. Muns Lein 2016).
Each such merger has 4 Prov SFs in an 8-team Pool - with each SF being a team in Group A v one in Group B.
After SFs, place the 4 Finalists in opposite Groups, within Pool.
Teams ultimately play 4 Pool matches (A v B, 2 home, 2 away, Prov Finals as 3rd of 4 matches).
Top 5 of 8 in both Pools to AI KO Last 16.
Prov non-SF 16 also assigned to 2 Pools of 8, each with 2 Groups for 4-match AvB.
Top 5 of 8 in each of 2 Pools to AI KO - Both Top 1s to AI Last 16; Other 8 playoff for 4 spots to complete AI KO Last 16.
Rd of 16 - Top 4 of each Prov Pool (seeded) v Other 8 teams

omahant (USA) - Posts:1042 - 08/10/2017 03:56:22   2053813

Link

there needs to be less NFL games if you also want a league in the championship

valley84 (Westmeath) - Posts:1425 - 08/10/2017 09:40:21   2053825

Link

Replying To omahant:  "Keep current 4 graded divs of 8 in the NFL.
Top 4 from each prov only in NFL advance to respective KO Prov SFs.
Merge two Provs in line with 3-yr Prov SF cycle (e.g. Muns Lein 2016).
Each such merger has 4 Prov SFs in an 8-team Pool - with each SF being a team in Group A v one in Group B.
After SFs, place the 4 Finalists in opposite Groups, within Pool.
Teams ultimately play 4 Pool matches (A v B, 2 home, 2 away, Prov Finals as 3rd of 4 matches).
Top 5 of 8 in both Pools to AI KO Last 16.
Prov non-SF 16 also assigned to 2 Pools of 8, each with 2 Groups for 4-match AvB.
Top 5 of 8 in each of 2 Pools to AI KO - Both Top 1s to AI Last 16; Other 8 playoff for 4 spots to complete AI KO Last 16.
Rd of 16 - Top 4 of each Prov Pool (seeded) v Other 8 teams"
You can't have 4 from each Province making up the top grade.

That's just not fair. So 4 of 9 from Ulster, yet 4 from 5 plus London coming from Connacht.

The top 16 teams in the country has has at least 5 Ulster teams for a long time.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1772 - 08/10/2017 09:58:21   2053828

Link

Replying To valley84:  "there needs to be less NFL games if you also want a league in the championship"
Yep that's my point.

The NFL is a good competition but games have to be sacrificed somewhere for more championship games to be played.

You see the hurling QFs are going to make some room for the Provincial groups.

The NFL format will naturally have to be changed also to accommodate more football championship matches.

As much as I like the league I'd much prefer teams playing most of their games in the primary competition.

It's patently incorrect to say that no one is calling for change to the NFL.

The CPA produced 3 format plans and not one of them kept the current NFL format.

The Intercounty GAA structures and calendar need to be revised as a whole.

It's tricky because of the nature of getting things through congress. If this hurling championship is a success though there will be huge changes implemented for the football.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1772 - 08/10/2017 10:08:22   2053830

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "You can't have 4 from each Province making up the top grade.

That's just not fair. So 4 of 9 from Ulster, yet 4 from 5 plus London coming from Connacht.

The top 16 teams in the country has has at least 5 Ulster teams for a long time."
I think you can't compare Prov Championships - there is no doubt that winning Uls is harder than Conn - so we cancel the existing Conn Championship until they measure up ? Or, wait until Conn gets to 9 teams before they can play ?
If the National Top 5 are all from Uls what's wrong with giving 4 a crack at the Prov title ?
I improve the Prov Championship quality by limiting entry and introducing a group phase that is more equitable for all.
You could keep the Prov derbies in the non-Prov groups as well - say, split Uls 5-9 ranked to two groups, with Conn 5-6 split with one northern Lein team.

omahant (USA) - Posts:1042 - 08/10/2017 20:24:06   2053926

Link

Replying To valley84:  "there needs to be less NFL games if you also want a league in the championship"
Why ? Current Uls Prel Rd winner, if losing the QF, needs to play 11 matches (incl Super 8s) in 2018 to take home Sam - or 9 matches under 2017 format - I have all top teams playing 4 group games before Rd of 16 - 8 matches for Sam.
Even Dubs are expected to play 8 matches in my plan just like the real world in 2018 - the reality is my additional games are spread around more. The pre Rd of 16 playoff rd gives more minnows a chance as well (latter similar to giving SHC Tier 2 a chance of a pre QF Playoff).

omahant (USA) - Posts:1042 - 08/10/2017 20:40:18   2053930

Link

Replying To omahant:  "I think you can't compare Prov Championships - there is no doubt that winning Uls is harder than Conn - so we cancel the existing Conn Championship until they measure up ? Or, wait until Conn gets to 9 teams before they can play ?
If the National Top 5 are all from Uls what's wrong with giving 4 a crack at the Prov title ?
I improve the Prov Championship quality by limiting entry and introducing a group phase that is more equitable for all.
You could keep the Prov derbies in the non-Prov groups as well - say, split Uls 5-9 ranked to two groups, with Conn 5-6 split with one northern Lein team."
No you just don't use your format. It's a huge flaw, that completely voids it as a viable option.

Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts:1772 - 08/10/2017 20:57:51   2053936

Link

Simple solution

Copy how most other sporting organisations across the globe structure their competitions. It will work!

Dont be afraid - Simple is good.

Ban (Westmeath) - Posts:781 - 08/10/2017 22:03:58   2053954

Link

Replying To Whammo86:  "Yep that's my point.

The NFL is a good competition but games have to be sacrificed somewhere for more championship games to be played.

You see the hurling QFs are going to make some room for the Provincial groups.

The NFL format will naturally have to be changed also to accommodate more football championship matches.

As much as I like the league I'd much prefer teams playing most of their games in the primary competition.

It's patently incorrect to say that no one is calling for change to the NFL.

The CPA produced 3 format plans and not one of them kept the current NFL format.

The Intercounty GAA structures and calendar need to be revised as a whole.

It's tricky because of the nature of getting things through congress. If this hurling championship is a success though there will be huge changes implemented for the football."
It's simple enough to reduce the number of games in the NFL. Divide the eight teams in each division into two groups of four. They each play three games with the top team from each group playing an extra game to decide on Divisional champions. The winners of the Div 1 play-off would be crowned National League champions. Promotion and relegation would involve one team from each group (two between each division)
The most games any team would play would be four.

neverright (Roscommon) - Posts:978 - 08/10/2017 23:20:08   2053967

Link

  • 1