National - Cork vs Waterford (Hurling)

Replying To Pinkie:  "All does not sound well in the Waterford camp unfortunately. There is much more in this team, but they have till Saturday week to find it and the draw might not be kind to them.
Get over Saturday week, they might be back on the horse, lose it and its back to the drawing board.
i have to wonder, did Derek McGrath giving up his job affect this team? Are they suffering from analysis paralysis? If they put Ozzie Gleeson at centre forward, and build a forward unit around him, they have a chance of getting back into the championship.
It could be a short year for the Deise, but I hope I am wrong."
Time will tell but in general people are too quick to write the epitaph for this mostly young Waterford team. They are in the same place now as Tipp, Kilkenny and others. Beaten by a better team (Cork) on the day and not taking from that win it could be different with a penalty call, miss. It could also been a blow out only for Stephen O Keeffe.
Some of the vitriol written about them on other forum's id down right mean and is not fair to any team of players. In general you do not get this from Cork supporters. For many decades its been fun having the banter and good humour with them at games.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts:73 - 22/06/2017 15:15:51   2003599

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "There in no need to be rude. Every team that go through a turn over of players will not necessarily win an All- Ireland. Like your Dublin team also. Does that mean they should throw in the towel and leave it to the usual top team contenders ? This knock team. knock players, knock managers seems to be built in to the Irish physic. Waterford may not have won an All-Ireland since 1959 but like other teams have made a significant contribution to the game."
Im just pointing out the fallacy of saying they are in transition. You only say a team is in transition where they had a good level of success and then a lot of their players from that era retire, and then they're working in a lot of young players into the team. Waterford are not in transition. In fact they are having their most successful period in modern times. Two all Ireland semi finals in a row, two league finals in last 3 years winning one. All with their current squad. Their performance in 2016 all Ireland drawn semi final was their best ever performance since I've been watching hurling since mid 90s.

HurlingSnob (Dublin) - Posts:162 - 22/06/2017 15:24:19   2003605

Link

Replying To Killarney.87:  "That's not a very constructive comment.

How do you define success then? Winning the all-Ireland? So 12 hurling teams will be a failure this year because they don't win the All-Ireland.

Success to me is getting the very best out of yourself. Overall Derek McGrath has done a wonderful job with this team. When he took over they didn't look like they would see another semi final for a awhile. He has brought them to back to back semi finals and won the league for only the 3rd time in their history.

I think you are being disrespectful to a good man and a county that has worked hard over the last 20 years to get back to the top table."
No, I just disagree that they are/were in transition. You have to come from somewhere that's different than where you are afterwards to be in transition.

HurlingSnob (Dublin) - Posts:162 - 22/06/2017 15:45:04   2003618

Link

Replying To HurlingSnob:  "Im just pointing out the fallacy of saying they are in transition. You only say a team is in transition where they had a good level of success and then a lot of their players from that era retire, and then they're working in a lot of young players into the team. Waterford are not in transition. In fact they are having their most successful period in modern times. Two all Ireland semi finals in a row, two league finals in last 3 years winning one. All with their current squad. Their performance in 2016 all Ireland drawn semi final was their best ever performance since I've been watching hurling since mid 90s."
A team is in transition when most of the team of an era has retired and has nothing to do with success. You obviously don't know the Waterford team that won several Munster championships, a league, contested All Ireland semi- finals and at least made it to a final. Let me give you some names. Seamus Pendergast, Declan Pendergast, Eoin Murphy, James Murray, Tony Brown, Fergal Hartley, Dave Bennett, Ken McGrath, Eoin Kelly, Dan Shanahan, Stephen Molumphy, Shane Walsh. Anthony KIrwan, Paul Flynn, Jack Kennedy, Clinton Hennessy. This is more than a team and many of them household names and all stars. The only one left is the Brick and Kevin Moran to a lesser extent.
This surely is a team that has transitioned and now made up of mind you 2013 minor winners and 2016 under 21 winners.
You took a shot at them about All Ireland's not won and not going to be won from behind your key board.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts:73 - 22/06/2017 16:33:19   2003639

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "A team is in transition when most of the team of an era has retired and has nothing to do with success. You obviously don't know the Waterford team that won several Munster championships, a league, contested All Ireland semi- finals and at least made it to a final. Let me give you some names. Seamus Pendergast, Declan Pendergast, Eoin Murphy, James Murray, Tony Brown, Fergal Hartley, Dave Bennett, Ken McGrath, Eoin Kelly, Dan Shanahan, Stephen Molumphy, Shane Walsh. Anthony KIrwan, Paul Flynn, Jack Kennedy, Clinton Hennessy. This is more than a team and many of them household names and all stars. The only one left is the Brick and Kevin Moran to a lesser extent.
This surely is a team that has transitioned and now made up of mind you 2013 minor winners and 2016 under 21 winners.
You took a shot at them about All Ireland's not won and not going to be won from behind your key board."
O I forgot the biggest one John Mullane.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts:73 - 22/06/2017 16:56:35   2003649

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "A team is in transition when most of the team of an era has retired and has nothing to do with success. You obviously don't know the Waterford team that won several Munster championships, a league, contested All Ireland semi- finals and at least made it to a final. Let me give you some names. Seamus Pendergast, Declan Pendergast, Eoin Murphy, James Murray, Tony Brown, Fergal Hartley, Dave Bennett, Ken McGrath, Eoin Kelly, Dan Shanahan, Stephen Molumphy, Shane Walsh. Anthony KIrwan, Paul Flynn, Jack Kennedy, Clinton Hennessy. This is more than a team and many of them household names and all stars. The only one left is the Brick and Kevin Moran to a lesser extent.
This surely is a team that has transitioned and now made up of mind you 2013 minor winners and 2016 under 21 winners.
You took a shot at them about All Ireland's not won and not going to be won from behind your key board."
Some of those players are retired 10 years and a lot of them retired 6+ years ago. So you can't be referencing them still and saying that's where Waterford are in transition from. And the 2016 Waterford team were far better than any of the teams those players played on. Yes there were some great Munster championship games in their era 2003,2004 etc but they never really contended for an all Ireland. 2008 team got to an all Ireland but were not as good as 2016 team in my opinion.

HurlingSnob (Dublin) - Posts:162 - 22/06/2017 17:08:01   2003661

Link

Replying To HurlingSnob:  "Some of those players are retired 10 years and a lot of them retired 6+ years ago. So you can't be referencing them still and saying that's where Waterford are in transition from. And the 2016 Waterford team were far better than any of the teams those players played on. Yes there were some great Munster championship games in their era 2003,2004 etc but they never really contended for an all Ireland. 2008 team got to an all Ireland but were not as good as 2016 team in my opinion."
All of these players over lapped with each other plus others I did not include and are not 10 years retired . The present team began to take formation as a group together at a younger than normal age for senior players (a few exceptions) about 3 years ago.. As stated with minors and under 21's . They are still In "transitional" stage with players like the Lyon's brothers, the Roches, Harney, Prunty, Foran, Devine,Hogan, Nolan and others. Patrick Curran a real talent who will establish himself. Shane Bennett who is still under 21 and Stephen Bennett who has just recovered from numerous hip operations.
Colin Dunford who DJ Carey has revealed is still young.
Not that any of this can guarantee success but it depends on what is looked on as success. Only one team can win the All-Ireland every year. With out the efforts of the rest this would be meaningless. Writing off Waterford for this year and the distance future smacks of putting the under dod down just in case they are successful bound. Some of the rhetoric towards them this week is over the line and not just objective analysis.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts:73 - 22/06/2017 19:00:16   2003704

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "All of these players over lapped with each other plus others I did not include and are not 10 years retired . The present team began to take formation as a group together at a younger than normal age for senior players (a few exceptions) about 3 years ago.. As stated with minors and under 21's . They are still In "transitional" stage with players like the Lyon's brothers, the Roches, Harney, Prunty, Foran, Devine,Hogan, Nolan and others. Patrick Curran a real talent who will establish himself. Shane Bennett who is still under 21 and Stephen Bennett who has just recovered from numerous hip operations.
Colin Dunford who DJ Carey has revealed is still young.
Not that any of this can guarantee success but it depends on what is looked on as success. Only one team can win the All-Ireland every year. With out the efforts of the rest this would be meaningless. Writing off Waterford for this year and the distance future smacks of putting the under dod down just in case they are successful bound. Some of the rhetoric towards them this week is over the line and not just objective analysis."
Waterford have great players coming through and they will be successful.I wouldn't be convinced that Derek McGrath is the man to lead them forward.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts:446 - 22/06/2017 19:17:10   2003711

Link

Replying To endgame:  "Waterford have great players coming through and they will be successful.I wouldn't be convinced that Derek McGrath is the man to lead them forward."
Derek himself has stated from the start its is someone else who will take them to the top. He will probably never get the recognition he deserves. However the players who he worked with from his secondary school and other schools seem to respect him. Who better to judge him.

Canuck (Waterford) - Posts:73 - 22/06/2017 22:02:21   2003771

Link

Replying To Canuck:  "Derek himself has stated from the start its is someone else who will take them to the top. He will probably never get the recognition he deserves. However the players who he worked with from his secondary school and other schools seem to respect him. Who better to judge him."
I respect him as well and he's given Waterford huge commitment but the reality is that the team are underachieving under his management.There's no getting away from that.Waterford have quality players coming through and they need to make the most of their golden generation.They had a brilliant U 21 team last year that blew everyone away.

endgame (Roscommon) - Posts:446 - 23/06/2017 18:00:36   2004123

Link