HoganStand GAA Football and Hurling

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Hurling League Structure

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I think the current structure should be left in place. Has the standard and competitiveness of division 2A counties improved? Is this current stucture more exciting than an 8 team top division? Would an 8 team top division simply result in one of the elite 9 would be playing at a lower level? Would an 8 team top division result in the same teams being relegated and promoted every second year? Is the only problem with the current structure that there is a clear split within division 1B? What structure is best suited to getting Laois, Antrim, Carlow and Westmeath etc. up to competing at the standard at the top of 1B? hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 06/04/2017 13:47:43 1976495 Link
I think a Div One and Div Two both with 10 teams where all play 6 matches might be the best solution. Divide each 10 into 3 seeding pots of 3 (top),, 4 (middle), 3 (bottom) seeds. Draw 1 from each pot to Groups A, B, C of 4, 3, 3 teams, respectively. A plays B and C (6 matches) with B and C playing own group round robins as well (2 + 4.vA, 6 matches). Top 6 of 10 team common league table to KO - 1v6, 2v5, 3v4 - highest seed winner of the 3 gets a bye to the Final. Bottom 4 to KO relegation SFs - loser of the losers, 1 team down to Div 2. Div 2 KO champ is the 1 team that goes up to Div 1. Div 2 could start with current bottom 2 of 1B, top 2 of 2B, and all of 2A. Does this work ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 07/04/2017 05:35:16 1976750 Link
Replying To hurlinspuds: "I think the current structure should be left in place. Has the standard and competitiveness of division 2A counties improved? Is this current stucture more exciting than an 8 team top division? Would an 8 team top division simply result in one of the elite 9 would be playing at a lower level? Would an 8 team top division result in the same teams being relegated and promoted every second year? Is the only problem with the current structure that there is a clear split within division 1B? What structure is best suited to getting Laois, Antrim, Carlow and Westmeath etc. up to competing at the standard at the top of 1B?" What if they seeded the league some way where 1a and b were generally equal quality and 2a and b etc so for example 1a could be (tipp waterford clare dublin offaly) and 1b (Kilkenny galway limerick cork wexford) etc and it would be considered one division with the bottom team in each group going down (2 down) or the bottom 4 play relegation semis. The the 2 finalists in division 2 goes up into separate groups of whatever. Or even the leagues could be seeded each year based on championship.. blackspot91 (Limerick) - Posts: 1055 - 07/04/2017 06:41:11 1976751 Link
Yes, seeded based on the championship would be a good idea I think. Top team from division 1 could play 2nd team in division 2 and vice versa in the league semi finals. Divisions based on 2016 championship would look like this: Tipp KK Galway Waterford Wexford Clare Limerick Cork Laois Dublin Offaly Westmeath Kerry Carlow Only 2 games extra in league format and abolish the 1/4 finals. Tipp v Kerry might end in a hammering but overall I think this format would still be good for weaker counties. The main concern for hurling at the moment should be to get the weaker teams of 1B under the current format up to the standard of the elite 9. hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 07/04/2017 14:11:23 1976887 Link
Replying To hurlinspuds: "Yes, seeded based on the championship would be a good idea I think. Top team from division 1 could play 2nd team in division 2 and vice versa in the league semi finals. Divisions based on 2016 championship would look like this: Tipp KK Galway Waterford Wexford Clare Limerick Cork Laois Dublin Offaly Westmeath Kerry Carlow Only 2 games extra in league format and abolish the 1/4 finals. Tipp v Kerry might end in a hammering but overall I think this format would still be good for weaker counties. The main concern for hurling at the moment should be to get the weaker teams of 1B under the current format up to the standard of the elite 9." To eliminate the potential Tipp/Kerry hammering - merge your 6 seeding pots with my idea in a 12-team version - Group A has pots 1 and 6 (4 teams); Group B has pots 2 and 5 (4 teams); and Group C has pots 3 and 4 (4 teams). Schedule where A hosts B; B hosts C; and C hosts A (all play 8 matches). Then Top 6 of 12 to KO as before; and Bottom 6 of 12 could play similar Relegation KO (7v12; 8v11; and 9v10, with lowest of 3 losers to the 'Final'). What do you think ? omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 07/04/2017 14:53:36 1976910 Link
The only change I would like to see in the LEAGUE structure is that there should be Home and Away fixtures so that we see more hurling. I would also like RTE/TG4/Eir show Div 1B matches in their highlights. As for the Hurling Championship it has to go to a Super 8 format, again for the same reasons as mentioned above, more great hurling matches for people to watch either Live or on TV. Brian_Coyote (Antrim) - Posts: 346 - 07/04/2017 16:02:43 1976939 Link
Replying To omahant: "To eliminate the potential Tipp/Kerry hammering - merge your 6 seeding pots with my idea in a 12-team version - Group A has pots 1 and 6 (4 teams); Group B has pots 2 and 5 (4 teams); and Group C has pots 3 and 4 (4 teams). Schedule where A hosts B; B hosts C; and C hosts A (all play 8 matches). Then Top 6 of 12 to KO as before; and Bottom 6 of 12 could play similar Relegation KO (7v12; 8v11; and 9v10, with lowest of 3 losers to the 'Final'). What do you think ?" I understand your knock out phase but I'm not sure I get the initial stage. Could you explain it with actual counties, might make it easier to get. Sorry and thanks! hurlinspuds (Cork) - Posts: 1494 - 07/04/2017 16:12:11 1976942 Link
Replying To hurlinspuds: "I understand your knock out phase but I'm not sure I get the initial stage. Could you explain it with actual counties, might make it easier to get. Sorry and thanks!" Pot A Tipp Kilkenny Kerry Westmeath Pot B Waterford Galway Limerick Offaly Pot C Cork Wexford Clare Dublin You play everyone outside your pot. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 07/04/2017 16:49:49 1976953 Link
Div 1A Tipp Cork W'Ford KK Clare Div 1B Dublin Wexford Galway Limerick Offaly Div 1C Kerry Laois Carlow Antrim Kildare Westmeath Top 4 in Div shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 07/04/2017 19:25:26 1976982 Link
Div 1A Tipp Cork W'Ford KK Clare Div 1B Dublin Wexford Galway Limerick Offaly Div 1C Kerry Laois Carlow Antrim Kildare Westmeath Each team play each other once and 2 wildcard rounds where you play a team from another division One up and down in each division Top 4 in 1A qualify for Quarter Finals Top 3 in 1B qualify for Quarter Finals Top 1 in 1C qualify for Quarter Finals shea (Kerry) - Posts: 409 - 07/04/2017 19:30:27 1976986 Link
The hurling league is a tough puzzle to solve. The quarter-finals and relegation playoffs are there to guarantee all teams get 6 games. The current structure while it's not ideal is generating better revenue than previous formats. It's the main reason it's being kept as it is. The counties are not voting or agreeing on any other changes. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 07/04/2017 21:33:51 1977012 Link
Replying To hurlinspuds: "I think the current structure should be left in place. Has the standard and competitiveness of division 2A counties improved? Is this current stucture more exciting than an 8 team top division? Would an 8 team top division simply result in one of the elite 9 would be playing at a lower level? Would an 8 team top division result in the same teams being relegated and promoted every second year? Is the only problem with the current structure that there is a clear split within division 1B? What structure is best suited to getting Laois, Antrim, Carlow and Westmeath etc. up to competing at the standard at the top of 1B?" Totally agree with you Spuds. This has been a great hurling league (Division 1) year, with more to come. Plenty of competitive games, no team outclassed, though Laois & Kerry took a couple of beatings, they bounced back. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Cockney_Cat (UK) - Posts: 2460 - 07/04/2017 23:38:31 1977044 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Pot A Tipp Kilkenny Kerry Westmeath Pot B Waterford Galway Limerick Offaly Pot C Cork Wexford Clare Dublin You play everyone outside your pot." Thanks, Wham - I got to this too late. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 08/04/2017 04:48:53 1977053 Link
Replying To Whammo86: "Pot A Tipp Kilkenny Kerry Westmeath Pot B Waterford Galway Limerick Offaly Pot C Cork Wexford Clare Dublin You play everyone outside your pot." ....And as Kerry/Westmeath could still face hammerings v Waterford/Galway etc - maybe best to keep the Elite club at 10 (9 + 1 yoyo) like I have at the beginning ? And for the Liam Cup - I like my 5v5, with top 3 in each group forming opposite halves of the KO Draw. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 08/04/2017 05:07:56 1977054 Link
Where did this idea of an Elite Club of 9 (or 10?) come from? It's notions like this that have held back the development of hurling nationwide- the "traditionalists" use it as a way to maintain the status quo. Surely four divisions of 8 would be the fairest option- if you're good enough, you'll stay at the elite level, if you're not, you won't! football first (None) - Posts: 1259 - 08/04/2017 08:37:27 1977061 Link
The teams ranked 11th to 14th have to play the top 10 at some stage. Kerry's level is the provincial qualifier group. While the games were tough, it was a good experience to play the likes of Limerick and Galway. Antrim have rightly earned promotion for winning 2A. They've earned at least a year of higher class games. That's what the league should reward. While I'm in favour of traditional divisions of 8, the second division of 8 won't provide sufficient quality of games for the fair standard the 9th and 10th county might be at. They could try and implement a top 10 playing 6 rounds with the top 4 progressing to semi-finals. The 10th team upon being relegated however will complain and probably be listened to. Having the top 12 split into two ranked groups is a good idea. The tricky part is an ideal format with an appropriate number of games within that structure. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/04/2017 08:45:46 1977062 Link
Have a National league second tier act as a qualifier for the championship. So top 6 qualified and they play a 5 game National league division 1 as a warm up competition. Have a second tier of say 2 groups of 6 playing for 4 places in the AI hurling league. You've a 10 team AI hurling league where top 4 go into the knockout rounds. Top 6 secure qualification for the following season. Munster and Leinster championships can get incorporated in some shape or form. A Provincial champion not in the top 4 in the league gets a playoff game with the 3rd or 4th place team from the AI hurling league. Whammo86 (Antrim) - Posts: 4222 - 08/04/2017 11:24:53 1977096 Link
Leinster could run a similar provincial league as Munster have. If teams are getting 4 or 5 provincial leagues games, it might be more acceptable to play only 5 regular national league games. The top two from 1A should advance directly to the league semi-finals. The top two from 1B should be promoted along with taking on the middle two 1A teams in the league quarter-finals. The bottom two in 1A should drop to 1B. It'll create more fluid movement between the two Division 1 groups that are providing a platform to progress to the league knockout stage. The bottom team in 1B and all other divisions should be relegated, being replaced by the division winners from the next tier down. legendzxix (Kerry) - Posts: 7842 - 08/04/2017 12:50:14 1977108 Link
Replying To football first: "Where did this idea of an Elite Club of 9 (or 10?) come from? It's notions like this that have held back the development of hurling nationwide- the "traditionalists" use it as a way to maintain the status quo. Surely four divisions of 8 would be the fairest option- if you're good enough, you'll stay at the elite level, if you're not, you won't!" No offense was intended here - I just feel there is a quality cutoff at 9 at the present time - as you can see, I am proposing a Top 10 and Next 10, so I am putting a pyramid in place, so there is no closed shop - so any team can rise from their current status to the top table. If fact with my Liam Cup 5v5, you could create the same for the Next 10 with 5v5, including Ring teams and the weakest two from current NHL 1B. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 08/04/2017 20:56:42 1977221 Link
Replying To legendzxix: "Leinster could run a similar provincial league as Munster have. If teams are getting 4 or 5 provincial leagues games, it might be more acceptable to play only 5 regular national league games. The top two from 1A should advance directly to the league semi-finals. The top two from 1B should be promoted along with taking on the middle two 1A teams in the league quarter-finals. The bottom two in 1A should drop to 1B. It'll create more fluid movement between the two Division 1 groups that are providing a platform to progress to the league knockout stage. The bottom team in 1B and all other divisions should be relegated, being replaced by the division winners from the next tier down." I like that NHL 4+2 to KO, with 2 up/ 2 down. For the Championship, I kike the 8-match Prov Championships (Last 5, Lein/Muns) forming two 5-team groups for the Liam Cup. Lein QF winner to Group A, their SF/QF opponents to Group B. Muns QF winner to B, their SF/QF opponents to A. Finaally, two SF1 winners put in the group oppositive their Final/SF1 opponents. Ultimately, the 5 teams in Group A play the 5 in B. AI SFs are 1st in A v QF winner (2nd or 3rd in A) and 1st in B v QF winner (2nd or 3rd in B). Or, option - 4 wild cards to QFs instead to lessen dead rubber risk. You could have teams ranked 9 to 16 play in two 4-team groups to determine two grioup winners to advance to Lein Last 5. omahant (USA) - Posts: 2584 - 08/04/2017 21:34:09 1977234 Link