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After the Monaghan and Dublin match on Sunday and reading the article (link below) on the development of games in our county. I got to thinking (I know, I know) is it realistic for a county like Monaghan to stay competitive with the likes of Dublin
http://www.gaa.ie/features/feature/monaghan-remain-busy-planning-for-the-future/
On the face of it looking at the population of the two counties, Dublin 1,300,000 and Monaghan 60,000 (approx.), you would have to say no way. But when you dig deeper it may not be as implausible as first seems. The article states that "During the 2016 GAA Cul Camps 10,251 participated in Dublin, 2,789 in Monaghan. Back in 2006 5,713 attended in the capital, while Monaghan only had 865."
I cross referenced the figures with the total potential population according to the CSO census, IE primary school going children, Dublin have approx. 123,000 children in that age group and Monaghan have 6,900. What all that means is that, according to the Cul camp figures in the article, Dublin had an 8.5% (10,251) participation rate while Monaghan had a whopping 40.5% (2,789). This clearly indicates two things:
That the competition from other sports is very real in Dublin and that using Dublin's overall population as an argument, while it is distinctly advantageous, is not as robust as I first thought. Monaghan is a football mad County and that 40% participation rate is almost guaranteed, it is what we do with that 40% that determines the quality our older aged and senior teams.
The article sites how well run the development of the games has come-on over the past ten years in Monaghan. This development can only happen with the support and input of parents, volunteers at club, school and county level, but the county board have put in place a clear strategy that brings these young players on to inter county level when they reach 14 or so. This is exactly what is happening in Dublin albeit at a much larger scale. The hard work and a clear strategy set out by the county board, which aims to be totally inclusive is starting to bear fruits and there should be no reason for this not to continue. Sunday clearly showed that we are not there yet though , on the day we had the game and the team to win but we just didn't have the squad.
Basically what you need is a squad of 30 or so of a certain level at minor, U20 and senior, and even with a starting pool of 2,789 that is very achievable if the development strategy is there throughout as we have currently.
The other issue of ability relating directly to the two counties is no argument either. I know first hand that juveniles in Dublin are required to split training and matches equally between Hurling and Football, In Monaghan it is all football. So lets say an U10 team (football) from Scotstown trains twice a week and plays at the weekend, every week, and the same U10 team in Raheny only does so on alternate weeks, surely the Scotstown football team are further on in their development than the one in Raheny. Dublin with all their resources have not reached a minor final since 2012, Kerry have dominated that scene since by and large.
Kerry as we know is also a football mad county with little in the way of competition from other sports, and the focus here is primarily on football, as is Mayo. It would be interesting to see the Cul camp figures for these counties. As a Monaghan supporter I would be just as concerned about Kerry and Mayo as about Dublin. But I firmly believe the foundations are there so that we can compete in the future, it requires hard work and everyone involved being on board to maximise the resources we have.
mhunicean_abu (Monaghan) - Posts: 1044 - 04/04/2017 13:23:15
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Replying To mhunicean_abu: "After the Monaghan and Dublin match on Sunday and reading the article (link below) on the development of games in our county. I got to thinking (I know, I know) is it realistic for a county like Monaghan to stay competitive with the likes of Dublin http://www.gaa.ie/features/feature/monaghan-remain-busy-planning-for-the-future/On the face of it looking at the population of the two counties, Dublin 1,300,000 and Monaghan 60,000 (approx.), you would have to say no way. But when you dig deeper it may not be as implausible as first seems. The article states that "During the 2016 GAA Cul Camps 10,251 participated in Dublin, 2,789 in Monaghan. Back in 2006 5,713 attended in the capital, while Monaghan only had 865." I cross referenced the figures with the total potential population according to the CSO census, IE primary school going children, Dublin have approx. 123,000 children in that age group and Monaghan have 6,900. What all that means is that, according to the Cul camp figures in the article, Dublin had an 8.5% (10,251) participation rate while Monaghan had a whopping 40.5% (2,789). This clearly indicates two things: That the competition from other sports is very real in Dublin and that using Dublin's overall population as an argument, while it is distinctly advantageous, is not as robust as I first thought. Monaghan is a football mad County and that 40% participation rate is almost guaranteed, it is what we do with that 40% that determines the quality our older aged and senior teams. The article sites how well run the development of the games has come-on over the past ten years in Monaghan. This development can only happen with the support and input of parents, volunteers at club, school and county level, but the county board have put in place a clear strategy that brings these young players on to inter county level when they reach 14 or so. This is exactly what is happening in Dublin albeit at a much larger scale. The hard work and a clear strategy set out by the county board, which aims to be totally inclusive is starting to bear fruits and there should be no reason for this not to continue. Sunday clearly showed that we are not there yet though , on the day we had the game and the team to win but we just didn't have the squad. Basically what you need is a squad of 30 or so of a certain level at minor, U20 and senior, and even with a starting pool of 2,789 that is very achievable if the development strategy is there throughout as we have currently. The other issue of ability relating directly to the two counties is no argument either. I know first hand that juveniles in Dublin are required to split training and matches equally between Hurling and Football, In Monaghan it is all football. So lets say an U10 team (football) from Scotstown trains twice a week and plays at the weekend, every week, and the same U10 team in Raheny only does so on alternate weeks, surely the Scotstown football team are further on in their development than the one in Raheny. Dublin with all their resources have not reached a minor final since 2012, Kerry have dominated that scene since by and large. Kerry as we know is also a football mad county with little in the way of competition from other sports, and the focus here is primarily on football, as is Mayo. It would be interesting to see the Cul camp figures for these counties. As a Monaghan supporter I would be just as concerned about Kerry and Mayo as about Dublin. But I firmly believe the foundations are there so that we can compete in the future, it requires hard work and everyone involved being on board to maximise the resources we have."
Jackeen (Dublin) - Posts: 4097 - 04/04/2017 13:41:21
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Given their financial , marketing and population power economic advantages and thus the weakening state of rural Ireland I think its impossible for most if not all to compete realistically with Dublin over any length of time.
Sure in a one-off game they can and will get caught but if we look at 3, 5, 10 year intervals they will be dominant in each going forward and I don't think the situation is going to better for the rest of the country unless there are significant changes brought about by the GAA.
I dont think 1 team dominating for the next 50+ years is healthy for the game in general
KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 04/04/2017 14:46:52
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A well reasoned post and the first Kerry reaction is Dublin = money.
The bitter head in the sand will get us nowhere
witnof (Dublin) - Posts: 1604 - 04/04/2017 15:05:24
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Fiction. Every team is beatable.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 04/04/2017 15:07:52
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Replying To witnof: "A well reasoned post and the first Kerry reaction is Dublin = money.
The bitter head in the sand will get us nowhere" So you just want to hide away from the facts and what has happened since 2005
Sad but predictable......
KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 04/04/2017 15:13:45
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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Given their financial , marketing and population power economic advantages and thus the weakening state of rural Ireland I think its impossible for most if not all to compete realistically with Dublin over any length of time.
Sure in a one-off game they can and will get caught but if we look at 3, 5, 10 year intervals they will be dominant in each going forward and I don't think the situation is going to better for the rest of the country unless there are significant changes brought about by the GAA.
I dont think 1 team dominating for the next 50+ years is healthy for the game in general" Do you keep the same posts saved somewhere handy so whenever anything about Dublin comes up you have them ready to go? A quick copy and paste job, I'm guessing you work in the civil service
Otherwise it must take up a hell of an amount of time of your day posting this over and over again for probably more than one hoganstand profile?
keithlemon (Australia) - Posts: 920 - 04/04/2017 15:20:39
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Replying To GreenandRed: "Fiction. Every team is beatable." Too true.
rorysboys (Donegal) - Posts: 2404 - 04/04/2017 15:30:54
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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Given their financial , marketing and population power economic advantages and thus the weakening state of rural Ireland I think its impossible for most if not all to compete realistically with Dublin over any length of time.
Sure in a one-off game they can and will get caught but if we look at 3, 5, 10 year intervals they will be dominant in each going forward and I don't think the situation is going to better for the rest of the country unless there are significant changes brought about by the GAA.
I dont think 1 team dominating for the next 50+ years is healthy for the game in general" You're right. Time to merge Cork and Kerry.
Mickmick (Dublin) - Posts: 104 - 04/04/2017 15:51:40
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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "Given their financial , marketing and population power economic advantages and thus the weakening state of rural Ireland I think its impossible for most if not all to compete realistically with Dublin over any length of time.
Sure in a one-off game they can and will get caught but if we look at 3, 5, 10 year intervals they will be dominant in each going forward and I don't think the situation is going to better for the rest of the country unless there are significant changes brought about by the GAA.
I dont think 1 team dominating for the next 50+ years is healthy for the game in general" With all this financial, population and marketing power etc etc etc, how come we're not dominating at inter county level hurling?
GaaGaa78 (UK) - Posts: 285 - 04/04/2017 15:59:47
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Replying To Jackeen: "Very good post. Of course these facts will be overlooked completely by the usual suspects on Hoganstand." Case in point Jackeen
See above.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 04/04/2017 15:59:54
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Replying To GaaGaa78: "With all this financial, population and marketing power etc etc etc, how come we're not dominating at inter county level hurling?" I will tell you why Talent , your at nothing without it , all the money in the world means nothing without it , a point made earlier how many of the cream Kerry footballers have ever held a hurl , giving equal time to both codes ? from age 8 to 16 onto minor fixture calendar divided equally ?
We produced four teams over a two year period at minor that got to all Ireland finals because they were TALENTED, since then good players have been produced no team to come close , but if your looking for lazy analysis Kerry's your home since the Master disappeared
Damothedub (Dublin) - Posts: 5193 - 04/04/2017 16:53:38
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Replying To GaaGaa78: "With all this financial, population and marketing power etc etc etc, how come we're not dominating at inter county level hurling?" That surely is a question to be directed at your hurling board. Maybe they can come up with a reason that does not involve losing players to the football teams.
neverright (Roscommon) - Posts: 1648 - 04/04/2017 17:38:02
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Replying To KYTotalFootball: "So you just want to hide away from the facts and what has happened since 2005
Sad but predictable......" 2006?
2007?
2009?
2014?
I'm fairly sure that these years were after 2005.
GreenandRed (Mayo) - Posts: 7344 - 04/04/2017 17:46:52
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Replying To GaaGaa78: "With all this financial, population and marketing power etc etc etc, how come we're not dominating at inter county level hurling?" Because we can't produce the best hurlers despite all the advantages, the money, population, AIG spins, cars, food etc and unfortunately the hurling super power counties don't seem to be so defeatist as compared to their footballing counterparts
Unfortunately just because you can afford a set of Ping golf clubs, doesn't mean you can hit a ball, that takes natural ability and hard work, and all useless without a good swing.
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 04/04/2017 17:49:11
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Replying To Damothedub: "I will tell you why Talent , your at nothing without it , all the money in the world means nothing without it , a point made earlier how many of the cream Kerry footballers have ever held a hurl , giving equal time to both codes ? from age 8 to 16 onto minor fixture calendar divided equally ?
We produced four teams over a two year period at minor that got to all Ireland finals because they were TALENTED, since then good players have been produced no team to come close , but if your looking for lazy analysis Kerry's your home since the Master disappeared" Spot on
Simple as that
jimbodub (Dublin) - Posts: 20600 - 04/04/2017 17:52:35
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Did anyone happen to read the brilliant opening post. If anything it shows the rationale for the focus in development funding in the County for Gaelic Games.
To the opening poster, i believe it is more then possible a county like Mongahan could easily win an All Ireland, Doengal, Down and Tyroen did it. Kilkenny do it in the Hurling consistently. You need the structures and also that bit of luck with a truly gifted generation. nature and Nurture.
What very few will acknowledge is that its harder for Northern Counties to win an All Ireland, when you talk of advantages Munster, Leinester and Connaghct teams have a distinct advantage. Teams from Ulster are hugely marginlised against as opposed to every other province given that some of the best teams in Ireland play in that province. If Monagahan had played in the Munster and Connaght championships in recent years they would have had as relative success as your Kerrys and Mayos.
The biggest handicap to teams like Monaghan getting to the top table is the inquality of the provincial system in my opinion. Its a poorer championship in the latter stages because of this inequality.
TheUsername (Dublin) - Posts: 4445 - 04/04/2017 18:05:16
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Replying To GaaGaa78: "With all this financial, population and marketing power etc etc etc, how come we're not dominating at inter county level hurling?" Where was Dublin Hurling before all this money came in? On a par with the likes of Laois, Kerry , Westmeath, Antrim etc
Now the pick of those level teams wouldn't come close to even competing with Dublin in hurling and have no hope of doing so either going forward
The fact that the Football team has become so attractive from a Marketing perspective has actually stopped the Dublin Hurling becoming even stronger as there have been a lot of Hurlers who would rather be number 30 on the Football than be a potential star on the Hurling team
15 years ago KIlkenny, Tipperary would eat Dublin alive in 2nd gear, not the case anymore
KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 04/04/2017 18:14:18
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Replying To Mickmick: "You're right. Time to merge Cork and Kerry." Yeah lets destroy the identity and fabric of every county in the country just to try and entertain Dublin fans who are bored of beating teams with a fraction of the population and resources so easily
KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 04/04/2017 18:19:12
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Replying To Damothedub: "I will tell you why Talent , your at nothing without it , all the money in the world means nothing without it , a point made earlier how many of the cream Kerry footballers have ever held a hurl , giving equal time to both codes ? from age 8 to 16 onto minor fixture calendar divided equally ?
We produced four teams over a two year period at minor that got to all Ireland finals because they were TALENTED, since then good players have been produced no team to come close , but if your looking for lazy analysis Kerry's your home since the Master disappeared" Many of our villages can barely manage to put out 15 on a Sunday morning to play, even less so at Underage level where amalgamations are rampant and yet we have people moralising and demeaning our efforts
This reality isn't confined to Kerry happening all over Ireland , some people just can't understand and comprehend the hardship involved
KYTotalFootball (Kerry) - Posts: 280 - 04/04/2017 18:28:01
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